Evangelical clowns would try to shame me and browbeat me into marrying.
And MGTOW type clowns would try and shame you for daring to try and improve society somewhat, by having a family and attempting to give this world a next generation, and then browbeat you into never trying at all.
This wasn't an attack saying they are wrong in all their beliefs and criticisms of society. I've been an anti-feminist since before most people here were born. Only that they are much the same as the Evangelicals in this regard, only in the other direction.
The thing the MGTOWs are right about is that marriage isn't really a marriage in the sense that the woman submits to the husband whose authority is accepted, because any time the woman wants she can appeal to the State, and the State will either drag the man out in chains or put a bullet in his head. And everyone knows this.
I remember an old episode of the original CSI where they're investigating some S&M group, and the main CSI guy says something like "The fact of the matter is the submissive ultimately has all the power, because when he says the safe word everything stops." Which is how all modern marriages (including the ones where the wife claims to be submissive to the husband) function in practice. And few men upon discovering that's how things work want to sign up to such an arrangement.
The Evangelicals have internalized too much leftism to offer a solution to this problem, and no one else in the mainstream even sees it as a problem.
They aren't wrong about almost anything they say, almost at all. I simply disagree with what they decide to do with that knowledge, and how they con unsuspecting men into their "movement" of just giving up.
Because for most of them its not forging their own path (aka "going your own way") and bettering themselves/their life regardless of women, its just giving up and then justifying it.
It's not so much that they encourage men to "give up". That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
One small issue I've had with MGTOW is sort of built into the name. It emphasizes men to seek out their own path, which is good, but seemingly does so with a small emphasis on going out and being on their own. Not just from society and its bullshitty manipulations, but from other people in general.
Encouraging men to stand on their own two feet and stand up for themselves is one thing, but a man should not be isolating and withholding himself from good and reliable friends, family, and community either. So long as a man doesn't allow them to completely rule over him either (IE, evangelicals, leftists, collectivists).
Not that I'm saying that MGTOW actively encourages self-isolating behavior, but it is a subtle vibe that I've picked up every now and then, based on how a few more dedicated followers of the movement tend to word things. I could be totally mistaken though. It's been a while since I've checked out those communities.
That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
The problem is the overlap of these two is considerable, to almost eclipse the part that doesn't. Because its really easy for someone to just be completely unable to get a girl, and then cover up that fact by ranting about how relationships are actually bad deals so they just don't want one. Which is what I find is the most common draw of MGTOW over other "manosphere" circles.
That's why, as you said, it doesn't really emphasize helping men actually build their own path as much as it does try to drag every man down into their pit of rejections. Lot of "king" posting, no "king" behaviors.
If a guy wants to simply stop trying the rat race and spend all his days lifting and woodworking to his complete contentment, that's absolutely fine. I don't agree with the choice but its his to make and I have no real reason to hate it either.
The problem is trying to recruit lots of men into doing some variation of it, which is an issue once it ceases being an isolated incident and effects society itself. A difference between letting someone know the option exists, and then actively trying to groom them into it.
The same issue there is with kids and homosexuality there. Because the valley between "hey this is also possible" and "you should absolutely join us, here is all the (carefully curated) benefits!" is vast.
You are trying to equate MGTOWS telling men to make their own informed rational choices and the evangelicals shaming men into getting married as the same thing.
I don't care if a guy gets married of his own volition.
The evangelicals seethe if a guy chooses not to get married, I don't care if a man chooses to get married.
Key difference here.
No, I'm criticizing the movement telling men to just "drop out lol, it ain't worth it man" as just as short sighted as the one saying "dude just wing it, it'll all work out lol."
MGTOWs seethe just as much at men successfully being married and managing to navigate the shitshow that is modern women, I've dealt with it since the "movement" was founded.
And MGTOW type clowns would try and shame you for daring to try and improve society somewhat, by having a family and attempting to give this world a next generation, and then browbeat you into never trying at all.
This wasn't an attack saying they are wrong in all their beliefs and criticisms of society. I've been an anti-feminist since before most people here were born. Only that they are much the same as the Evangelicals in this regard, only in the other direction.
The thing the MGTOWs are right about is that marriage isn't really a marriage in the sense that the woman submits to the husband whose authority is accepted, because any time the woman wants she can appeal to the State, and the State will either drag the man out in chains or put a bullet in his head. And everyone knows this.
I remember an old episode of the original CSI where they're investigating some S&M group, and the main CSI guy says something like "The fact of the matter is the submissive ultimately has all the power, because when he says the safe word everything stops." Which is how all modern marriages (including the ones where the wife claims to be submissive to the husband) function in practice. And few men upon discovering that's how things work want to sign up to such an arrangement.
The Evangelicals have internalized too much leftism to offer a solution to this problem, and no one else in the mainstream even sees it as a problem.
They aren't wrong about almost anything they say, almost at all. I simply disagree with what they decide to do with that knowledge, and how they con unsuspecting men into their "movement" of just giving up.
Because for most of them its not forging their own path (aka "going your own way") and bettering themselves/their life regardless of women, its just giving up and then justifying it.
It's not so much that they encourage men to "give up". That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
One small issue I've had with MGTOW is sort of built into the name. It emphasizes men to seek out their own path, which is good, but seemingly does so with a small emphasis on going out and being on their own. Not just from society and its bullshitty manipulations, but from other people in general.
Encouraging men to stand on their own two feet and stand up for themselves is one thing, but a man should not be isolating and withholding himself from good and reliable friends, family, and community either. So long as a man doesn't allow them to completely rule over him either (IE, evangelicals, leftists, collectivists).
Not that I'm saying that MGTOW actively encourages self-isolating behavior, but it is a subtle vibe that I've picked up every now and then, based on how a few more dedicated followers of the movement tend to word things. I could be totally mistaken though. It's been a while since I've checked out those communities.
The problem is the overlap of these two is considerable, to almost eclipse the part that doesn't. Because its really easy for someone to just be completely unable to get a girl, and then cover up that fact by ranting about how relationships are actually bad deals so they just don't want one. Which is what I find is the most common draw of MGTOW over other "manosphere" circles.
That's why, as you said, it doesn't really emphasize helping men actually build their own path as much as it does try to drag every man down into their pit of rejections. Lot of "king" posting, no "king" behaviors.
If a guy wants to simply stop trying the rat race and spend all his days lifting and woodworking to his complete contentment, that's absolutely fine. I don't agree with the choice but its his to make and I have no real reason to hate it either.
The problem is trying to recruit lots of men into doing some variation of it, which is an issue once it ceases being an isolated incident and effects society itself. A difference between letting someone know the option exists, and then actively trying to groom them into it.
The same issue there is with kids and homosexuality there. Because the valley between "hey this is also possible" and "you should absolutely join us, here is all the (carefully curated) benefits!" is vast.
You are trying to equate MGTOWS telling men to make their own informed rational choices and the evangelicals shaming men into getting married as the same thing.
I don't care if a guy gets married of his own volition.
The evangelicals seethe if a guy chooses not to get married, I don't care if a man chooses to get married. Key difference here.
No, I'm criticizing the movement telling men to just "drop out lol, it ain't worth it man" as just as short sighted as the one saying "dude just wing it, it'll all work out lol."
MGTOWs seethe just as much at men successfully being married and managing to navigate the shitshow that is modern women, I've dealt with it since the "movement" was founded.
This is the truth. They hate seeing successful married men because it destroys their own narrative.