Original post: https://www.aaronrenn.com/p/stop-shaming-men
Archive post: https://archive.ph/JzmQy
It’s one of the most well known facts in social science that women initiate the vast majority of divorces – around 70% or so depending on the source you look at. It’s a fact I have never heard an evangelical pastor mention. In fact, as one feminist scholar found in her academic research, in evangelical sermons ‘women are framed primarily as receivers of divorce rather than initiators.’ And, while there have been improvements, divorce court and child custody practices still favor women. . . . It’s also worth asking what Blake – and by extension the rest of the evangelical leadership class – are doing to reduce these risks, help men manage them, or to create an environment in which men have a better chance of marital success. The answer is basically nothing. . . . They could tell men, “Get married and we’ve got your back.” But they don’t. Instead, should some man actually get married and any troubles arise, they will almost certainly blame him for it.”
Evangelicals, is there nothing they can't fuck up?
I am Christian and married myself, though I absolutely understand why many men would avoid that lifestyle these days. Marrying the wrong person is a cheat code to ruining your life and there are a lot more wrong people out there than right people.
Yup. Feminism has ruined women, and the few good ones left are naturally taken.
Sometimes I watch Sam Hyde's streams where he creates a burner account on bumble or tinder and spends hours swiping. It's brutal out there for single guys. If something happened to my wife I'd probably never try to date again. I have no idea how to prepare my son to navigate all this either.
At least you're thinking about how to prepare him, my parents gave me fuck all for advice when I was growing up and even approaching them later in life...well my dad's advice was basically to get lucky. So yeah, you're doing better than the previous generation at least.
The world your parents grew up is completely gone. My parents are the same way, they have no clue what the current dating scene is like. They just say, "It'll happen when it happens" and prefer to avoid the discussion entirely.
I can relate to that. My parents didn’t prepare me for anything either. I fell into just about every pitfall there was when I was in my twenties. I learned every lesson the hard way. My son will have to make his own choices but he’ll have my guidance to fall back on.
I can assure you that my own were even less helpful. Their boomer perception was even more ancient, since they got married almost right after high school, so they had a very short period of actually experiencing any kind of a dating scene. Back then, blind dates or dating people within a circle of friends was common. Or just asking out a fellow high school student in the neighborhood.
So they really didn't have any remotely usable advice. And good luck on anything even resembling emotional support in the area. A Vulcan or an Android would've been able to provide more meaningful feedback.
That last line…damn.
I try very hard to not have regrets in my life, but one observation I make is that it would have been way easier to marry much earlier in life than most people (including religious "leaders") recommend.
Had I married the girl from high school who I was kinda into and who in retrospect was quite obviously into me, things in my life would have been very different but I probably would have figured out how to make them work. And I wouldn't have to think about how to make dating in my 40s work.
I can empathize with those kinds of regrets, even though I sort of railed on my own parents who did something similar to what you say you wish you'd done yourself in my other comment.
At the same time though I've seen and heard so many examples of how often getting married too early can end up biting people in the ass, since they're still at that stage where they're trying to find their own path in life.
I'm not sure at what exact age your situation was occurring, but I do think there is a certain "sweet spot" kind of age that tends to work out best. At least in a relatively normal non-clown world society. I also think college and the sheer length of time it eats up has become a bit of a conundrum that often causes a lot of people to miss that sweet spot. Especially for those who don't have clear career goals almost from the moment they start going to college. And colleges have done an increasingly piss poor job of making anything go smoothly.
I think another important observation that makes it difficult is that the 'sweet spot' is different for different people, because people mature at different rates. I know that if I had gotten married in my early 20s, I would have made a complete pig's ear of it and would probably be divorced now, because I was still a stupid kid who didn't know what he wanted from life. Other people that age are much more impressive and really have their head screwed on straight, usually because they experienced more difficulties in life than I did, so them getting married at that age would be a lot safer.
That's probably another reason why people used to get married a lot younger, because people were forced to mature much earlier and didn't have this extended adolescence we have today.
I'm glad I waited, but at the same time getting married later presents its own problems. There's less time for my wife and I to live together as just the two of us because neither of us are getting any younger and we want to have kids before we're out of that peak fertility window.
Overall I guess people used to get married earlier because 1. It makes more sense biologically and sociologically to pair up sooner and 2. The quality of people's upbringing (and the people themselves) was better in the past, so they didn't have to worry so much about their immaturity going into their 20s.
I certainly agree, that sweet spot can vary from individual to individual. That's why I tried to describe it with a somewhat broad yet generally applicable range. There's always going to be a few tradeoffs, however that plays out, but that's just how most things in life tend to go.
I'd add one more thing to your stated reasons for why relationships tend to develop later on in life than they did in the past: There's far more distractions. And I'm not talking about "youngsters and their phones", but the vast number hobbies, entertainment, and general preoccupations that can end up eating up solid volume of time. Granted, in the past they also didn't have as many practical conveniences either, and thus a lot of time had to be devoted to fairly consuming yet necessary chores.
Mind you, I'm not making any kind of a moral or ethical statement when I say that, just stating it as a matter of reality. I think future generations will have a better handle on how to manage their priorities though, I've already seen this pop up occasionally with a few self-aware and observant zoomers every now and then.
A good friend of mine from HS got married when he was still in college, and they waited a few years after graduation to have kids. He and his wife are still together; and their kids are coming up on HS age. So it can and did work out even among people I know, though he was certainly an outlier.
Another good HS friend was in the "no clear career goals" camp and drifted around a bit after college, and getting married seemed to have forced him to actually get his shit together so he could put food on the table.
Which is to say that there can also be some good that comes of it. Though these were both deeply religious people, so probably everyone in their life was telling them to make it work.
And it's not just college that causes people to miss the "sweet spot" but the fact kids are often moving away from home to attend college. And then moving away from where they attended college to start a career. So everything in life up to that point has a built-in time limit, and every time the timer resets you have to rebuild your social life from zero.
That would have been unusual 100 years ago.
It's going to be strange to see how things continue to develop with regards to social circles in the future due to the widespread presence of social media and the Internet.
I mean admittedly we've already had at least a decade or two to see how some of it plays out, but it's definitely been evolving at a faster and stranger pace than I ever could've anticipated. Not that it's necessarily a "bad thing", but it is rather strange and sometimes unpredictable.
And I'm still not sure if it's been a more positive or negative thing for those who grew up developing social circles and finding dates in person at a local level. Especially since some of those negative aspects can be attributed to design decisions made by the companies creating and managing online apps and platforms.
In either case it's certainly not been the easiest thing to try and adapt to.
I married at 23 and my wife was 22. I got LOTS of shit during those hedonistic times of the mid/late 00s. Boomers said I was too young and I should live.a little while young people had no desire for that level of commitment.
Best decision of my life. It’s not always easy, but it’s easier than being single now.
Tell him what my father told me when I was 13, pray that the Lord lead you to a good wife and help you along the way. I definitely was guided and won the lottery with my wife. I gave the same advice to both my sons. I'd love to say they followed it to the letter, but they both got married more because they were afraid they'd never find the right woman. One definitely found his soulmate. She's far from perfect but they definitely go together. The other, the jury is still out, and we have had our moments of concern that she'll bail for purely selfish reasons.
Church really is the last reliable place to find decent women. If I hadn't found my wife there I really have no idea where I'd even begin to look.
Even there you can have some crazy, fanatical women. The one girl my son dated, specifically, through the Church came at him with a knife over something trivial.
Wow that's crazy, but unfortunately not that surprising. We're all immersed in modernity, and women are particularly susceptible to the influences that seem to drive them insane. I hope your son didn't get too emotionally scarred by that whole fiasco.
Nope not scarred by that, but scarred by the the girl he met on an adult dating site who lied that she was 18 and was actually 14 yr. He went to jail and suffered for years simply because a girl lied about her age. There is all kinds of proof, to include the girls confession that he was entrapped, but the laws (written by the Devil) require men to be omniscient and know the truth regardless of what they're told.
I'm sorry to hear that man, that's awful. It really is an absolute minefield out there for men today. I can totally understand why some men just give up on women completely. I'll pray for your son, for what it's worth.
BTW, it's no picnic for women either. I have a woman in her late 20's who has no idea how she can find a real man who is devoted to Catholic/Christian values. Every guy she meets is basically a practicing atheist. The last guy that asked her out said he'd go to Church with her and consider faith while he did, to which I told her meant "I'll pretend to care while I use the time to work my way into your pants". He's a good guy but she wisely passed.
Thanks, I can't tell you how much that's appreciated. It's pretty obvious this is the Devil's world when I have three young professionals living with me who all got fired, while they were the best performers at their job based on the jobs performance measurements.
Fucking hell that's scary, this is why I'm always going to ask a girl for her ID if I even hang out alone with her and I don't care if it pisses her off and every guy should do the same. I also think it should be a rule you never interact with a girl alone under the age of 20 just because adult male/teenager always has negative connation's.
Yeah, he started doing that immediately thereafter, but the sad part is girls get fake IDs. Heck my mom ( a very Christian woman) bragged about doing it when she was a teenager and was 100% fine with my sister doing the same. Pray is pretty much all you can do. My son just hit his one year anniversary with his wife, who is a great match for him. God chastises those he loves, and, I think, seriously bitch-slaps those He really loves if they step out of line.
I have a more detailed post in this thread, but church actively makes it impossible to date as a single man in favor of married men picking up a side chick.
Huh, didn't know we were that far down the degeneracy slope yet.
Yeah I saw all those articles about women doing it and thought I’d give it a shot.
Evangelical churches have utterly failed young men for decades. My story is like many others:
Be a regular participant in church & youth group in mid/highschool. Grouped with kids relatively my own age. Activities are mixed gender.
Reach college age.
Zero programs, outreach, or classes for single men 18-35. You’re grouped with old men you have nothing in common with or nothing.
ABSOLUTELY NO FRATERNIZATION WITH WOMEN OF ANY TYPE!! No co-mingling programs, classes, anything, with women.
Your pursuit of a career is demonized. Your pursuit of women is demonized. You’re not allowed to talk to church women because then you’re some kind of predator.
If you do talk to church women you quickly find they are either raging whores or completely inexperienced with dating.
Both types of women are a side chick to a married man already. Either emotionally, physically, or both.
Same impossible standards of secular women apply to evangelicals except they add religion to the mix.
Realize it’s easier just to try to meet girls in school, work, or the bar.
Church practically turns into a nunnery.
The only men that pass through are married & they pick up a side chick or two.
That sounds like a you problem. Go to another church. Although I don't disagree with many of those problems
They're good at sending everyone's money to Israel.
Exactly why I despise evangelicals, they only care about bankrupting our Treasury for Israel and demanding men "man up" and marry the terrible women of today.
One of the worst groups in the right's current coalition.
The support for Israel is fading among the younger ones. That's going to lead to a lot of changes. Nearly all of the shittiest elements of the right are Zionists and get propped up because of that. If they are no longer useful to Zionists, they will likely be left to to rot or potentially reform and improve.
They think the end times are right around the corner. They think, “fuck it, let’s slit America’s throat open and drink the blood.”
It’s the national equivalent of quitting your job, taking out credit card debt, and waiting for Jesus to show up 5 Sundays from now.
Damn, that was right on the money.
The fact is that many evangelical "Christians" commit a lot of heresies. One of the big ones is turning women into one of their gods, as they no longer are willing to accept women are people who sin, but rather perfect beings who must be accepted as marriage partners by men regardless of how they behave.
Creating an actual environment conducive to marriage would entail returning to proper Christian values such as teaching that sex should be confined to marriages that form an indissolubility bond between a man and a woman.
I guess you could say they put a little too much stock into certain aspects of Mary Magdalene's story.
This perfectly describes why I get pissy, you're completely right, they put women on a pedestal the same way male feminists do. They never treat women as individuals with their own agency so therefore the default tactic is always to blame men. Then people even on this site wonder why men get so fed up and just go "Lol fuck off" to all of it.
You see boomers doing it to, acting like it's purely the fault of men and all men need to do is just grow a spine and go outside. This is what provokes the fuck off response in a lot of guys. It's so damn obvious many older men have no idea how bad young modern women are. I always defer to the gymbros because it's easier to dismiss guys who don't get laid often, if even they're going fuck off and refusing contact with women to a degree you know things are really bad and I'm absolutely sure that gymbros will have more than a few horror stories to tell about women who have tried to date them.
Evangelicals are a bunch of garbage anyway. They've done nothing to help the nation, basically leaving restoring our nation to the much smaller group of born-again Christians that have very few resources relative to the Evangelicals, while they get to sit on their butts and enjoy a safe environment where everybody feels good.
I thought the evangelical movement includes born-agains?
The more apt description would be main line evangelicals who do anything (including compromising on Christianity and it's values) to get people in the doors (which almost never works long-term), and fundamentalists who want to get people to turn to Christ and eternal salvation and are not willing to sacrifice the fundamentals of Christianity to do so.
Marriage is risky but what is the other option?
Realistically, only extinction. Because marriage is just a fancy pants word for the union of parents, and will always exist as long as we need two to make baby.
Because the inverse of his point is also true. MGTOWs and all the other anti-marriage crusaders don't offer anything either. They just tell you "don't do it" and then vaguely handwave either a utopia where women are properly controlled (lol) or something something artificial wombs.
All the criticisms are valid, usually, but they don't offer a solution to go forward with anymore than the Evangelicals do.
There is no easy solution to this current mess.
You cannot pretend decades of feminism never happened and you cannot pretend that marriage in America is a net positive for men.
Evangelicals are trying to shame men into doing what they want while people like me who are MGTOW are just telling you the current state of the sexual marketplace.
The choice is for individual men to make.
Men have to choose between wading through the cesspool that is modern women and accruing a huge potential risk to their finances and mental health for the sake of furthering the their bloodline or they can see what a raw deal marriage is currently in western society and how terrible modern women are and say just fuck it and stay single.
There is no magical solution I can offer you.
Evangelicals are demanding men self sacrifice while people like me say that you are free to make your own choice when it comes to deciding if marriage is worth it for YOU personally.
I am not a collectivist. I will not self sacrifice myself for a civilization that hates me.
I personally think marriage is not worth it and thus I made my own choice.
Evangelical clowns would try to shame me and browbeat me into marrying.
This is what I find repulsive.
I personally think that individual men should not self sacrifice for a society that hates them.
To add to this, leftists are also demanding that men self sacrifice. Main difference is what areas they tend to target for sacrifice, but it still adds up to the same effect: Use up most of the male population so that those at the top can reap the benefits, while claiming that it's all for the "good of society".
And both do everything they can to discourage and shame a man's passion for life and to break his spirit.
Not that this is an especially new insight around here. That similar and familiar tone is precisely what first launched Gamersgate, MGTOW, and similar developments in the first place, where men (and some women) started to take notice to all of the manipulative bullshit going on at the top.
And MGTOW type clowns would try and shame you for daring to try and improve society somewhat, by having a family and attempting to give this world a next generation, and then browbeat you into never trying at all.
This wasn't an attack saying they are wrong in all their beliefs and criticisms of society. I've been an anti-feminist since before most people here were born. Only that they are much the same as the Evangelicals in this regard, only in the other direction.
The thing the MGTOWs are right about is that marriage isn't really a marriage in the sense that the woman submits to the husband whose authority is accepted, because any time the woman wants she can appeal to the State, and the State will either drag the man out in chains or put a bullet in his head. And everyone knows this.
I remember an old episode of the original CSI where they're investigating some S&M group, and the main CSI guy says something like "The fact of the matter is the submissive ultimately has all the power, because when he says the safe word everything stops." Which is how all modern marriages (including the ones where the wife claims to be submissive to the husband) function in practice. And few men upon discovering that's how things work want to sign up to such an arrangement.
The Evangelicals have internalized too much leftism to offer a solution to this problem, and no one else in the mainstream even sees it as a problem.
They aren't wrong about almost anything they say, almost at all. I simply disagree with what they decide to do with that knowledge, and how they con unsuspecting men into their "movement" of just giving up.
Because for most of them its not forging their own path (aka "going your own way") and bettering themselves/their life regardless of women, its just giving up and then justifying it.
It's not so much that they encourage men to "give up". That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
One small issue I've had with MGTOW is sort of built into the name. It emphasizes men to seek out their own path, which is good, but seemingly does so with a small emphasis on going out and being on their own. Not just from society and its bullshitty manipulations, but from other people in general.
Encouraging men to stand on their own two feet and stand up for themselves is one thing, but a man should not be isolating and withholding himself from good and reliable friends, family, and community either. So long as a man doesn't allow them to completely rule over him either (IE, evangelicals, leftists, collectivists).
Not that I'm saying that MGTOW actively encourages self-isolating behavior, but it is a subtle vibe that I've picked up every now and then, based on how a few more dedicated followers of the movement tend to word things. I could be totally mistaken though. It's been a while since I've checked out those communities.
The problem is the overlap of these two is considerable, to almost eclipse the part that doesn't. Because its really easy for someone to just be completely unable to get a girl, and then cover up that fact by ranting about how relationships are actually bad deals so they just don't want one. Which is what I find is the most common draw of MGTOW over other "manosphere" circles.
That's why, as you said, it doesn't really emphasize helping men actually build their own path as much as it does try to drag every man down into their pit of rejections. Lot of "king" posting, no "king" behaviors.
If a guy wants to simply stop trying the rat race and spend all his days lifting and woodworking to his complete contentment, that's absolutely fine. I don't agree with the choice but its his to make and I have no real reason to hate it either.
The problem is trying to recruit lots of men into doing some variation of it, which is an issue once it ceases being an isolated incident and effects society itself. A difference between letting someone know the option exists, and then actively trying to groom them into it.
The same issue there is with kids and homosexuality there. Because the valley between "hey this is also possible" and "you should absolutely join us, here is all the (carefully curated) benefits!" is vast.
You are trying to equate MGTOWS telling men to make their own informed rational choices and the evangelicals shaming men into getting married as the same thing.
I don't care if a guy gets married of his own volition.
The evangelicals seethe if a guy chooses not to get married, I don't care if a man chooses to get married. Key difference here.
No, I'm criticizing the movement telling men to just "drop out lol, it ain't worth it man" as just as short sighted as the one saying "dude just wing it, it'll all work out lol."
MGTOWs seethe just as much at men successfully being married and managing to navigate the shitshow that is modern women, I've dealt with it since the "movement" was founded.
This is the truth. They hate seeing successful married men because it destroys their own narrative.
MGTOW at least offers protection from a system designed to destroy a man's future. It's not a societal solution of course, but it doesn't claim to be for the most part. There are solutions, but they all involve fixing the rotten incentive structure that rewards women for destroying families. That those solutions are politically unfeasible isn't on MGTOW. It's not their fault (or the Evangelicals for the matter) that women would rather destroy society than accept anything less than absolute power in a relationship.
A man has no future if he has no children, only his limited lifespan. In that sense, it only affords him protection for his own hedonism, his personal pleasures in this mortal coil as he dies failing to accomplish the only single function life is designed to fulfill.
They aren't wrong to want to protect yourself. But "lol just fix all of society first, then we ball" isn't a solution. As such, they shouldn't be prescribed as one. Only a stepping stone to fixing yourself before you go back out in the world.
How sad your life must be if you think having a child is the "only single function your life is designed to fulfill".
I suppose the life of Jesus and his disciples (those that had no children) was meaningless?
And what use was Jesus and his disciples teachings if no one was alive in the next generation to receive them? Or are you so special that you are the modern prophet exception whose life is going to inspire other people on a level unprecedented?
Glad we have reached using the Bible to justify ourselves though. I'm sure it said absolutely nothing about having children or taking wives and their importance.
But there were plenty of people alive to receive them then. And there will continue to be plenty of people alive to receive them now and in the future. The birth rate isn't going to drop to zero just because some men decide they want to devote themselves to other purposes in life.
Indeed:
To this day, many men choose celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, and to spread His word, and that is a good thing.
He did say something important about marriage, yes. And He didn't say no one should have children. (specifically He said “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.").
But what Jesus definitely did not say was was that "A man has no future if he has no children, only his limited lifespan" (quoting your words directly) or that 'a man's only single function in life is having children' (paraphrasing your words), which is what I was rightfully ridiculing.
Right, so its someone else's problem to solve, you are too special and important for such things. As I suspected would be your answer to the question I asked.
Well yes, when you change words to suite the argument you want me to be making its pretty easy to set up your own counter. The book also commanded pretty directly and in no uncertain terms many times to "be fruitful and multiply," but I'd wager Old Testament only counts when it doesn't interfere with your desired worldview.
I've said my piece, and considering all you got against it was to open with an insult and then "its someone else's problem, not mine!" I feel pretty strong about it now.
Jesus was & is God.
You are not.
MGTOW offers no solutions other than hedonism. No one is arguing why they are angry and no one is denying the problem.
They just offer no solutions.
Women are controlled just not by anything good. Liberalism is beatable. Its Golden Age is beginning to end. The problem for us is human lives are damn short relative to history. Liberalism can be dying for multiple generations.
I don't see liberalism ending until the global economy crashes, or the apocalypse. I suspect Sargon is correct that there will eventually be a synthesis of liberal and conservative values. "I can do what I want - after fulfilling obligations to my family and nation." Maybe that's just wishful thinking on his part as a classical liberal.
No man can serve two masters.
Either he lives for himself or for something greater than himself.
Since self-serving is a part of human nature our best case is where some people genuinely serve a higher purpose and the rest do so performatively when in public. That way the genuine people aren't being demoralized.
That's the thing, marriage does bring all the benefits that most people think they do, but most American women of dating age are not marriage material.
This is what evangelicals of Gen X or Boomer age don't seem get, that most women have responded to modern cultural cues by going completely batshit crazy. My own religious beliefs are pretty hard core Christian, what is usually called fundamentalist, these days. I never attended mainline protestant churches, so lutheran/baptist/7th day aventist etc. are all those other people to me. shrug
Full Societal Collapse
When shit gets real, all the fake BS ends and natural selection takes over.
It's going to suck.
People are going to die.
Allahu Akbar
Perhaps it's time to bring arranged marriages into our culture, and start training children from their tweens how to be good husbands and wives. It doesn't happen, everybody is supposed to just naturally know how to be in a good relationship, and just like most things, relationships can use training and experience.
It never should have stopped. Allowing women to choose when and whom to marry was one of the greatest failures of our civilization.
That’s what marriage was before dating culture in the 1920s with the invention of the automobile.
Have I ranted yet about how much I hate right wingers these days? This kind of shaming language is very common with them. Especially the boomers and generation x types who don't fucking get how lucky they were to even be able to find their wives in school or in university. It really isn't just the evangelicals.
This is why I always do have a degree of respect for Count Dankula and Sargon of Akkad, because they fucking get it. Sargon especially gets it even though he's a typical generation x guy that's living in his family life bubble because he's seen what younger men are going through when it comes to feminists and women who buy into their bullshit.
Again, it's not just evangelicals, they're certainly the worse and low hanging fruit, but right wing men especially come across to me like borderline male feminists except they often tend to be married and are lecturing men from a position of extreme safety.
Evangelicals are not right wing. They all love the blacking of America. Not one evangelical church calls for the removal of brown people. Stop blaming the right you fucking communist.
#NotRealRightWingers
Evangelicals really aren't right wing because it's not a political movement. There are plenty of Evangelicals who lefties like you.
It's not specifically the right-wing as a political ideology and movement so much as specific cultural groups that have tended to nest and reside there for about a century or more that are the problem. Which doesn't necessarily make up or represent the right wing as a whole at all.
It's a little too easy to jump to ranting about the whole wing instead of those individual subsections. I used to do that a lot, and sometimes have to correct myself when I accidentally slip into it.
Evangelicals are certainly the most obvious and easiest to name though, since they're so consistently loud and unison in their judgemental sentiments and ideology. And their eagerness to wield and utilize power to shove that ideology down other peoples' throats.
Pretty much the Ori from Stargate (though some mistake the Ori as being a play on Christianity as a whole, which is an overly simplistic take I totally disagree with. Regardless of what the show's writers intentions were.).
You’ve ranted quite a bit about them actually.
This must be the Aaron Renn take people were referring to in the thread I posted calling out the retard he's talking about.
Sorry Christcucks but when your ideal of manhood literally sacrificed himself for the sins of the world, it's basically impossible to not be a cuck ... (hence... Christcuck...) "Turn the other cheek" and "the meek shall inherit the Earth" is like the mission statement of the Republican Generals.....
Nietzsche was right about Christians.