If a job “requires” tips - typically food service - then tips are already built into the cost of the service. You think you can stop tipping your waiter? Cool. If enough people do so, then no one will work as a waiter until the restaurants shore up the lost wages directly. That cost will then be passed on to you, and you’ll probably complain about the increased prices. You might even stop eating out in protest, but you’re really just mad that other customers are no longer subsidizing your patronage. Because let’s face it, you were already a bad tipper—I mean “very principled non-tipper”. You know who else are very principled non-tippers? The most anti-social demographic in existence: blacks. Congratulations on your good company.
The problem isn’t tipping culture. The problem is inflation. The problem is fiat currency. The problem is stagnating wages. Having a portion of the economy reliably exist under the table, away from government bullshit, is actually a good thing.
The problem is tipping is a high trust manoeuvre and not punishing bad behavior from shitty third worlders or defective adult children have made it a low trust society. It's crazy that you think he's being subsidized by others at a 10-15% tip when half the country barely have the decency to flush a public toilet anymore. 10-15% is still probably way above average. Especially if you count dine and dashes as negative tips, since we're using them to balance the cost of services.
If it's baked into the costing then put it in the actual contract (aka the sticker price), don't just leave it to the more generous of society to pick up the slack of the ballooning feral population all by themselves.
Altruism only survives if it preferences itself first, but being firm handed is hard and feminized schooling made people weak. Either people with good moral intentions re-learn that fact, or they end up abused and extinct. Now is not the time to give more funds to people who most likely would not repay your good intentions. Do you really think most (young, female skewed) wait staff would rather donate to a trucker to pay legal costs to the government tyranny he was subject to, or some sob story of some random African with a sob story about moving to Canada with his 8 kids and their probably made up leukemia? Give those resources only to people you know deserve it and keep doing exclusively that forevermore. Blind charity in a world full of rats and rubes is just naive and dangerous.
The problem isn’t tipping culture. The problem is inflation. The problem is fiat currency. The problem is stagnating wages. Having a portion of the economy reliably exist under the table, away from government bullshit, is actually a good thing
Auto added, digitally paid tips at a chain restaurant do not even come close to existing under the table. That's the vast majority of tips these days, it's time to adapt to the current situation, not one from 30 years ago. The real problem here is the same one that caused stagnating wages in the first place: People not having the backbone to go against a system that exploits them and just making cope justifications for doing what they're told. There's no way all the tips you've paid in your life wouldn't have been better spent directly on causes and people who matter to you, tipping is just easier and less embarrassing.
It's crazy that you think he's being subsidized by others at a 10-15% tip when half the country barely have the decency to flush a public toilet anymore.
It is painfully obvious that none of you have worked in food service before.
Servers have a very well defined average tip per table/ticket. That average functions as both an expected wage for the server and an expected cost for the customer. If that average falls too low, then no one wants the job.
Anyone who tips below the average is having their service subsidized by other customers. This is simple logic. It does not require a conscious decision, on the part of the above average tipper, to subsidize the non-tippers. You’re projecting a motivation onto a dynamic that requires none.
10-15% is still probably way above average. Especially if you count dine and dashes as negative tips, since we're using them to balance the cost of services.
Outside of the very worst blue cities with overwhelmingly black customer bases, dine and dashes are exceedingly rare. So much so that they still go viral on social media. They are not a major factor in this calculus unless they are, at which point the restaurant will quickly become insolvent.
If it's baked into the costing then put it in the actual contract (aka the sticker price), don't just leave it to the more generous of society to pick up the slack of the ballooning feral population all by themselves.
If your argument is that blacks ruin stuff, then “food service economies” is way down that list. Tipping culture works fine for most of the population in most areas. In places where blacks proliferate, you see automatic gratuities, and that’s literally the contact you’re asking for.
Auto added, digitally paid tips at a chain restaurant do not even come close to existing under the table. That's the vast majority of tips these days, it's time to adapt to the current situation, not one from 30 years ago.
I live in a major American city. Top 20 market. The vast majority of restaurants here do not require automatic gratuities. That shit is mostly restricted to very high end dining, which is maybe 5% of all transactions? It is becoming more common in the biggest cities in America, precisely because of the increasing “feral population”, but again… automatic gratuity is functionally identical to a higher wage + higher cost. So where’s the issue here? You object to tipping in places where it doesn’t cause problems and you object to “fake tipping” everywhere else? Are you sure you aren’t just a eurofag stuck on outdated programming?
If your prices go up so dramatically that no one wants to eat at your restaurant anymore simply because you're paying your staff a proper wage then you're doing something wrong.
Tipping should be optional for excellent service. If tipping is required for your staff to have a living wage adjust your prices.
The average tip is baked into the cost. Why is this so hard for you people to grasp? It’s like you’re angry that a percentage of your bill is arbitrarily labeled as a different thing. Are you all seriously this low IQ?
Upvoted because you made a strong argument, but where did you read "very principled non-tipper"?
Given the fact that with tips, bad customers are subsidized by good customers, doesn't that make tips a bad thing? Not to mention that they (probably not true, but I've heard it from Muricans) might spit in your food next time if you don't tip to their satisfaction?
I'm very anti-social. I'm not tipping 50% or 100%. Even 20% is really pushing it. And I'm not tipping for something that involves no extra work, except where it is custom. It seems very strange to me to go to a restaurant, only to find out that you have to pay double the amount stated on the online menu.
I wouldn't go to any place that expects that. I already see tipping as a sign of labor exploitation. Informal income is income that can't serve to grow your financial credibility. It's worse than a proper wage.
You can manually claim all of your tips on your taxes if you choose to do so. I’ve known people who have done it precisely because they wanted to secure better terms for buying a house.
Again, it is glaringly obvious that none of you have actually worked in food service lol
That’s why I put it in quotes. It’s like the “very principled video game pirate” when, in reality, almost everyone who pirates games just doesn’t want to pay for games. Almost every anti-tipper I’ve ever known here in the states was nothing more than a cheapskate who wanted to save money. Most of them were black and/or white trash.
Given the fact that with tips, bad customers are subsidized by good customers, doesn't that make tips a bad thing?
That part is bad. But as I’ve outlined in another comment, tipping relocates a not-insignificant portion of the transaction from “customer and store” to “customer and server”. That negotiated compensation results in a higher-than-minimum wage, one that cannot be completely eroded by the company targeting cheap immigrant labor. In a lot of areas, tipping also occurs effectively under the table via cash, locking the government out entirely. Admittedly, this last benefit is definitely vanishing. Trump tried to salvage it with no taxes on tips.
Not to mention that they (probably not true, but I've heard it from Muricans) might spit in your food next time if you don't tip to their satisfaction?
This phenomenon, much like dine and dashing, is exceedingly rare. Messing with food is a felony offense that is taken extremely seriously in America. Most food service people are simply too apathetic to do it. The ones who do? Once again, mostly blacks. And they are just as liable to do it regardless.
I'm not tipping 50% or 100%.
You’ve fallen for rage-bait social media posts. The vast majority of American restaurant service workers are making about 15% tips. 20% if they’re good (or an attractive female). Tipping is, as you say, also mechanism for rewarding good service. Bad servers are definitely punished with lower earnings.
It’s like the “very principled video game pirate” when, in reality, almost everyone who pirates games just doesn’t want to pay for games.
That's a very broad brush. I pirate almost everything, because most things are not worth paying for. Certainly not the price that they demand.
That negotiated compensation results in a higher-than-minimum wage, one that cannot be completely eroded by the company targeting cheap immigrant labor. In a lot of areas, tipping also occurs effectively under the table via cash, locking the government out entirely. Admittedly, this last benefit is definitely vanishing. Trump tried to salvage it with no taxes on tips.
So the reason is so that servers can't be replaced by immigrants? That's at least some sort of reason. I admit that there is value to having an extra voluntary contribution for service and things that you like, because that avoids a race to the bottom. It's just that I don't really encounter this in restaurants... yet.
You’ve fallen for rage-bait social media posts. The vast majority of American restaurant service workers are making about 15% tips. 20% if they’re good (or an attractive female). Tipping is, as you say, also mechanism for rewarding good service. Bad servers are definitely punished with lower earnings.
Not at all, I didn't say that it's common. Just that it's ridiculous in the cases when it is. I do remember that it used to be 10%. But I was recently in a tipping country, and I saw for a simple drink a "tipping choice" of 15%, 30%, and "other" IIRC. Quite ridiculous. I'm not tipping you to hand me a drink.
then no one will work as a waiter until the restaurants shore up the lost wages directly. That cost will then be passed on to you, and you’ll probably complain about the increased prices
I get the perspective you are coming from, but this is literally the same line that they use to justify illegal immigration and the need for paying those guys slave wages.
Its probably used in the same building to justify Jose and his buddies that work all the backroom cleaning and cooking.
It’s not the same logic at all. Because there is no shortfall in the wages. Because of tipping. That’s my entire point. The customers are paying the true cost, the servers are receiving an acceptable total wage, and the world keeps turning.
If anything, a fixed wage with no tipping would probably enable employers to lowball in pursuit of cheap immigrant labor. Instead, we have a system where employers can’t lowball - most server wages are literally already minimum - and the true wage is a more direct negotiation between service workers and customers. Sure enough, most of the servers in my area are white. The “less tipped” positions, the ones with fixed low wages, are occupied by non-white immigrants.
If we don't pay them well below a real wage, then you the customer will have to offset the difference for us through massive price increases
That's the entire business argument for illegal immigration simplified into one sentence. Including a "everybody wins really" justification of "business gets richer, customer gets 'better' prices, Jose/waiter is happy for the money."
I'm not anti-tipping as a concept, as I personally never had a situation where either it didn't motivate better service or I just walked out paying nothing for garbage service, as it should be. But "well if we don't the business will punish us for taking their pittance wages away" is the exact mindset we are fighting against.
If a job “requires” tips - typically food service - then tips are already built into the cost of the service. You think you can stop tipping your waiter? Cool. If enough people do so, then no one will work as a waiter until the restaurants shore up the lost wages directly. That cost will then be passed on to you, and you’ll probably complain about the increased prices. You might even stop eating out in protest, but you’re really just mad that other customers are no longer subsidizing your patronage. Because let’s face it, you were already a bad tipper—I mean “very principled non-tipper”. You know who else are very principled non-tippers? The most anti-social demographic in existence: blacks. Congratulations on your good company.
The problem isn’t tipping culture. The problem is inflation. The problem is fiat currency. The problem is stagnating wages. Having a portion of the economy reliably exist under the table, away from government bullshit, is actually a good thing.
The problem is tipping is a high trust manoeuvre and not punishing bad behavior from shitty third worlders or defective adult children have made it a low trust society. It's crazy that you think he's being subsidized by others at a 10-15% tip when half the country barely have the decency to flush a public toilet anymore. 10-15% is still probably way above average. Especially if you count dine and dashes as negative tips, since we're using them to balance the cost of services.
If it's baked into the costing then put it in the actual contract (aka the sticker price), don't just leave it to the more generous of society to pick up the slack of the ballooning feral population all by themselves.
Altruism only survives if it preferences itself first, but being firm handed is hard and feminized schooling made people weak. Either people with good moral intentions re-learn that fact, or they end up abused and extinct. Now is not the time to give more funds to people who most likely would not repay your good intentions. Do you really think most (young, female skewed) wait staff would rather donate to a trucker to pay legal costs to the government tyranny he was subject to, or some sob story of some random African with a sob story about moving to Canada with his 8 kids and their probably made up leukemia? Give those resources only to people you know deserve it and keep doing exclusively that forevermore. Blind charity in a world full of rats and rubes is just naive and dangerous.
Auto added, digitally paid tips at a chain restaurant do not even come close to existing under the table. That's the vast majority of tips these days, it's time to adapt to the current situation, not one from 30 years ago. The real problem here is the same one that caused stagnating wages in the first place: People not having the backbone to go against a system that exploits them and just making cope justifications for doing what they're told. There's no way all the tips you've paid in your life wouldn't have been better spent directly on causes and people who matter to you, tipping is just easier and less embarrassing.
It is painfully obvious that none of you have worked in food service before.
Servers have a very well defined average tip per table/ticket. That average functions as both an expected wage for the server and an expected cost for the customer. If that average falls too low, then no one wants the job.
Anyone who tips below the average is having their service subsidized by other customers. This is simple logic. It does not require a conscious decision, on the part of the above average tipper, to subsidize the non-tippers. You’re projecting a motivation onto a dynamic that requires none.
Outside of the very worst blue cities with overwhelmingly black customer bases, dine and dashes are exceedingly rare. So much so that they still go viral on social media. They are not a major factor in this calculus unless they are, at which point the restaurant will quickly become insolvent.
If your argument is that blacks ruin stuff, then “food service economies” is way down that list. Tipping culture works fine for most of the population in most areas. In places where blacks proliferate, you see automatic gratuities, and that’s literally the contact you’re asking for.
I live in a major American city. Top 20 market. The vast majority of restaurants here do not require automatic gratuities. That shit is mostly restricted to very high end dining, which is maybe 5% of all transactions? It is becoming more common in the biggest cities in America, precisely because of the increasing “feral population”, but again… automatic gratuity is functionally identical to a higher wage + higher cost. So where’s the issue here? You object to tipping in places where it doesn’t cause problems and you object to “fake tipping” everywhere else? Are you sure you aren’t just a eurofag stuck on outdated programming?
If your prices go up so dramatically that no one wants to eat at your restaurant anymore simply because you're paying your staff a proper wage then you're doing something wrong.
Tipping should be optional for excellent service. If tipping is required for your staff to have a living wage adjust your prices.
The average tip is baked into the cost. Why is this so hard for you people to grasp? It’s like you’re angry that a percentage of your bill is arbitrarily labeled as a different thing. Are you all seriously this low IQ?
I don't think you know what 'baked into' actually means.
Ya but I'm not trying to be attacked at the table for tipping 10%
Upvoted because you made a strong argument, but where did you read "very principled non-tipper"?
Given the fact that with tips, bad customers are subsidized by good customers, doesn't that make tips a bad thing? Not to mention that they (probably not true, but I've heard it from Muricans) might spit in your food next time if you don't tip to their satisfaction?
I'm very anti-social. I'm not tipping 50% or 100%. Even 20% is really pushing it. And I'm not tipping for something that involves no extra work, except where it is custom. It seems very strange to me to go to a restaurant, only to find out that you have to pay double the amount stated on the online menu.
I wouldn't go to any place that expects that. I already see tipping as a sign of labor exploitation. Informal income is income that can't serve to grow your financial credibility. It's worse than a proper wage.
You can manually claim all of your tips on your taxes if you choose to do so. I’ve known people who have done it precisely because they wanted to secure better terms for buying a house.
Again, it is glaringly obvious that none of you have actually worked in food service lol
That’s why I put it in quotes. It’s like the “very principled video game pirate” when, in reality, almost everyone who pirates games just doesn’t want to pay for games. Almost every anti-tipper I’ve ever known here in the states was nothing more than a cheapskate who wanted to save money. Most of them were black and/or white trash.
That part is bad. But as I’ve outlined in another comment, tipping relocates a not-insignificant portion of the transaction from “customer and store” to “customer and server”. That negotiated compensation results in a higher-than-minimum wage, one that cannot be completely eroded by the company targeting cheap immigrant labor. In a lot of areas, tipping also occurs effectively under the table via cash, locking the government out entirely. Admittedly, this last benefit is definitely vanishing. Trump tried to salvage it with no taxes on tips.
This phenomenon, much like dine and dashing, is exceedingly rare. Messing with food is a felony offense that is taken extremely seriously in America. Most food service people are simply too apathetic to do it. The ones who do? Once again, mostly blacks. And they are just as liable to do it regardless.
You’ve fallen for rage-bait social media posts. The vast majority of American restaurant service workers are making about 15% tips. 20% if they’re good (or an attractive female). Tipping is, as you say, also mechanism for rewarding good service. Bad servers are definitely punished with lower earnings.
That's a very broad brush. I pirate almost everything, because most things are not worth paying for. Certainly not the price that they demand.
So the reason is so that servers can't be replaced by immigrants? That's at least some sort of reason. I admit that there is value to having an extra voluntary contribution for service and things that you like, because that avoids a race to the bottom. It's just that I don't really encounter this in restaurants... yet.
Not at all, I didn't say that it's common. Just that it's ridiculous in the cases when it is. I do remember that it used to be 10%. But I was recently in a tipping country, and I saw for a simple drink a "tipping choice" of 15%, 30%, and "other" IIRC. Quite ridiculous. I'm not tipping you to hand me a drink.
I get the perspective you are coming from, but this is literally the same line that they use to justify illegal immigration and the need for paying those guys slave wages.
Its probably used in the same building to justify Jose and his buddies that work all the backroom cleaning and cooking.
It’s not the same logic at all. Because there is no shortfall in the wages. Because of tipping. That’s my entire point. The customers are paying the true cost, the servers are receiving an acceptable total wage, and the world keeps turning.
If anything, a fixed wage with no tipping would probably enable employers to lowball in pursuit of cheap immigrant labor. Instead, we have a system where employers can’t lowball - most server wages are literally already minimum - and the true wage is a more direct negotiation between service workers and customers. Sure enough, most of the servers in my area are white. The “less tipped” positions, the ones with fixed low wages, are occupied by non-white immigrants.
Its the exact same logic:
That's the entire business argument for illegal immigration simplified into one sentence. Including a "everybody wins really" justification of "business gets richer, customer gets 'better' prices, Jose/waiter is happy for the money."
I'm not anti-tipping as a concept, as I personally never had a situation where either it didn't motivate better service or I just walked out paying nothing for garbage service, as it should be. But "well if we don't the business will punish us for taking their pittance wages away" is the exact mindset we are fighting against.