One of the reasons, I stopped eating out. These waiters and waitresses have become too entitled. And it's not just waiters and waitresses, these days. It's all kinds of workers. If they are not being paid enough, then they need to talk to their employer about that. Not customers who are already paying insane prices. If they aren't making enough money, then you only tipping $10 is not the problem. Their employer is the problem(or all the people responsible for increasing the cost of living in the country). But they think they are entitled to customers just throwing money at them. Why is it your responsibility to make sure they are being paid enough money when you are just a customer who is already going to pay the prices that were shown to you on the menu? EDIT: Restaurant employees are almost behaving like gangsters nowadays. I've heard stories of customers not tipping enough being followed outside of the restaurant.
"At least I'm not the one begging strangers for money. Wahh my bribe to do a job I'm already paid to do isn't high enough, wahhh. Poor baby."
Exactly. It's just aggressively begging customers for money at this point. And not everyone who eats out is rich.
The service culture fell apart in America. In my view the waiters and waitresses just suck now. They don't do the job, they don't go above the basic demands of the job, and they don't seem to care if you want to come back or not. This was not the norm 40 years ago and it wouldn't have been tolerated. Even fucking Pizza Hut would give you half decent table service in the 80s.
I only eat at certain family run restaurants now. The small business culture is next. Support them while you can.
The service culture fell apart in America because we were never meant to be a service based economy, most of those jobs were traditionally meant for young adults who hadn’t yet found a decent career that would earn them enough to buy a house, a decent car, afford annual vacations, enough to raise a family, afford health insurance and still be able to save for a retirement. Now we are looking at 50+% of the workforce who is barely scraping by with some garbage service industry job, even higher percentage than that if we remove boomer aged workers from the equation…..most people under 45 are frustrated, and while they should just demand a higher wage from their employer, they know there’s a chance they’ll lose what little income they have if they do that, leading to an even worse position than they were in….and thanks to mass immigration, and widespread anti-White hiring practices (for White males especially), that job search could take precious time they don’t have before homelessness becomes a real possibility, so they look to the customer to help make a difference…..I get it, it’s wrong to expect the customers to make a difference in their lives, especially when the majority of people under under 45 are struggling to make ends meet just like their server…..as for boomers, the generation who decimated our economy in the name of maximizing profits, who are still living more than comfortably in a majority of cases, they have no right to whine about this issue since they’re responsible for creating it in the first place.
who are still living more than comfortably in a majority of cases, they have no right to whine about this issue, younger folks do.
They've been trained to think the younger generation is entitled and simply isn't willing to work as hard as they did. They can see White genocide but they're also doing the calculus and realizing their 401k will probably sail them into the grave before they have to personally confront it.
I love my mother. This is one point we absolutely do not agree on. Fox news has given her all the justification she needs. Her feet are nailed to the floor. She literally said "...as long as I'm comfortable I kind of don't care." :(
I'm still not sure how to process that or incorporate it moving forward. Anyways.. completely agree with everything you said.
Does she have grandchildren? Not to dog on your mother but what a selfish shitty view. I know boomers can be like that, but usually they at least keep it to themselves and dont explicitly voice it.
What are you even talking about? Have you looked at the home ownership graph by age group? Nearly 80% of Boomers own at least one house, and roughly 40% of the houses in the U.S. are in their control, the rest are owned by investment bankers like BlackRock or they’re owned by import migrant groups because they get all sorts of help from the system to ensure they own a house and have a decent job. As for the majority of the White demographic outside of the boomer demographic, homeownership os completely out of the equation while rent skyrockets throughout the country, so they get to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in their life and have nothing to show for it, miss those rent payments because this j’wd exonomy has rigged the system against Whites and it’s time to find out what being homeless is all about. That’s poverty
Dude, Boomers have been in charge since the 70’s, they’re directly and indirectly responsible for the demographic shift and a myriad of the other major problems plaguing our society, and it wasn’t just democrat boomers who are to blame. Look at how much support Reagan had from the boomers, they practically worship the dude and he turned California blue forever because those stupid hippy fucks have never confronted racial issues in a rational way, not only just lying to themselves so they don’t have to deal with uncomfortable racial problems, they actively enact policy that goes against White interests to “help” make life better for non-Whites. To this day I have to remind my own father repeatedly that browns do see race, and they hate our race, otherwise he will watch a movie like “Green Book” and immediately go right back to his hippy jewish conditioning where he believes racists are evil, that being in favor of the White community’s needs is evil, and the only way to break him out of that hippy bullshit is to show him videos of negroes attacking an innocent White people.
Meh I think its were your living at. Living in a mainstream metro somewhere, yeah this prolly the norm.
Canada, lmao is fucking retarded. People here dont refill your drinks or even talk to you other than getting your order and dropping off the bill, then they act like they did something to earn a tip, they dont earn it, they just expect it.
Maybe its changed in the last 15 years, but when I was still living in ohio, eating out was a pleasant experience. Me and my partner had a mexican place we liked to go to (ran by actual mexicans gasp). Or even somewhere generic like bob evans. And everyone would small talk and theyd refill your glass everytime it emptied. They didnt expect tips, but they certainly earned them. Man, I just really miss ohio.
You could easily start up a conversation with some rando standing on the corner waiting at the bus stop or whatever. Even in columbus. Cant do that in a place like halifax, everyone is just so cold. Their either staring into their phones or looking at the ground. No one wants to even look at each other, let alone talk to each other. I think I was randomly called faggot just walking down the street here more in 3 years than the 30 years I lived in ohio lmao.
My god its fucking bad in canada, people expect tips for just picking up a order at a drive through, and the food is always so fucking expensive and shitty as fuck, never worth the money.
How'd you end up in canuckistan? As someone still in Ohio, I can say that it definitely doesnt seem to be as bad as most other places. But perhaps not as good as it was when you were here?
The people are mostly good, but service quality definitely varies from place to place. Just gotta tip wisely I guess; positive reinforcement where it is applicable and negative where it is applicable.
But the trends over the last few years leave me very conflicted. As someone who makes solid money and up until now was fairly single, I always had a lot of extra on my hands so I kind of liked tipping because I could reward going above and beyond. But with the entitlement and the increased begging for tips where they arent applicable and with how thoroughly they have become expected given employers account for them in the pay structure, part of me wishes the genie could go back in the bottle.
The only place I happily tip generously anymore is my local sushi joint. Because the quality is good for the price and I am happy and grateful that the owner is operating such a place in my hometown and want it to be successful.
I've always been of two minds. When it's to effectively pay workers cash under the table that isn't taxed? Great. We should do that more with everything. Tip your waiter, tip your barber, tip your plumber.
When it's obligatory? Fuck off. I'll tip when I feel like it, when I get great service.
Especially if you go to see them regularly and they know you. It's nice to slide a few bucks to somebody you'll only see once every few months. But for the imported foreign labor of today? No way.
When it's to effectively pay workers cash under the table that isn't taxed?
They just changed it so that tips are not taxed. Same for overtime. Now, I don't have an opinion on taxing tips, but not taxing overtime seems insane to me. Surely, you don't want to encourage overtime even more than it already is in the US?
I don't think the company cares if your overtime is taxed or not. They pay the same amount either way. Now, though, the worker putting that time in is basically getting a raise. What's the problem with that?
Well, it's a worker protection law in the US. If you work more than 40 hours in a week, you must get paid 150% of your normal rate for each extra hour. In many cases, the company is loathe to pay OT, and thus keeps workers to 40 hours or less. Some companies decide that the OT is worth it, and many guys (especially blue collar types) love to collect a bunch of premium pay every week. This system gives the company incentive to shy away from saying, "oh, we need a shift covered? Meh, just make Joe pick up a sixth day every week. Yay, problem solved!"
If you're trying to say income shouldn't be taxed at all, I agree with you. This is a good step, though.
Well, it's a worker protection law in the US. If you work more than 40 hours in a week, you must get paid 150% of your normal rate for each extra hour
Really? I thought overtime need not be paid out at all. If this is true, your laws are actually better than the European laws I know, where it depends on your contract and sometimes need not be paid out at all (although basically no one actually does it).
This system gives the company incentive to shy away from saying, "oh, we need a shift covered? Meh, just make Joe pick up a sixth day every week. Yay, problem solved!"
I don't quite get this. Doesn't this incentivize getting people to work more? Or do you mean forcing a random bastard to do it, who doesn't want to do it, beause they find willing people?
If you're trying to say income shouldn't be taxed at all, I agree with you.
It's not realistic. That is what annoys me about the "taxation is theft" lolbertarians. If they spend it on collective goods for ME, then it is not theft. If they send it to Ukraine or bring in fake refugees to kill me, then it is.
In America there are two common wages: salary and paid per hour. 150% for overtime is typically referring to hourly paid employees. Salaried employees get fucked over and do not receive overtime pay, just a fixed annual wage, regardless of if the work in excess of 40 hours in a given week.
Yeah, though as PooperSnooper said, this doesn't apply to salaried workers. However, that's basically always for things like management, so the position won't stay filled for long if the company tries to lowball. Basically every "regular worker" including things like welders, etc. get paid hourly.
If this is true, your laws are actually better than the European laws I know
Really? Europe doesn't make companies pay more for over 40 hours?
Doesn't this incentivize getting people to work more?
I... guess? If you want the OT, that is. I'm not sure why that's bad, though. Certainly the company wouldn't pay 150% if they didn't have to, so a lot of them are anal about not paying any OT at all and getting their workers out right at 40 hours.
Or do you mean forcing a random bastard to do it, who doesn't want to do it
Yes, that's what I mean. If the premium wasn't there, they could easily force that poor bastard to do it without recourse or concern (because they would pay the same either way).
Yeah, though as PooperSnooper said, this doesn't apply to salaried workers. However, that's basically always for things like management, so the position won't stay filled for long if the company tries to lowball. Basically every "regular worker" including things like welders, etc. get paid hourly.
So how is it decided how many hours you work?
Really? Europe doesn't make companies pay more for over 40 hours?
It differs by country. Some countries ban overtime outright, like France (because it destroys jobs for others, and supposedly because it's bad for workers' health) In other countries, unpaid overtime is allowed as long as it is not the norm. So you can't hire someone for 40 hours and then work him for 45 hours each week, but if it occasionally happens, it's an occupational hazard. Normally, this is reserved for higher-paid jobs, at least by our standards. In practice, it's almost never done except for management positions.
I... guess? If you want the OT, that is. I'm not sure why that's bad, though.
Just my opinion and the opinion of everyone here that Americans work way too much, and that they live to work rather than work to live as we do.
Yes, that's what I mean. If the premium wasn't there, they could easily force that poor bastard to do it without recourse or concern (because they would pay the same either way).
Ah, well that changes things, though I'd much rather have it that companies can't require overtime.
Most of the workers who do overtime love the extra money because they get paid time and a half. Not getting taxed on that makes it even better for them. While I wouldnt want to work that much, most people who actually do, or need to, love that change.
Surely, you don't want to encourage overtime even more than it already is in the US?
Some of us work overtime willingly to be able to provide more for our families or our hobbies and would kill to be allowed to willingly work more of it without taxes. In fact, it would make me work less of it to get the money I was seeking.
I'm assuming this was probably at the shitty corporate steakhouse chain The Keg. Especially with the giftcard and the special upcharge for their special garlic potatoes over rice.
The most surprising thing about your anecdote & awful experience is that the manager had the audacity to come shake you down for the gratuity.
Surely with all of the diversity being introduced to Quebec & elsewhere, the waitresses at the corporate chains should be used to it by now to get stiffed for tips from the chinks, blacks & jeets.
the manager had the audacity to come shake you down for the gratuity.
I don't know if its the same in Canada, but at least here the company is forced to cover the wages if they don't make enough in tips to reach a certain level. So its probably a common thing to make sure he doesn't have to give up his money.
Quebec minimum wage is $16.10. Canada doesn't have any of those ridiculous crazy low hourly server wages expecting customers to subsidize them up to the legal threshold.
The manager unsolicitedly coming over to argue about a tip dispute that their entitled staff started, with anything other than an apology & perhaps a comp, is egregious.
Yeah in that case its absolutely over the line and the kind of thing that should tank a business entirely to have someone in thier management having the gall to try and shake you down for money.
Its one thing for an entry level employee to make that mistake, but the actual people running it is a sign that its enshrined and a genuine problem.
Wait staff is going to have to learn magic tricks, great jokes or start doing lap dances if they want that kind of money. And I'm going to start only tipping in cash and make them take off any pre-calculated tips on the bill.
They're going to have to live with the excitement of lifting my plate after I leave to see how much their tip is.
Thanks to minimum wage laws, a lot of people stopped tipping. Yeah, you were making $3 an hour, and the rest from tips. Now you're making $15 an hour, and still want tips, while everything is 3x more expensive. Have fun.
Restaurants have a weird legal workaround for minimum wage laws thanks to tipping. Effectively here's how it works: the wait staff gets paid the standard minimum wage only if they fail to acquire enough tips to reach that minimum wage.
The rub is that there is usually very little middle ground; restaurants are usually either empty or busy. This means that the minimum wage barrier is usually broken by a significant margin.
Generally, the only people not reaching leagues above minimum wage due to tips are people so bad they don't deserve their job, or are in a restaurant/area so bad that nobody tips period.
Its why every attempt to remove the tipping culture and laws is met with incredible hate from the wait staff themselves, because they usually make fucking bank off it.
What a mess. I'm glad for our tipping culture in Europe, where in most places tipping is not done at all or rounding off or 5% is considered a generous tip. That said, you should also get used then to European levels of service, which are mostly OK to good, but not great.
In Japan, the service is absolutely excellent, and they will steadfastly refuse any tip. I'm not a weeaboo or whatever that is, but why can't the rest of the world be more like Japan?
I agree, regarding unpaid overtime (or overtime at all), not being able to take time off, but providing great service and politeness seems to be ingrained there.
Like Tucker said, visiting Japan is a radicalizing experience. It's possible to have very large cities where people are polite, decent, safe, and don't throw trash everywhere.
I don't know what "European" levels of service entails, but if it's more than showing up once, maybe twice to refill a beverage it's already leagues better than 'murica. What I used to consider subpar service 20 years ago is now apparently exemplary.
We don't have free refills here to begin with, you have to call on the waiter for him to pay you a visit. But waiters aren't smiling, making small-talk (which is the impression I get from TV), etc. - which is great for me because I'm used to the way we do it and I'd find it very annoying.
Also, in some touristic places (wink wink Paris) waiters are quite notoriously rude, which is why tourists will often say that "Parisians are rude" or even "the French are rude".
So you don't have someone looking around and refilling water glasses? Huh. At least it's consistent then. Here, sometimes you'll get refills without asking, and sometimes you won't be bothered for anything unless you flag them down. The latter group still wants their 30% tip though.
While I do like having someone ask "Do you want another <drink>?" or "Do you want more water?", I'd quite happily go without if it also meant not having to tip at all. I couldn't care less about smiling or small-talk.
In fact, there's no such thing as free water. You pay for that. I was quite surprised when I was outside of Europe and you just get a glass of water without being asked.
I literally stopped eating out completely except for 1 restaurant which I support bitterly for having low prices. I mean, it's also a nice restaurant and I like the owner. I'm not bitter about supporting her, LOL. I am just spitefully not going anywhere else ever even when I want to. I work in finance so I see the real inventory costs. Prices go up for them 10% and they jack up the prices 250%. May they rot and die in hell.
Anyway, the tipping thing is very American, but I completely understand and agree. I would have been livid. Hell, I am livid without that additional bullshit. Fuck these people.
They don't produce anything, and they destroy the one thing they're supposed to create, a pleasant service and atmosphere.
Instituting tipping for literally everything was a brilliantly evil way to get employees angry with customers for their low pay instead of angry at their employer.
And with today's service quality, that scornful attitude definitely has taken hold.
Quebec nowadays legit sounds like a nightmare My mother visted my Aunt her sister and it was sort of anti-english experience tho that isn't unique to just her lol
I once had a layover in montreal, everything is in french, little bit of english here and there. Ask some security if im going the right way. Get snubbed because im speaking english.
If a job “requires” tips - typically food service - then tips are already built into the cost of the service. You think you can stop tipping your waiter? Cool. If enough people do so, then no one will work as a waiter until the restaurants shore up the lost wages directly. That cost will then be passed on to you, and you’ll probably complain about the increased prices. You might even stop eating out in protest, but you’re really just mad that other customers are no longer subsidizing your patronage. Because let’s face it, you were already a bad tipper—I mean “very principled non-tipper”. You know who else are very principled non-tippers? The most anti-social demographic in existence: blacks. Congratulations on your good company.
The problem isn’t tipping culture. The problem is inflation. The problem is fiat currency. The problem is stagnating wages. Having a portion of the economy reliably exist under the table, away from government bullshit, is actually a good thing.
The problem is tipping is a high trust manoeuvre and not punishing bad behavior from shitty third worlders or defective adult children have made it a low trust society. It's crazy that you think he's being subsidized by others at a 10-15% tip when half the country barely have the decency to flush a public toilet anymore. 10-15% is still probably way above average. Especially if you count dine and dashes as negative tips, since we're using them to balance the cost of services.
If it's baked into the costing then put it in the actual contract (aka the sticker price), don't just leave it to the more generous of society to pick up the slack of the ballooning feral population all by themselves.
Altruism only survives if it preferences itself first, but being firm handed is hard and feminized schooling made people weak. Either people with good moral intentions re-learn that fact, or they end up abused and extinct. Now is not the time to give more funds to people who most likely would not repay your good intentions. Do you really think most (young, female skewed) wait staff would rather donate to a trucker to pay legal costs to the government tyranny he was subject to, or some sob story of some random African with a sob story about moving to Canada with his 8 kids and their probably made up leukemia? Give those resources only to people you know deserve it and keep doing exclusively that forevermore. Blind charity in a world full of rats and rubes is just naive and dangerous.
The problem isn’t tipping culture. The problem is inflation. The problem is fiat currency. The problem is stagnating wages. Having a portion of the economy reliably exist under the table, away from government bullshit, is actually a good thing
Auto added, digitally paid tips at a chain restaurant do not even come close to existing under the table. That's the vast majority of tips these days, it's time to adapt to the current situation, not one from 30 years ago. The real problem here is the same one that caused stagnating wages in the first place: People not having the backbone to go against a system that exploits them and just making cope justifications for doing what they're told. There's no way all the tips you've paid in your life wouldn't have been better spent directly on causes and people who matter to you, tipping is just easier and less embarrassing.
It's crazy that you think he's being subsidized by others at a 10-15% tip when half the country barely have the decency to flush a public toilet anymore.
It is painfully obvious that none of you have worked in food service before.
Servers have a very well defined average tip per table/ticket. That average functions as both an expected wage for the server and an expected cost for the customer. If that average falls too low, then no one wants the job.
Anyone who tips below the average is having their service subsidized by other customers. This is simple logic. It does not require a conscious decision, on the part of the above average tipper, to subsidize the non-tippers. You’re projecting a motivation onto a dynamic that requires none.
10-15% is still probably way above average. Especially if you count dine and dashes as negative tips, since we're using them to balance the cost of services.
Outside of the very worst blue cities with overwhelmingly black customer bases, dine and dashes are exceedingly rare. So much so that they still go viral on social media. They are not a major factor in this calculus unless they are, at which point the restaurant will quickly become insolvent.
If it's baked into the costing then put it in the actual contract (aka the sticker price), don't just leave it to the more generous of society to pick up the slack of the ballooning feral population all by themselves.
If your argument is that blacks ruin stuff, then “food service economies” is way down that list. Tipping culture works fine for most of the population in most areas. In places where blacks proliferate, you see automatic gratuities, and that’s literally the contact you’re asking for.
Auto added, digitally paid tips at a chain restaurant do not even come close to existing under the table. That's the vast majority of tips these days, it's time to adapt to the current situation, not one from 30 years ago.
I live in a major American city. Top 20 market. The vast majority of restaurants here do not require automatic gratuities. That shit is mostly restricted to very high end dining, which is maybe 5% of all transactions? It is becoming more common in the biggest cities in America, precisely because of the increasing “feral population”, but again… automatic gratuity is functionally identical to a higher wage + higher cost. So where’s the issue here? You object to tipping in places where it doesn’t cause problems and you object to “fake tipping” everywhere else? Are you sure you aren’t just a eurofag stuck on outdated programming?
If your prices go up so dramatically that no one wants to eat at your restaurant anymore simply because you're paying your staff a proper wage then you're doing something wrong.
Tipping should be optional for excellent service. If tipping is required for your staff to have a living wage adjust your prices.
The average tip is baked into the cost. Why is this so hard for you people to grasp? It’s like you’re angry that a percentage of your bill is arbitrarily labeled as a different thing. Are you all seriously this low IQ?
Upvoted because you made a strong argument, but where did you read "very principled non-tipper"?
Given the fact that with tips, bad customers are subsidized by good customers, doesn't that make tips a bad thing? Not to mention that they (probably not true, but I've heard it from Muricans) might spit in your food next time if you don't tip to their satisfaction?
I'm very anti-social. I'm not tipping 50% or 100%. Even 20% is really pushing it. And I'm not tipping for something that involves no extra work, except where it is custom. It seems very strange to me to go to a restaurant, only to find out that you have to pay double the amount stated on the online menu.
I wouldn't go to any place that expects that. I already see tipping as a sign of labor exploitation. Informal income is income that can't serve to grow your financial credibility. It's worse than a proper wage.
You can manually claim all of your tips on your taxes if you choose to do so. I’ve known people who have done it precisely because they wanted to secure better terms for buying a house.
Again, it is glaringly obvious that none of you have actually worked in food service lol
That’s why I put it in quotes. It’s like the “very principled video game pirate” when, in reality, almost everyone who pirates games just doesn’t want to pay for games. Almost every anti-tipper I’ve ever known here in the states was nothing more than a cheapskate who wanted to save money. Most of them were black and/or white trash.
Given the fact that with tips, bad customers are subsidized by good customers, doesn't that make tips a bad thing?
That part is bad. But as I’ve outlined in another comment, tipping relocates a not-insignificant portion of the transaction from “customer and store” to “customer and server”. That negotiated compensation results in a higher-than-minimum wage, one that cannot be completely eroded by the company targeting cheap immigrant labor. In a lot of areas, tipping also occurs effectively under the table via cash, locking the government out entirely. Admittedly, this last benefit is definitely vanishing. Trump tried to salvage it with no taxes on tips.
Not to mention that they (probably not true, but I've heard it from Muricans) might spit in your food next time if you don't tip to their satisfaction?
This phenomenon, much like dine and dashing, is exceedingly rare. Messing with food is a felony offense that is taken extremely seriously in America. Most food service people are simply too apathetic to do it. The ones who do? Once again, mostly blacks. And they are just as liable to do it regardless.
I'm not tipping 50% or 100%.
You’ve fallen for rage-bait social media posts. The vast majority of American restaurant service workers are making about 15% tips. 20% if they’re good (or an attractive female). Tipping is, as you say, also mechanism for rewarding good service. Bad servers are definitely punished with lower earnings.
It’s like the “very principled video game pirate” when, in reality, almost everyone who pirates games just doesn’t want to pay for games.
That's a very broad brush. I pirate almost everything, because most things are not worth paying for. Certainly not the price that they demand.
That negotiated compensation results in a higher-than-minimum wage, one that cannot be completely eroded by the company targeting cheap immigrant labor. In a lot of areas, tipping also occurs effectively under the table via cash, locking the government out entirely. Admittedly, this last benefit is definitely vanishing. Trump tried to salvage it with no taxes on tips.
So the reason is so that servers can't be replaced by immigrants? That's at least some sort of reason. I admit that there is value to having an extra voluntary contribution for service and things that you like, because that avoids a race to the bottom. It's just that I don't really encounter this in restaurants... yet.
You’ve fallen for rage-bait social media posts. The vast majority of American restaurant service workers are making about 15% tips. 20% if they’re good (or an attractive female). Tipping is, as you say, also mechanism for rewarding good service. Bad servers are definitely punished with lower earnings.
Not at all, I didn't say that it's common. Just that it's ridiculous in the cases when it is. I do remember that it used to be 10%. But I was recently in a tipping country, and I saw for a simple drink a "tipping choice" of 15%, 30%, and "other" IIRC. Quite ridiculous. I'm not tipping you to hand me a drink.
then no one will work as a waiter until the restaurants shore up the lost wages directly. That cost will then be passed on to you, and you’ll probably complain about the increased prices
I get the perspective you are coming from, but this is literally the same line that they use to justify illegal immigration and the need for paying those guys slave wages.
Its probably used in the same building to justify Jose and his buddies that work all the backroom cleaning and cooking.
It’s not the same logic at all. Because there is no shortfall in the wages. Because of tipping. That’s my entire point. The customers are paying the true cost, the servers are receiving an acceptable total wage, and the world keeps turning.
If anything, a fixed wage with no tipping would probably enable employers to lowball in pursuit of cheap immigrant labor. Instead, we have a system where employers can’t lowball - most server wages are literally already minimum - and the true wage is a more direct negotiation between service workers and customers. Sure enough, most of the servers in my area are white. The “less tipped” positions, the ones with fixed low wages, are occupied by non-white immigrants.
If we don't pay them well below a real wage, then you the customer will have to offset the difference for us through massive price increases
That's the entire business argument for illegal immigration simplified into one sentence. Including a "everybody wins really" justification of "business gets richer, customer gets 'better' prices, Jose/waiter is happy for the money."
I'm not anti-tipping as a concept, as I personally never had a situation where either it didn't motivate better service or I just walked out paying nothing for garbage service, as it should be. But "well if we don't the business will punish us for taking their pittance wages away" is the exact mindset we are fighting against.
I've decided to sparingly indulge industries that expect tips, except individual businesses that don't fuss over tips. Where I am, that's just fast-food or grocery store deli when I'm lazy. I only get my hair cut every 18 months, so tipping is a negligible fraction of my budget. I used to be a generous tipper until the topic really got popularized, and had to confront that I'm enabling collectively degenerate behavuor. Took a bit to shake off habits indoctrinated by well meaning family.
This is one of the few things I really dread about moving to the US. From a British perspective, I just don't understand it. It seems to me like a completely cynical ploy by the service sector to offset the rightful conflict over wages which should be happening employee vs. employer, to employee vs. customer.
It's the same stupid thing about not having sales tax included in the sticker price. Americans always say to me 'Yeah but if the price on the shelf/menu included tax/tips, then nobody would ever buy!'
What difference does it make?! I'm paying the same amount regardless. In fact, if the tip is included, there's less ambiguity, so we don't have this awkward mind game every time I go to settle up.
I have tipped in the UK, where it is not expected, but only when I receive truly outstanding service. To have it be expected just feels like a shakedown.
There's a lot I love about American culture, and look forward to adopting myself, but tipping is not part of that.
It's the same stupid thing about not having sales tax included in the sticker price. Americans always say to me 'Yeah but if the price on the shelf/menu included tax/tips, then nobody would ever buy!'
Having experienced both, I still like sales tax separate because it's a constant reminder that taxes exist. Otherwise you get the income tax problem where people vote for stupid policies because they've never had to calculate taxes and send a check to the feds.
I suppose that is a secondary benefit of having it out there in the open like that--people can see just how much of their daily purchases are going to the government. Personally, I get pissed enough just looking at my payslips.
Like many things, I was first introduced to Tipping Culture in World of Warcraft. When a Mage made you a portal from Ironforge to Darnassus, you gave him some gold for the trouble. When an Alchemist used his 24-hour Arcanite Transmute cooldown for you, you supplied the materials and gave him a tip as thanks.
However, I quickly ran into a multitude of people that didn't want a "tip" they wanted a service charge. This made me mad. It was demanding that gift, instead of accepting it graciously as it came to you. I ended up just making all my own alts to do things like Arcanite or Spellweave cooldowns to avoid having to put up with what I thought was greedy behavior, especially when it was someone holding my materials hostage. I put up 5-10g (in Vanilla WoW), and they say 20g, 50g, maybe even more, and I have to fear if I would get a sympathetic GM if the guy just ran off with my stuff.
These days, I simply refuse to engage with any service that can possibly expect a tip. I go out to buy food from a pizza place maybe once a month, and patently refuse to go to a sit-down restaurant. Instead of getting the money from my meal, and maybe a tip, you now get absolutely nothing. I can eat beans & rice longer than you can remain solvent.
I find that 90% of my decisions these days are motivated by bad experiences and the resulting spite I have towards whoever caused it. Restaurants skipped, movies skipped, malls skipped, video games skipped. I wish I felt more things were worth my money.
I was first introduced to Tipping Culture in World of Warcraft. When a Mage made you a portal from Ironforge to Darnassus, you gave him some gold for the trouble. When an Alchemist used his 24-hour Arcanite Transmute cooldown for you, you supplied the materials and gave him a tip as thanks.
Some of those made more sense in earlier versions of the game. Whereas now the game has been streamlined/gutted so that every class learns the best version of their spells without needing some special drop to learn the spell.
Mages needed not only reagents to create a portal but in some cases certain spells that people would benefit from like that required rare drops that could be very difficult to have drop or expensive to buy on the AH. Table of Refreshment for example in TBC was like this and needed 2 book drops to learn the original version and upgraded one that everyone wanted for raiding purposes. Mages making food/water for people going out questing was a thing since Vanilla and I remember doing this a lot at lower levels/Vanilla times because you had to create both food and water individually and sometimes manually select lower level versions of the spell so that whomever you were giving the items to could actually use them since they had level requirements. There was also the issue that you wouldn't always be making a full stack of 20 per craft, sometimes you only made 8 so had to do multiple crafts of one, then again multiple crafts of another. It would take a while and mounted up if you were doing this for multiple people.
So in some cases demanding/expecting a mage to give you the best conjured food/water for free in those days would be considered rude by the community at large. Now the conjure refreshment spell even changes depending on party status so you get personal crafts if solo but make the table if grouped.
Portals were the same, mages used to need reagents for those and if they ran out then they had to restock in a few specific locations. While this would be inevitable at least if the mats were covered by others requiring the service it was less of a hassle. Also originally those portals needed trained AT the city destination. If you wanted the Darnassus portal you needed to get to Darnassus yourself first and learn it in the main temple. Now you can simply learn every teleport and portal from the same NPC in Stormwind or any other city.
In part that's why from TBC onwards hub cities with portal networks became THE place people wanted toons/alts sent to set their hearthstone. Even if you skipped the intro to Shattrath you could set your HS in Lower City, or with the Aldor or Scryer and then simply HS back there and use the network to get to your faction cities providing the HS cooldown was ready. Dalaran in Wrath did this again, Vale in MOP, Ashran in WOD, Dalaran again in Legion, Boralus/Troll City in BFA, Oribos in SL, and Valdrakken in DF. It was so popular Blizz even started removing portals when the content was no longer current content, but only in BFA when all the various portals in Legion Dalaran were still that useful, which along with other things in BFA pissed off a lot of players at losing even more QoL from the game that had been going for years now.
(lol at the number of typos I had flag in that last paragraph because of all the city names)
Streamlining/gutting continues with faster HS cooldowns so hubs are more readily accessibly, even faster if in a guild - but guild perks are no longer something to grind because that was streamlined too - so the only things people tend to tip on now are crafts and even then it's more of a commission at times considering the mats that might be needed, rarity of the recipes involved, or simple service provided.
When I was playing on a private DF server I wouldn't ask for tips on work orders if all the mats were provided, it cost me basically nothing other than being on that alt that knew the recipe and clicking a few boxes either in my own time or something more specific like when helping someone make the legendary parts for the axe or Drac'thyr staff since coordinating that sped things up. And in those cases I learned a recipe for free on my alts anyway which my own alts could then benefit from if I ever got the weapons myself, which I didn't but it was still benefiting me slightly. Also meant I could do the crafts again for others. In most cases where I offered those free crafts as long as mats were provided I got a tip of several thousand gold, which wasn't really important on the private server for a list of reasons, but it was still something done entirely by the other player, and I would often get returning customers because of this. The Mail wrists that were BIS for Hunters, Shaman, and Evokers that season 2 added weren't something many bothered learning for whatever reason but having those alts myself I learned the recipe and made them for my alts. I also made them for some players in s2 a few times, upgraded them if they got better mats, and then later again upgraded them in s3 and s4 because the players knew I had the recipe and would do the recrafts for them if they had the mats.
Similarly I knew someone that knew the Elemental Lariat recipe and would do it for free if you provided the mats. This was a recipe that in retail had raiding guilds offering the literal gold cap to anyone that had it dropped in the early weeks of launch because it was that good for most of the expansion. Meanwhile the player I knew didn't charge extra just because he knew it while others would be and charging thousands of gold because everyone wanted it throughout s1 to s3 with it being still good in s4 but less so due to how stats were for some classes at that point.
and I have to fear if I would get a sympathetic GM if the guy just ran off with my stuff.
These days private and official server alike they just offload that responsibility to the player that made the mistake. Vanilla/TBC GMs are ones I can remember being actually helpful and engaging. Now it's just a crapshoot if you even get one rather than an automated response telling you to go pound sand.
Ragnarok online had it. Youd have priests and acolytes sitting in town offering teleport services. Flat flee with tip. If you dont tip, next time they pretend to be afk and ignore you.
The interesting thing is the teleport stays up until the caster enters or after like 8 seconds or x amount of people. So the caster would place a portal down near the buyer and walks into it asap to prevent others from using it hehe.
Trying to decline a card (a gift card!) based on what the customer might tip is wild. I can't say I've ever even heard a service worker say the word "tip" out loud.
I've worked in service industry before, and "soliciting tips" was considered a breach of protocol there. Tipping culture exists, tippers exist, you don't need to bring it up unprompted.
Here any tip is welcomed, even if its a few euros to a meal that costs 80
The entitlement on percentage is crazy, they literally just bring your food over, what did they actually expect a 20% extra for that which should've been standard service?
We never recovered since covid.. prices went up 100% to 200% but only has gone down by maybe 50%.. but its still higher than before.
In just 5 years, we lost like almost half of our purchasing power and we are being replaced by jeets and hispanics.. while having our children be sterilized by rainbow propaganda.
The card terminals asking for tips for fucking take out and other places where it shouldn't even be applicable has definitely been getting under my skin. Asking to "round up" or flat out donate at the grocery store has been getting out of hand as well. Just let people be; especially given all the recent inflation.
That's totally unacceptable. I tip a lot when its deserved, and I tip a minimum or nothing with normal or bad service. You received bad service, you were right to tip nothing.
These assholes already got a tip increase. We all agree, 10% for normal job right?? But.. since the menu is like 150% to 200% more expensive, they make already double. So.. 10% of 10 dollars precovid is 1 dollar. After covid, 10% of 20 dollars is 2 dollars. Shit.... thats better than having a wage job or set salary job. What profession gains 100% in income within a year?? Lol.
Now they want 20%.. in 5 years they gained 200% income rofl so double on top of double. Excluding inflation.
I tip 20% unless their shit is all retarded, because I view it as the price of playing nice. It's compulsive. I like the average server and appreciate their attention more than I hate my job. I don't eat out much, to be fair, but it's often a situation where I'm paying for the dinner only, with someone else happily fielding a decent tip, or the reverse, when I am putting up the tip after someone else has paid for a meal. That sort of back and forth is good for brotherly social muju. You can be disproportionately rewarded forever by some blokes in a dive bar for what amounts to chump money. What do you do with small money anyway? Need to fix you car? Sort it out and then literally just spend that level of cash on your interactions with people. Inject it. 90% of it is food. Humans are obsessed with food. Hack the brains of everyone you know with this one simple trick. Tipping is basically a systemic abuse of the wisdom of generosity, so pick a rate you can feel good about in front of people and don't let it get out of hand, but I say: don't let such an amount of money affect your life undesirably when you choose to participate in social events.
One of the reasons, I stopped eating out. These waiters and waitresses have become too entitled. And it's not just waiters and waitresses, these days. It's all kinds of workers. If they are not being paid enough, then they need to talk to their employer about that. Not customers who are already paying insane prices. If they aren't making enough money, then you only tipping $10 is not the problem. Their employer is the problem(or all the people responsible for increasing the cost of living in the country). But they think they are entitled to customers just throwing money at them. Why is it your responsibility to make sure they are being paid enough money when you are just a customer who is already going to pay the prices that were shown to you on the menu? EDIT: Restaurant employees are almost behaving like gangsters nowadays. I've heard stories of customers not tipping enough being followed outside of the restaurant.
Exactly. It's just aggressively begging customers for money at this point. And not everyone who eats out is rich.
The service culture fell apart in America. In my view the waiters and waitresses just suck now. They don't do the job, they don't go above the basic demands of the job, and they don't seem to care if you want to come back or not. This was not the norm 40 years ago and it wouldn't have been tolerated. Even fucking Pizza Hut would give you half decent table service in the 80s.
I only eat at certain family run restaurants now. The small business culture is next. Support them while you can.
The service culture fell apart in America because we were never meant to be a service based economy, most of those jobs were traditionally meant for young adults who hadn’t yet found a decent career that would earn them enough to buy a house, a decent car, afford annual vacations, enough to raise a family, afford health insurance and still be able to save for a retirement. Now we are looking at 50+% of the workforce who is barely scraping by with some garbage service industry job, even higher percentage than that if we remove boomer aged workers from the equation…..most people under 45 are frustrated, and while they should just demand a higher wage from their employer, they know there’s a chance they’ll lose what little income they have if they do that, leading to an even worse position than they were in….and thanks to mass immigration, and widespread anti-White hiring practices (for White males especially), that job search could take precious time they don’t have before homelessness becomes a real possibility, so they look to the customer to help make a difference…..I get it, it’s wrong to expect the customers to make a difference in their lives, especially when the majority of people under under 45 are struggling to make ends meet just like their server…..as for boomers, the generation who decimated our economy in the name of maximizing profits, who are still living more than comfortably in a majority of cases, they have no right to whine about this issue since they’re responsible for creating it in the first place.
They've been trained to think the younger generation is entitled and simply isn't willing to work as hard as they did. They can see White genocide but they're also doing the calculus and realizing their 401k will probably sail them into the grave before they have to personally confront it.
I love my mother. This is one point we absolutely do not agree on. Fox news has given her all the justification she needs. Her feet are nailed to the floor. She literally said "...as long as I'm comfortable I kind of don't care." :(
I'm still not sure how to process that or incorporate it moving forward. Anyways.. completely agree with everything you said.
Does she have grandchildren? Not to dog on your mother but what a selfish shitty view. I know boomers can be like that, but usually they at least keep it to themselves and dont explicitly voice it.
The older they get, the filter comes off.
My Boomer parents are like that too. Push them enough and they will tell you they don’t care and it’s not their problem.
The poverty rate for those 65 and older is only marginally lower that that of those aged 18-64, 10.3% vs 10.5%.
What are you even talking about? Have you looked at the home ownership graph by age group? Nearly 80% of Boomers own at least one house, and roughly 40% of the houses in the U.S. are in their control, the rest are owned by investment bankers like BlackRock or they’re owned by import migrant groups because they get all sorts of help from the system to ensure they own a house and have a decent job. As for the majority of the White demographic outside of the boomer demographic, homeownership os completely out of the equation while rent skyrockets throughout the country, so they get to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in their life and have nothing to show for it, miss those rent payments because this j’wd exonomy has rigged the system against Whites and it’s time to find out what being homeless is all about. That’s poverty
Blame the 30 million illegal invaders for rocketing housing costs, not those who who worked their asses off their entire lives to have a home.
Dude, Boomers have been in charge since the 70’s, they’re directly and indirectly responsible for the demographic shift and a myriad of the other major problems plaguing our society, and it wasn’t just democrat boomers who are to blame. Look at how much support Reagan had from the boomers, they practically worship the dude and he turned California blue forever because those stupid hippy fucks have never confronted racial issues in a rational way, not only just lying to themselves so they don’t have to deal with uncomfortable racial problems, they actively enact policy that goes against White interests to “help” make life better for non-Whites. To this day I have to remind my own father repeatedly that browns do see race, and they hate our race, otherwise he will watch a movie like “Green Book” and immediately go right back to his hippy jewish conditioning where he believes racists are evil, that being in favor of the White community’s needs is evil, and the only way to break him out of that hippy bullshit is to show him videos of negroes attacking an innocent White people.
Meh I think its were your living at. Living in a mainstream metro somewhere, yeah this prolly the norm.
Canada, lmao is fucking retarded. People here dont refill your drinks or even talk to you other than getting your order and dropping off the bill, then they act like they did something to earn a tip, they dont earn it, they just expect it.
Maybe its changed in the last 15 years, but when I was still living in ohio, eating out was a pleasant experience. Me and my partner had a mexican place we liked to go to (ran by actual mexicans gasp). Or even somewhere generic like bob evans. And everyone would small talk and theyd refill your glass everytime it emptied. They didnt expect tips, but they certainly earned them. Man, I just really miss ohio.
You could easily start up a conversation with some rando standing on the corner waiting at the bus stop or whatever. Even in columbus. Cant do that in a place like halifax, everyone is just so cold. Their either staring into their phones or looking at the ground. No one wants to even look at each other, let alone talk to each other. I think I was randomly called faggot just walking down the street here more in 3 years than the 30 years I lived in ohio lmao.
My god its fucking bad in canada, people expect tips for just picking up a order at a drive through, and the food is always so fucking expensive and shitty as fuck, never worth the money.
How'd you end up in canuckistan? As someone still in Ohio, I can say that it definitely doesnt seem to be as bad as most other places. But perhaps not as good as it was when you were here?
The people are mostly good, but service quality definitely varies from place to place. Just gotta tip wisely I guess; positive reinforcement where it is applicable and negative where it is applicable.
But the trends over the last few years leave me very conflicted. As someone who makes solid money and up until now was fairly single, I always had a lot of extra on my hands so I kind of liked tipping because I could reward going above and beyond. But with the entitlement and the increased begging for tips where they arent applicable and with how thoroughly they have become expected given employers account for them in the pay structure, part of me wishes the genie could go back in the bottle.
The only place I happily tip generously anymore is my local sushi joint. Because the quality is good for the price and I am happy and grateful that the owner is operating such a place in my hometown and want it to be successful.
It has.
I've always been of two minds. When it's to effectively pay workers cash under the table that isn't taxed? Great. We should do that more with everything. Tip your waiter, tip your barber, tip your plumber.
When it's obligatory? Fuck off. I'll tip when I feel like it, when I get great service.
Especially if you go to see them regularly and they know you. It's nice to slide a few bucks to somebody you'll only see once every few months. But for the imported foreign labor of today? No way.
They just changed it so that tips are not taxed. Same for overtime. Now, I don't have an opinion on taxing tips, but not taxing overtime seems insane to me. Surely, you don't want to encourage overtime even more than it already is in the US?
Perhaps the aim was to reduce under-the-table arrangements.
I don't think the company cares if your overtime is taxed or not. They pay the same amount either way. Now, though, the worker putting that time in is basically getting a raise. What's the problem with that?
Right, but why should workers be incentivized to do overtime like this? What's special about overtime?
Well, it's a worker protection law in the US. If you work more than 40 hours in a week, you must get paid 150% of your normal rate for each extra hour. In many cases, the company is loathe to pay OT, and thus keeps workers to 40 hours or less. Some companies decide that the OT is worth it, and many guys (especially blue collar types) love to collect a bunch of premium pay every week. This system gives the company incentive to shy away from saying, "oh, we need a shift covered? Meh, just make Joe pick up a sixth day every week. Yay, problem solved!"
If you're trying to say income shouldn't be taxed at all, I agree with you. This is a good step, though.
Really? I thought overtime need not be paid out at all. If this is true, your laws are actually better than the European laws I know, where it depends on your contract and sometimes need not be paid out at all (although basically no one actually does it).
I don't quite get this. Doesn't this incentivize getting people to work more? Or do you mean forcing a random bastard to do it, who doesn't want to do it, beause they find willing people?
It's not realistic. That is what annoys me about the "taxation is theft" lolbertarians. If they spend it on collective goods for ME, then it is not theft. If they send it to Ukraine or bring in fake refugees to kill me, then it is.
In America there are two common wages: salary and paid per hour. 150% for overtime is typically referring to hourly paid employees. Salaried employees get fucked over and do not receive overtime pay, just a fixed annual wage, regardless of if the work in excess of 40 hours in a given week.
Yeah, though as PooperSnooper said, this doesn't apply to salaried workers. However, that's basically always for things like management, so the position won't stay filled for long if the company tries to lowball. Basically every "regular worker" including things like welders, etc. get paid hourly.
Really? Europe doesn't make companies pay more for over 40 hours?
I... guess? If you want the OT, that is. I'm not sure why that's bad, though. Certainly the company wouldn't pay 150% if they didn't have to, so a lot of them are anal about not paying any OT at all and getting their workers out right at 40 hours.
Yes, that's what I mean. If the premium wasn't there, they could easily force that poor bastard to do it without recourse or concern (because they would pay the same either way).
So how is it decided how many hours you work?
It differs by country. Some countries ban overtime outright, like France (because it destroys jobs for others, and supposedly because it's bad for workers' health) In other countries, unpaid overtime is allowed as long as it is not the norm. So you can't hire someone for 40 hours and then work him for 45 hours each week, but if it occasionally happens, it's an occupational hazard. Normally, this is reserved for higher-paid jobs, at least by our standards. In practice, it's almost never done except for management positions.
Just my opinion and the opinion of everyone here that Americans work way too much, and that they live to work rather than work to live as we do.
Ah, well that changes things, though I'd much rather have it that companies can't require overtime.
Most of the workers who do overtime love the extra money because they get paid time and a half. Not getting taxed on that makes it even better for them. While I wouldnt want to work that much, most people who actually do, or need to, love that change.
Some of us work overtime willingly to be able to provide more for our families or our hobbies and would kill to be allowed to willingly work more of it without taxes. In fact, it would make me work less of it to get the money I was seeking.
I like to do it. Anytime I get my haircut I pay with a card and tip in cash.
"There is now."
Tipping is a gift. Enforced tipping is just a shakedown.
I'm assuming this was probably at the shitty corporate steakhouse chain The Keg. Especially with the giftcard and the special upcharge for their special garlic potatoes over rice.
The most surprising thing about your anecdote & awful experience is that the manager had the audacity to come shake you down for the gratuity.
Surely with all of the diversity being introduced to Quebec & elsewhere, the waitresses at the corporate chains should be used to it by now to get stiffed for tips from the chinks, blacks & jeets.
But the staff can’t complain about them. It’ would be considered a hate crime.
Yep.. whites seem to tip the best. While blacks, chinese and jeets tips the worse lol.
I don't know if its the same in Canada, but at least here the company is forced to cover the wages if they don't make enough in tips to reach a certain level. So its probably a common thing to make sure he doesn't have to give up his money.
Quebec minimum wage is $16.10. Canada doesn't have any of those ridiculous crazy low hourly server wages expecting customers to subsidize them up to the legal threshold.
The manager unsolicitedly coming over to argue about a tip dispute that their entitled staff started, with anything other than an apology & perhaps a comp, is egregious.
Yeah in that case its absolutely over the line and the kind of thing that should tank a business entirely to have someone in thier management having the gall to try and shake you down for money.
Its one thing for an entry level employee to make that mistake, but the actual people running it is a sign that its enshrined and a genuine problem.
Wait staff is going to have to learn magic tricks, great jokes or start doing lap dances if they want that kind of money. And I'm going to start only tipping in cash and make them take off any pre-calculated tips on the bill.
They're going to have to live with the excitement of lifting my plate after I leave to see how much their tip is.
This is a big part of it here: tipping as you walked out the door used to be the norm.
This whole pre-calculated tips bs (incentivised by accounting needs for taxing tips) created a conditioning system.
Thanks to minimum wage laws, a lot of people stopped tipping. Yeah, you were making $3 an hour, and the rest from tips. Now you're making $15 an hour, and still want tips, while everything is 3x more expensive. Have fun.
Restaurants have a weird legal workaround for minimum wage laws thanks to tipping. Effectively here's how it works: the wait staff gets paid the standard minimum wage only if they fail to acquire enough tips to reach that minimum wage.
The rub is that there is usually very little middle ground; restaurants are usually either empty or busy. This means that the minimum wage barrier is usually broken by a significant margin.
Generally, the only people not reaching leagues above minimum wage due to tips are people so bad they don't deserve their job, or are in a restaurant/area so bad that nobody tips period.
Its why every attempt to remove the tipping culture and laws is met with incredible hate from the wait staff themselves, because they usually make fucking bank off it.
What a mess. I'm glad for our tipping culture in Europe, where in most places tipping is not done at all or rounding off or 5% is considered a generous tip. That said, you should also get used then to European levels of service, which are mostly OK to good, but not great.
In Japan, the service is absolutely excellent, and they will steadfastly refuse any tip. I'm not a weeaboo or whatever that is, but why can't the rest of the world be more like Japan?
Because Japanese society values its soul over GDP.
lol, not even close.
We shouldn't emulate anything regarding Japan's work culture. The country's labor standards are so bad that they're literally dying out from it.
I agree, regarding unpaid overtime (or overtime at all), not being able to take time off, but providing great service and politeness seems to be ingrained there.
Like Tucker said, visiting Japan is a radicalizing experience. It's possible to have very large cities where people are polite, decent, safe, and don't throw trash everywhere.
I don't know what "European" levels of service entails, but if it's more than showing up once, maybe twice to refill a beverage it's already leagues better than 'murica. What I used to consider subpar service 20 years ago is now apparently exemplary.
We don't have free refills here to begin with, you have to call on the waiter for him to pay you a visit. But waiters aren't smiling, making small-talk (which is the impression I get from TV), etc. - which is great for me because I'm used to the way we do it and I'd find it very annoying.
Also, in some touristic places (wink wink Paris) waiters are quite notoriously rude, which is why tourists will often say that "Parisians are rude" or even "the French are rude".
Waitresses make small talk because there is a culture here for female waitresses to butter up lonely men in exchange for tips.
Or just the tip.
That's what I learned from South Park. But they won't do that in Europe.
So you don't have someone looking around and refilling water glasses? Huh. At least it's consistent then. Here, sometimes you'll get refills without asking, and sometimes you won't be bothered for anything unless you flag them down. The latter group still wants their 30% tip though.
While I do like having someone ask "Do you want another <drink>?" or "Do you want more water?", I'd quite happily go without if it also meant not having to tip at all. I couldn't care less about smiling or small-talk.
In fact, there's no such thing as free water. You pay for that. I was quite surprised when I was outside of Europe and you just get a glass of water without being asked.
Because japan isn't run by coinclippers and their culture stems from tradition
For them to give you the best service is part of the job and not shekel seeking behaviour
Also they're not being paid starvation wages and the food is pretty cheap over there
Presentation is everything in Japan. It's so serious they have specific etiquette to hand out and receive business cards.
Even gift wrapping is an artform there.
I literally stopped eating out completely except for 1 restaurant which I support bitterly for having low prices. I mean, it's also a nice restaurant and I like the owner. I'm not bitter about supporting her, LOL. I am just spitefully not going anywhere else ever even when I want to. I work in finance so I see the real inventory costs. Prices go up for them 10% and they jack up the prices 250%. May they rot and die in hell.
Anyway, the tipping thing is very American, but I completely understand and agree. I would have been livid. Hell, I am livid without that additional bullshit. Fuck these people.
They don't produce anything, and they destroy the one thing they're supposed to create, a pleasant service and atmosphere.
Best places to eat have always been the holes in the wall.
rofl, who were you with?
Also, lol@ getting insulted for paying with a gift card that they issued.
Instituting tipping for literally everything was a brilliantly evil way to get employees angry with customers for their low pay instead of angry at their employer.
And with today's service quality, that scornful attitude definitely has taken hold.
Quebec nowadays legit sounds like a nightmare My mother visted my Aunt her sister and it was sort of anti-english experience tho that isn't unique to just her lol
French assholes.
I once had a layover in montreal, everything is in french, little bit of english here and there. Ask some security if im going the right way. Get snubbed because im speaking english.
Real pleasant folks there.
Yeah it's bad its very nationalistic in certain areas there your sort of treated like a 2nd class citizen if you only speak English
Signs/writing in english is really small too so finding your way around is hell or definitely can be more frustrating
If a job “requires” tips - typically food service - then tips are already built into the cost of the service. You think you can stop tipping your waiter? Cool. If enough people do so, then no one will work as a waiter until the restaurants shore up the lost wages directly. That cost will then be passed on to you, and you’ll probably complain about the increased prices. You might even stop eating out in protest, but you’re really just mad that other customers are no longer subsidizing your patronage. Because let’s face it, you were already a bad tipper—I mean “very principled non-tipper”. You know who else are very principled non-tippers? The most anti-social demographic in existence: blacks. Congratulations on your good company.
The problem isn’t tipping culture. The problem is inflation. The problem is fiat currency. The problem is stagnating wages. Having a portion of the economy reliably exist under the table, away from government bullshit, is actually a good thing.
The problem is tipping is a high trust manoeuvre and not punishing bad behavior from shitty third worlders or defective adult children have made it a low trust society. It's crazy that you think he's being subsidized by others at a 10-15% tip when half the country barely have the decency to flush a public toilet anymore. 10-15% is still probably way above average. Especially if you count dine and dashes as negative tips, since we're using them to balance the cost of services.
If it's baked into the costing then put it in the actual contract (aka the sticker price), don't just leave it to the more generous of society to pick up the slack of the ballooning feral population all by themselves.
Altruism only survives if it preferences itself first, but being firm handed is hard and feminized schooling made people weak. Either people with good moral intentions re-learn that fact, or they end up abused and extinct. Now is not the time to give more funds to people who most likely would not repay your good intentions. Do you really think most (young, female skewed) wait staff would rather donate to a trucker to pay legal costs to the government tyranny he was subject to, or some sob story of some random African with a sob story about moving to Canada with his 8 kids and their probably made up leukemia? Give those resources only to people you know deserve it and keep doing exclusively that forevermore. Blind charity in a world full of rats and rubes is just naive and dangerous.
Auto added, digitally paid tips at a chain restaurant do not even come close to existing under the table. That's the vast majority of tips these days, it's time to adapt to the current situation, not one from 30 years ago. The real problem here is the same one that caused stagnating wages in the first place: People not having the backbone to go against a system that exploits them and just making cope justifications for doing what they're told. There's no way all the tips you've paid in your life wouldn't have been better spent directly on causes and people who matter to you, tipping is just easier and less embarrassing.
It is painfully obvious that none of you have worked in food service before.
Servers have a very well defined average tip per table/ticket. That average functions as both an expected wage for the server and an expected cost for the customer. If that average falls too low, then no one wants the job.
Anyone who tips below the average is having their service subsidized by other customers. This is simple logic. It does not require a conscious decision, on the part of the above average tipper, to subsidize the non-tippers. You’re projecting a motivation onto a dynamic that requires none.
Outside of the very worst blue cities with overwhelmingly black customer bases, dine and dashes are exceedingly rare. So much so that they still go viral on social media. They are not a major factor in this calculus unless they are, at which point the restaurant will quickly become insolvent.
If your argument is that blacks ruin stuff, then “food service economies” is way down that list. Tipping culture works fine for most of the population in most areas. In places where blacks proliferate, you see automatic gratuities, and that’s literally the contact you’re asking for.
I live in a major American city. Top 20 market. The vast majority of restaurants here do not require automatic gratuities. That shit is mostly restricted to very high end dining, which is maybe 5% of all transactions? It is becoming more common in the biggest cities in America, precisely because of the increasing “feral population”, but again… automatic gratuity is functionally identical to a higher wage + higher cost. So where’s the issue here? You object to tipping in places where it doesn’t cause problems and you object to “fake tipping” everywhere else? Are you sure you aren’t just a eurofag stuck on outdated programming?
If your prices go up so dramatically that no one wants to eat at your restaurant anymore simply because you're paying your staff a proper wage then you're doing something wrong.
Tipping should be optional for excellent service. If tipping is required for your staff to have a living wage adjust your prices.
The average tip is baked into the cost. Why is this so hard for you people to grasp? It’s like you’re angry that a percentage of your bill is arbitrarily labeled as a different thing. Are you all seriously this low IQ?
I don't think you know what 'baked into' actually means.
Ya but I'm not trying to be attacked at the table for tipping 10%
Upvoted because you made a strong argument, but where did you read "very principled non-tipper"?
Given the fact that with tips, bad customers are subsidized by good customers, doesn't that make tips a bad thing? Not to mention that they (probably not true, but I've heard it from Muricans) might spit in your food next time if you don't tip to their satisfaction?
I'm very anti-social. I'm not tipping 50% or 100%. Even 20% is really pushing it. And I'm not tipping for something that involves no extra work, except where it is custom. It seems very strange to me to go to a restaurant, only to find out that you have to pay double the amount stated on the online menu.
I wouldn't go to any place that expects that. I already see tipping as a sign of labor exploitation. Informal income is income that can't serve to grow your financial credibility. It's worse than a proper wage.
You can manually claim all of your tips on your taxes if you choose to do so. I’ve known people who have done it precisely because they wanted to secure better terms for buying a house.
Again, it is glaringly obvious that none of you have actually worked in food service lol
That’s why I put it in quotes. It’s like the “very principled video game pirate” when, in reality, almost everyone who pirates games just doesn’t want to pay for games. Almost every anti-tipper I’ve ever known here in the states was nothing more than a cheapskate who wanted to save money. Most of them were black and/or white trash.
That part is bad. But as I’ve outlined in another comment, tipping relocates a not-insignificant portion of the transaction from “customer and store” to “customer and server”. That negotiated compensation results in a higher-than-minimum wage, one that cannot be completely eroded by the company targeting cheap immigrant labor. In a lot of areas, tipping also occurs effectively under the table via cash, locking the government out entirely. Admittedly, this last benefit is definitely vanishing. Trump tried to salvage it with no taxes on tips.
This phenomenon, much like dine and dashing, is exceedingly rare. Messing with food is a felony offense that is taken extremely seriously in America. Most food service people are simply too apathetic to do it. The ones who do? Once again, mostly blacks. And they are just as liable to do it regardless.
You’ve fallen for rage-bait social media posts. The vast majority of American restaurant service workers are making about 15% tips. 20% if they’re good (or an attractive female). Tipping is, as you say, also mechanism for rewarding good service. Bad servers are definitely punished with lower earnings.
That's a very broad brush. I pirate almost everything, because most things are not worth paying for. Certainly not the price that they demand.
So the reason is so that servers can't be replaced by immigrants? That's at least some sort of reason. I admit that there is value to having an extra voluntary contribution for service and things that you like, because that avoids a race to the bottom. It's just that I don't really encounter this in restaurants... yet.
Not at all, I didn't say that it's common. Just that it's ridiculous in the cases when it is. I do remember that it used to be 10%. But I was recently in a tipping country, and I saw for a simple drink a "tipping choice" of 15%, 30%, and "other" IIRC. Quite ridiculous. I'm not tipping you to hand me a drink.
I get the perspective you are coming from, but this is literally the same line that they use to justify illegal immigration and the need for paying those guys slave wages.
Its probably used in the same building to justify Jose and his buddies that work all the backroom cleaning and cooking.
It’s not the same logic at all. Because there is no shortfall in the wages. Because of tipping. That’s my entire point. The customers are paying the true cost, the servers are receiving an acceptable total wage, and the world keeps turning.
If anything, a fixed wage with no tipping would probably enable employers to lowball in pursuit of cheap immigrant labor. Instead, we have a system where employers can’t lowball - most server wages are literally already minimum - and the true wage is a more direct negotiation between service workers and customers. Sure enough, most of the servers in my area are white. The “less tipped” positions, the ones with fixed low wages, are occupied by non-white immigrants.
Its the exact same logic:
That's the entire business argument for illegal immigration simplified into one sentence. Including a "everybody wins really" justification of "business gets richer, customer gets 'better' prices, Jose/waiter is happy for the money."
I'm not anti-tipping as a concept, as I personally never had a situation where either it didn't motivate better service or I just walked out paying nothing for garbage service, as it should be. But "well if we don't the business will punish us for taking their pittance wages away" is the exact mindset we are fighting against.
So we found out what happened with Mr. Pink after "Reservoir Dogs"
Back when that was filmed, service was actually good and the waiter would be very happy to get 15%.
I've decided to sparingly indulge industries that expect tips, except individual businesses that don't fuss over tips. Where I am, that's just fast-food or grocery store deli when I'm lazy. I only get my hair cut every 18 months, so tipping is a negligible fraction of my budget. I used to be a generous tipper until the topic really got popularized, and had to confront that I'm enabling collectively degenerate behavuor. Took a bit to shake off habits indoctrinated by well meaning family.
This is one of the few things I really dread about moving to the US. From a British perspective, I just don't understand it. It seems to me like a completely cynical ploy by the service sector to offset the rightful conflict over wages which should be happening employee vs. employer, to employee vs. customer.
It's the same stupid thing about not having sales tax included in the sticker price. Americans always say to me 'Yeah but if the price on the shelf/menu included tax/tips, then nobody would ever buy!'
What difference does it make?! I'm paying the same amount regardless. In fact, if the tip is included, there's less ambiguity, so we don't have this awkward mind game every time I go to settle up.
I have tipped in the UK, where it is not expected, but only when I receive truly outstanding service. To have it be expected just feels like a shakedown.
There's a lot I love about American culture, and look forward to adopting myself, but tipping is not part of that.
Having experienced both, I still like sales tax separate because it's a constant reminder that taxes exist. Otherwise you get the income tax problem where people vote for stupid policies because they've never had to calculate taxes and send a check to the feds.
I suppose that is a secondary benefit of having it out there in the open like that--people can see just how much of their daily purchases are going to the government. Personally, I get pissed enough just looking at my payslips.
Like many things, I was first introduced to Tipping Culture in World of Warcraft. When a Mage made you a portal from Ironforge to Darnassus, you gave him some gold for the trouble. When an Alchemist used his 24-hour Arcanite Transmute cooldown for you, you supplied the materials and gave him a tip as thanks.
However, I quickly ran into a multitude of people that didn't want a "tip" they wanted a service charge. This made me mad. It was demanding that gift, instead of accepting it graciously as it came to you. I ended up just making all my own alts to do things like Arcanite or Spellweave cooldowns to avoid having to put up with what I thought was greedy behavior, especially when it was someone holding my materials hostage. I put up 5-10g (in Vanilla WoW), and they say 20g, 50g, maybe even more, and I have to fear if I would get a sympathetic GM if the guy just ran off with my stuff.
These days, I simply refuse to engage with any service that can possibly expect a tip. I go out to buy food from a pizza place maybe once a month, and patently refuse to go to a sit-down restaurant. Instead of getting the money from my meal, and maybe a tip, you now get absolutely nothing. I can eat beans & rice longer than you can remain solvent.
I find that 90% of my decisions these days are motivated by bad experiences and the resulting spite I have towards whoever caused it. Restaurants skipped, movies skipped, malls skipped, video games skipped. I wish I felt more things were worth my money.
Some of those made more sense in earlier versions of the game. Whereas now the game has been streamlined/gutted so that every class learns the best version of their spells without needing some special drop to learn the spell.
Mages needed not only reagents to create a portal but in some cases certain spells that people would benefit from like that required rare drops that could be very difficult to have drop or expensive to buy on the AH. Table of Refreshment for example in TBC was like this and needed 2 book drops to learn the original version and upgraded one that everyone wanted for raiding purposes. Mages making food/water for people going out questing was a thing since Vanilla and I remember doing this a lot at lower levels/Vanilla times because you had to create both food and water individually and sometimes manually select lower level versions of the spell so that whomever you were giving the items to could actually use them since they had level requirements. There was also the issue that you wouldn't always be making a full stack of 20 per craft, sometimes you only made 8 so had to do multiple crafts of one, then again multiple crafts of another. It would take a while and mounted up if you were doing this for multiple people.
So in some cases demanding/expecting a mage to give you the best conjured food/water for free in those days would be considered rude by the community at large. Now the conjure refreshment spell even changes depending on party status so you get personal crafts if solo but make the table if grouped.
Portals were the same, mages used to need reagents for those and if they ran out then they had to restock in a few specific locations. While this would be inevitable at least if the mats were covered by others requiring the service it was less of a hassle. Also originally those portals needed trained AT the city destination. If you wanted the Darnassus portal you needed to get to Darnassus yourself first and learn it in the main temple. Now you can simply learn every teleport and portal from the same NPC in Stormwind or any other city.
In part that's why from TBC onwards hub cities with portal networks became THE place people wanted toons/alts sent to set their hearthstone. Even if you skipped the intro to Shattrath you could set your HS in Lower City, or with the Aldor or Scryer and then simply HS back there and use the network to get to your faction cities providing the HS cooldown was ready. Dalaran in Wrath did this again, Vale in MOP, Ashran in WOD, Dalaran again in Legion, Boralus/Troll City in BFA, Oribos in SL, and Valdrakken in DF. It was so popular Blizz even started removing portals when the content was no longer current content, but only in BFA when all the various portals in Legion Dalaran were still that useful, which along with other things in BFA pissed off a lot of players at losing even more QoL from the game that had been going for years now.
(lol at the number of typos I had flag in that last paragraph because of all the city names)
Streamlining/gutting continues with faster HS cooldowns so hubs are more readily accessibly, even faster if in a guild - but guild perks are no longer something to grind because that was streamlined too - so the only things people tend to tip on now are crafts and even then it's more of a commission at times considering the mats that might be needed, rarity of the recipes involved, or simple service provided.
When I was playing on a private DF server I wouldn't ask for tips on work orders if all the mats were provided, it cost me basically nothing other than being on that alt that knew the recipe and clicking a few boxes either in my own time or something more specific like when helping someone make the legendary parts for the axe or Drac'thyr staff since coordinating that sped things up. And in those cases I learned a recipe for free on my alts anyway which my own alts could then benefit from if I ever got the weapons myself, which I didn't but it was still benefiting me slightly. Also meant I could do the crafts again for others. In most cases where I offered those free crafts as long as mats were provided I got a tip of several thousand gold, which wasn't really important on the private server for a list of reasons, but it was still something done entirely by the other player, and I would often get returning customers because of this. The Mail wrists that were BIS for Hunters, Shaman, and Evokers that season 2 added weren't something many bothered learning for whatever reason but having those alts myself I learned the recipe and made them for my alts. I also made them for some players in s2 a few times, upgraded them if they got better mats, and then later again upgraded them in s3 and s4 because the players knew I had the recipe and would do the recrafts for them if they had the mats.
Similarly I knew someone that knew the Elemental Lariat recipe and would do it for free if you provided the mats. This was a recipe that in retail had raiding guilds offering the literal gold cap to anyone that had it dropped in the early weeks of launch because it was that good for most of the expansion. Meanwhile the player I knew didn't charge extra just because he knew it while others would be and charging thousands of gold because everyone wanted it throughout s1 to s3 with it being still good in s4 but less so due to how stats were for some classes at that point.
These days private and official server alike they just offload that responsibility to the player that made the mistake. Vanilla/TBC GMs are ones I can remember being actually helpful and engaging. Now it's just a crapshoot if you even get one rather than an automated response telling you to go pound sand.
Ragnarok online had it. Youd have priests and acolytes sitting in town offering teleport services. Flat flee with tip. If you dont tip, next time they pretend to be afk and ignore you.
The interesting thing is the teleport stays up until the caster enters or after like 8 seconds or x amount of people. So the caster would place a portal down near the buyer and walks into it asap to prevent others from using it hehe.
I'm basically Mr. Pink from Reservoir Dogs when it comes to tipping lol I'll do it if service is good and I like waiter or waitress tho
Big tits and some flirting goes a long way lol.
Trying to decline a card (a gift card!) based on what the customer might tip is wild. I can't say I've ever even heard a service worker say the word "tip" out loud.
I've worked in service industry before, and "soliciting tips" was considered a breach of protocol there. Tipping culture exists, tippers exist, you don't need to bring it up unprompted.
Shit like this makes glad i'm not an American
Here any tip is welcomed, even if its a few euros to a meal that costs 80
The entitlement on percentage is crazy, they literally just bring your food over, what did they actually expect a 20% extra for that which should've been standard service?
Fuck, Americans are insane.
The anecdote is from Quebec, in Canada.
It's the closest you can get to EU culture in North America (save for St. Pierre et Miquelon).
We never recovered since covid.. prices went up 100% to 200% but only has gone down by maybe 50%.. but its still higher than before.
In just 5 years, we lost like almost half of our purchasing power and we are being replaced by jeets and hispanics.. while having our children be sterilized by rainbow propaganda.
The card terminals asking for tips for fucking take out and other places where it shouldn't even be applicable has definitely been getting under my skin. Asking to "round up" or flat out donate at the grocery store has been getting out of hand as well. Just let people be; especially given all the recent inflation.
That's totally unacceptable. I tip a lot when its deserved, and I tip a minimum or nothing with normal or bad service. You received bad service, you were right to tip nothing.
These assholes already got a tip increase. We all agree, 10% for normal job right?? But.. since the menu is like 150% to 200% more expensive, they make already double. So.. 10% of 10 dollars precovid is 1 dollar. After covid, 10% of 20 dollars is 2 dollars. Shit.... thats better than having a wage job or set salary job. What profession gains 100% in income within a year?? Lol.
Now they want 20%.. in 5 years they gained 200% income rofl so double on top of double. Excluding inflation.
I tip 20% unless their shit is all retarded, because I view it as the price of playing nice. It's compulsive. I like the average server and appreciate their attention more than I hate my job. I don't eat out much, to be fair, but it's often a situation where I'm paying for the dinner only, with someone else happily fielding a decent tip, or the reverse, when I am putting up the tip after someone else has paid for a meal. That sort of back and forth is good for brotherly social muju. You can be disproportionately rewarded forever by some blokes in a dive bar for what amounts to chump money. What do you do with small money anyway? Need to fix you car? Sort it out and then literally just spend that level of cash on your interactions with people. Inject it. 90% of it is food. Humans are obsessed with food. Hack the brains of everyone you know with this one simple trick. Tipping is basically a systemic abuse of the wisdom of generosity, so pick a rate you can feel good about in front of people and don't let it get out of hand, but I say: don't let such an amount of money affect your life undesirably when you choose to participate in social events.
You don't have to tip bro...
This just in: Quebecois are entitled assholes with now ability to manage money.