And that's another business about to lose all their customers, if you can't even feign a customer first attitude and you bend over with zero resistance to anyone with a badge then why the fuck would people trust you with their assests?
When I bought a safe, electronic just seemed ridiculous. Just extra batteries to deal with. It's not that hard to put in a simple combination on a mechanical lock, I can have it open in 15 seconds without trying to go fast. Electronic safe is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Mine is just a fire safe too, it wouldn't be that tough to keep out someone with tools. A big expensive high security safe? I don't want no electronic shit.
My guns aren't even in a safe. I don't see the value if you aren't trying to lock them up from people welcome in your home. They are right next to the safe though. The way I see if they've made it that far either I'm not home or I've already been shot and killed. I keep a safe to protect documents, backups, and cash from fire mainly.
I'd maybe consider going for a dual lock combo with a mechanical and electronic one. Both kinds of locks likely have their advantages and disadvantages, security-wise, so having a layer of each would likely cancel out most disadvantages.
Although in both cases I suspect the manufacturers have a master key, and I don't feel confident enough to try a DIY job on something as sophisticated as a safe locking mechanism.
The issue with safes and locks in general is the failure state.
Electronic locks can fail open or fail closed. Mechanical locks can only fail closed.
Double the locks on your safe is double the vulnerabilities to attack.
Master key systems are expensive to implement and add a huge vulnerability to locks. Lose a master key and a whole product line is potentially compromised.
If I am going to buy a safe, I want it to come with the promise that I am the only one who can open it. If I lose my key, it is going to require a specialist or a grinder.
I'd be tempted to go out of my way to get a top of the line safe that's a pain to bust into, and leave it completely empty, just so I can see the frustrated reaction from the Feds. Maybe leave something in there like a clown nose, just to troll them further.
I have an old one of those cheap file safes in a closet. I figured if I am ever burglarized it's a diversion, maybe they think they got my safe and quit looking around that hard. Only thing in it is a picture of Nancy Pelosi that I got in the mail as some sort of campaign prop back during Covid "14 days means eternity" time.
If the cost of being able to buy and sell safes on the 2nd hand market is defeating the entire purpose of a safe in the first place, probably best we just not have a 2nd hand market.
A warrant isn't carte blanche for the feds to do whatever the fuck they want in your house. If they actually thought the safe had some dark secrets (they don't), they would have to subpoena Liberty Safe for the access codes.
If the options are "defeat the point of having a safe in the first place" or "forgetful idiot gets fucked by his incompetence," I'm gonna just say that guy loses his safe and learns a lesson. Every time we try to have a quality of life barrier net for everybody, it just gets exploited by the worst people.
Also, the company had the option of just going to jail (or paying the fine). They weren't powerless here, they cucked out in cowardice.
Otherwise you'd never be able to get into a used safe.
Sure you would. You wouldn't be able to reuse a used safe, but a safe isn't expected to be safe against an attacker unrestricted by time, noise or lack of power tools.
Alternatively, you could buy a used safe alongside the key it came with, and/or the combination it came with given to you, and accept the risk that the prior owner will know a code. Ultimately, some random schmoe who happens to be selling his old safe is less likely to attempt access to the safe than basically anyone else in the first place, anyways.
We'll they're fucked. The twitter ratio and replies are pretty epic.
All the people that they told to pay $,$$$ to a locksmith to break into the safe because they couldn't help them are lining up for a class action lawsuit.
Time to ascribe to the John Wick gun and valuables storage method.
Forgive me if I'm just being an ignorant Britbong, but that kind of idiot invests in a safe that someone else can open remotely and without your permission? Next you'll tell me his front door is controlled by Alexa.
That's my fault, actually- they didn't remotely unlock it but they provided the feds their manufacturer's access code to unlock it.
I guess these days you have to be a mechanical lock safe and either change the combination yourself or find a MAGA locksmith, pay in cash and destroy any receipts so the feds can't find him.
I'm not a safe expert but I assume a trained locksmith can open any safe with the proper time & tools and they don't really need a "drilling template" (whatever that is)? I'd also imagine the feds know the more popular safe manufacturers' design?
Nothing is totally secure, but at least make the bastards work for it.
There’s a chasm of difference between the government breaking into your safe and the manufacturer of the safe enthusiastically giving the government total access.
You're looking at this all wrong. This is great customer service! They knew the feds would break in to the safe anyway, probably making it unusable, so they just let them in so that their customer's "safe" wouldn't be destroyed!
"My safe survived a fed raid in perfectly usable condition! 5 stars!!!"
Honestly that would have been the perfect comeback for the company on twitter. They'd have still been raked over the coals, but it's better than turning off comments and going dark.
Rule #3 is that the mechanical backups are worse. It doesn't matter how secure the primary is if the secondary can be opened by jiggling a wave rake for a few seconds.
They also probably have a master key for physical locks of any safes they manufacture. This company probably would've handed that over just as freely. The only difference is the time delay involved.
I don't think it's a master key, but they record the combo for every serial number they ship. I don't know if there are safes where you can change the combo yourself. Anything with a keypad probably has a master code.
I think a keyed lock having a master key would be a big deal too if they didn't tell anyone, since usually they disclose that (eg. the "TSA locks" or some commercial locks explicitly marketed as having one). Otherwise you generally assume the key you have is the only key that unlocks the lock.
Of course if the locks have some sort of standardized keying they could record the key id with the safe serial number and make a new key for a particular safe using that information. I don't know whether or not they do that, but if you had a locksmith change the lock then they wouldn't be able to.
Oh I agree. I just somehow anticipate that this company already did disclose that, at least somewhere in the fine print. Couldn't spot anything on a cursory glance at their Terms of Use policy though.
This is why my none of my home appliances will ever be online if I can help it. I think sooner or later I'm going to be required by my public utilities to use their always-online thermostat so they can turn my house into a sauna in the summer because they refuse to build anything other than renewable plants.
I hate to interrupt a good circle jerk because I know the right loves circle jerks as much as the left, but once Liberty receives a valid search warrant, they have no choice but to comply with it or they will be fined or put in jail. At most, they can challenge the validity of the warrant. I hope that they did because even fucking Reddit of all places challenges them. But once that part is over, they have to comply.
The actual scandalous part is that there's apparently a master override code that'll open any Liberty safe. I just checked Liberty's website and the only thing that they ask for when you register is your safe's serial number. Presumably from that, they looked up the model and the corresponding manufacturer's override code. By the way, the FBI can now open any of that model of safe with the same code.
And a side note, what kind of dumbass opsec failure did the guy do that let the FBI know ahead of time what kind of safe he had?
By the way, the FBI can now open any of that model of safe with the same code.
That's the biggest problem here. A warrant may apply in this specific case, but the FBI was given the capability to open any Liberty safe in any future case without a warrant. Liberty gave away those owners' privacy without a fight.
This completely ruins any value these safes might have had, because simply knowing those codes exist gives incentive for somebody to figure them out. All it's going to take is for one guy to reverse engineer or otherwise hack into one of these safes and leak those codes for everyone.
hack into one of these safes and leak those codes for everyone
And I hope they do. Sorry to anyone out there who owns one of these. Blame the company for putting a rootkit on your safe, not the "security researcher" who exposed it.
Last time I saw a number thrown around it was only 2%. Only 2% of search warrant requests were denied. It's pretty well known that most judges just rubber stamp whatever for the police. The whole point of judicial review is to prevent this from happening.
no choice but to comply
You can't turn over what you don't have. Liberty got themselves into the business of keeping a database of master combinations. Imagine you, the customer, finding out today that these guys were holding these codes. Was there disclosure? How about the customers that were told "no" for help and were forced to hire a locksmith for lost combinations when the company could have coughed them up at any time for free?
what kind of dumbass opsec failure did the guy do that let the FBI know ahead of time what kind of safe he had?
It's called a sneak and peek. Feds break in to your house when no one's there and start documenting what they see. They can even trash the place and make it look like you were robbed if they have to, or just to take whatever. They need a "valid warrant" to do this but, heh, see the first point.
they have no choice but to comply with it or they will be fined or put in jail
Hey you know what we get told in our undergrad for Therapy and Counseling?
You keep your pride and your client's safety and privacy in mind, and go to fucking jail rather than cuck out like a bitch. Because they tell you straight up that crossing that line will lose you your license, your career, and any respect you held. The law has to show a very narrow criteria to let you do that, and "helping in an investigation" after the crime is never one of them.
That's the Leftist run Psychology shithole showing more principles than you or this company.
once Liberty receives a valid search warrant, they have no choice but to comply with it or they will be fined or put in jail
If Liberty were served with a search warrant or court order, they'd have no choice but to comply with it or go to jail. That's not what happened. A search warrant for a different property has nothing to do with the safe manufacturer. Until they get an order directed at them, any compliance is voluntary.
They just changed their policy on this, admitting that they were wrong, basically. However, there is some question as to what degree people ought to have known this was the policy the whole time.
And that's another business about to lose all their customers, if you can't even feign a customer first attitude and you bend over with zero resistance to anyone with a badge then why the fuck would people trust you with their assests?
Why would a safe company have the code to your safe? How is that even legal?? Do people even know that?
I was looking at their website and scanned a bunch of different safes, there's no mention of this.
I guess the lesson is simple- only buy non-electronic safes.
When I bought a safe, electronic just seemed ridiculous. Just extra batteries to deal with. It's not that hard to put in a simple combination on a mechanical lock, I can have it open in 15 seconds without trying to go fast. Electronic safe is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Mine is just a fire safe too, it wouldn't be that tough to keep out someone with tools. A big expensive high security safe? I don't want no electronic shit.
If someone can get to you, with your guard complete down, inside of 15 seconds, you're fucked anyways.
My guns aren't even in a safe. I don't see the value if you aren't trying to lock them up from people welcome in your home. They are right next to the safe though. The way I see if they've made it that far either I'm not home or I've already been shot and killed. I keep a safe to protect documents, backups, and cash from fire mainly.
I'd maybe consider going for a dual lock combo with a mechanical and electronic one. Both kinds of locks likely have their advantages and disadvantages, security-wise, so having a layer of each would likely cancel out most disadvantages.
Although in both cases I suspect the manufacturers have a master key, and I don't feel confident enough to try a DIY job on something as sophisticated as a safe locking mechanism.
The issue with safes and locks in general is the failure state.
Electronic locks can fail open or fail closed. Mechanical locks can only fail closed.
Double the locks on your safe is double the vulnerabilities to attack.
Master key systems are expensive to implement and add a huge vulnerability to locks. Lose a master key and a whole product line is potentially compromised.
If I am going to buy a safe, I want it to come with the promise that I am the only one who can open it. If I lose my key, it is going to require a specialist or a grinder.
I figure if I'm being hunted by the government I'm already screwed anyway. They don't need contents of a safe to lock me up for no reason.
I'd be tempted to go out of my way to get a top of the line safe that's a pain to bust into, and leave it completely empty, just so I can see the frustrated reaction from the Feds. Maybe leave something in there like a clown nose, just to troll them further.
I have an old one of those cheap file safes in a closet. I figured if I am ever burglarized it's a diversion, maybe they think they got my safe and quit looking around that hard. Only thing in it is a picture of Nancy Pelosi that I got in the mail as some sort of campaign prop back during Covid "14 days means eternity" time.
That's pretty damn hilarious, I've gotta say. I congratulate you on your deviously clever taste.
I don't think that they had the guy's combo. Instead they must have a backdoor code to get in.
They have master codes based on the serial number of your safe. Otherwise you'd never be able to get into a used safe.
If the cost of being able to buy and sell safes on the 2nd hand market is defeating the entire purpose of a safe in the first place, probably best we just not have a 2nd hand market.
They also want to be able to let you open your safe if you somehow forget the combination without destroying a $5k safe.
The issue isn't that they have it, or that they were forced to follow a warrant.
The issue is that that warrant was issued in the first place.
A warrant isn't carte blanche for the feds to do whatever the fuck they want in your house. If they actually thought the safe had some dark secrets (they don't), they would have to subpoena Liberty Safe for the access codes.
I'ma be honest homie.
If the options are "defeat the point of having a safe in the first place" or "forgetful idiot gets fucked by his incompetence," I'm gonna just say that guy loses his safe and learns a lesson. Every time we try to have a quality of life barrier net for everybody, it just gets exploited by the worst people.
Also, the company had the option of just going to jail (or paying the fine). They weren't powerless here, they cucked out in cowardice.
Why are we hyper focused on this company when the government are the ones fucking around?
Sure you would. You wouldn't be able to reuse a used safe, but a safe isn't expected to be safe against an attacker unrestricted by time, noise or lack of power tools.
Alternatively, you could buy a used safe alongside the key it came with, and/or the combination it came with given to you, and accept the risk that the prior owner will know a code. Ultimately, some random schmoe who happens to be selling his old safe is less likely to attempt access to the safe than basically anyone else in the first place, anyways.
You can recode a mechanical or electronic safe.
I'd rather not have that "convenience" as a hypothetical used safe buyer than have a backdoor code known to third parties.
We'll they're fucked. The twitter ratio and replies are pretty epic.
All the people that they told to pay $,$$$ to a locksmith to break into the safe because they couldn't help them are lining up for a class action lawsuit.
Time to ascribe to the John Wick gun and valuables storage method.
Forgive me if I'm just being an ignorant Britbong, but that kind of idiot invests in a safe that someone else can open remotely and without your permission? Next you'll tell me his front door is controlled by Alexa.
That's my fault, actually- they didn't remotely unlock it but they provided the feds their manufacturer's access code to unlock it.
I guess these days you have to be a mechanical lock safe and either change the combination yourself or find a MAGA locksmith, pay in cash and destroy any receipts so the feds can't find him.
Even then the maker will supply the feds with the drilling template so they can open it, it'll just take longer.
I'm not a safe expert but I assume a trained locksmith can open any safe with the proper time & tools and they don't really need a "drilling template" (whatever that is)? I'd also imagine the feds know the more popular safe manufacturers' design?
Nothing is totally secure, but at least make the bastards work for it.
There’s a chasm of difference between the government breaking into your safe and the manufacturer of the safe enthusiastically giving the government total access.
You're looking at this all wrong. This is great customer service! They knew the feds would break in to the safe anyway, probably making it unusable, so they just let them in so that their customer's "safe" wouldn't be destroyed!
"My safe survived a fed raid in perfectly usable condition! 5 stars!!!"
Honestly that would have been the perfect comeback for the company on twitter. They'd have still been raked over the coals, but it's better than turning off comments and going dark.
At least it would show them having a sense of humor, instead of just being cowards.
They still deserve to lose everything, but its a small step up.
Unless the safe is something very special, just about any safe can be opened with a big grinder with a cutting disc. It just takes time.
The only safe that is un-break-into-able is one that is un-accessable even to the owner.
You can cut anything with a torch and enough time.
A trained guy can cut that time down.
Yes, that was a mistake on my part.
On what grounds could the FBI even obtain a search warrant of the entire home for an alleged crime that happened elsewhere?
Tyranny.
So much for "liberty," and so much for "safe" too.
You should get a mechanical safe, then you can have your safe destroyed when the feds break into it like a true red blooded american.
This is rule #1 on why you don’t want digital key locks on ANYTHING.
Rule #2 is that 99% of digital locks are extremely shit.
Rule #3 is that the mechanical backups are worse. It doesn't matter how secure the primary is if the secondary can be opened by jiggling a wave rake for a few seconds.
Buying a safe someone else keeps the combination to is insane.
They opened a safe with a warrant?
I got news for you - the fbi has been opening safes without a warrant for ages
The bigger issue is that the manufacturer has a backdoor way of opening any electronic safe they manufacture.
They also probably have a master key for physical locks of any safes they manufacture. This company probably would've handed that over just as freely. The only difference is the time delay involved.
I don't think it's a master key, but they record the combo for every serial number they ship. I don't know if there are safes where you can change the combo yourself. Anything with a keypad probably has a master code.
I think a keyed lock having a master key would be a big deal too if they didn't tell anyone, since usually they disclose that (eg. the "TSA locks" or some commercial locks explicitly marketed as having one). Otherwise you generally assume the key you have is the only key that unlocks the lock.
Of course if the locks have some sort of standardized keying they could record the key id with the safe serial number and make a new key for a particular safe using that information. I don't know whether or not they do that, but if you had a locksmith change the lock then they wouldn't be able to.
Oh I agree. I just somehow anticipate that this company already did disclose that, at least somewhere in the fine print. Couldn't spot anything on a cursory glance at their Terms of Use policy though.
This is why my none of my home appliances will ever be online if I can help it. I think sooner or later I'm going to be required by my public utilities to use their always-online thermostat so they can turn my house into a sauna in the summer because they refuse to build anything other than renewable plants.
and this is why I have a key safe. I didn't even know these things were Internet connected.
They're not; they just have a master code that the feds know (now, if they didn't before).
There's an easy fix, though. Just disconnect power and use the key.
I hate to interrupt a good circle jerk because I know the right loves circle jerks as much as the left, but once Liberty receives a valid search warrant, they have no choice but to comply with it or they will be fined or put in jail. At most, they can challenge the validity of the warrant. I hope that they did because even fucking Reddit of all places challenges them. But once that part is over, they have to comply.
The actual scandalous part is that there's apparently a master override code that'll open any Liberty safe. I just checked Liberty's website and the only thing that they ask for when you register is your safe's serial number. Presumably from that, they looked up the model and the corresponding manufacturer's override code. By the way, the FBI can now open any of that model of safe with the same code.
And a side note, what kind of dumbass opsec failure did the guy do that let the FBI know ahead of time what kind of safe he had?
That's the biggest problem here. A warrant may apply in this specific case, but the FBI was given the capability to open any Liberty safe in any future case without a warrant. Liberty gave away those owners' privacy without a fight.
This completely ruins any value these safes might have had, because simply knowing those codes exist gives incentive for somebody to figure them out. All it's going to take is for one guy to reverse engineer or otherwise hack into one of these safes and leak those codes for everyone.
And I hope they do. Sorry to anyone out there who owns one of these. Blame the company for putting a rootkit on your safe, not the "security researcher" who exposed it.
Last time I saw a number thrown around it was only 2%. Only 2% of search warrant requests were denied. It's pretty well known that most judges just rubber stamp whatever for the police. The whole point of judicial review is to prevent this from happening.
You can't turn over what you don't have. Liberty got themselves into the business of keeping a database of master combinations. Imagine you, the customer, finding out today that these guys were holding these codes. Was there disclosure? How about the customers that were told "no" for help and were forced to hire a locksmith for lost combinations when the company could have coughed them up at any time for free?
It's called a sneak and peek. Feds break in to your house when no one's there and start documenting what they see. They can even trash the place and make it look like you were robbed if they have to, or just to take whatever. They need a "valid warrant" to do this but, heh, see the first point.
Hey you know what we get told in our undergrad for Therapy and Counseling?
You keep your pride and your client's safety and privacy in mind, and go to fucking jail rather than cuck out like a bitch. Because they tell you straight up that crossing that line will lose you your license, your career, and any respect you held. The law has to show a very narrow criteria to let you do that, and "helping in an investigation" after the crime is never one of them.
That's the Leftist run Psychology shithole showing more principles than you or this company.
If Liberty were served with a search warrant or court order, they'd have no choice but to comply with it or go to jail. That's not what happened. A search warrant for a different property has nothing to do with the safe manufacturer. Until they get an order directed at them, any compliance is voluntary.
They just changed their policy on this, admitting that they were wrong, basically. However, there is some question as to what degree people ought to have known this was the policy the whole time.
Post headline is false. Liberty Safe gave them a master code for entry, they didn't unlock the safe remotely.