They aren't wrong about almost anything they say, almost at all. I simply disagree with what they decide to do with that knowledge, and how they con unsuspecting men into their "movement" of just giving up.
Because for most of them its not forging their own path (aka "going your own way") and bettering themselves/their life regardless of women, its just giving up and then justifying it.
It's not so much that they encourage men to "give up". That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
One small issue I've had with MGTOW is sort of built into the name. It emphasizes men to seek out their own path, which is good, but seemingly does so with a small emphasis on going out and being on their own. Not just from society and its bullshitty manipulations, but from other people in general.
Encouraging men to stand on their own two feet and stand up for themselves is one thing, but a man should not be isolating and withholding himself from good and reliable friends, family, and community either. So long as a man doesn't allow them to completely rule over him either (IE, evangelicals, leftists, collectivists).
Not that I'm saying that MGTOW actively encourages self-isolating behavior, but it is a subtle vibe that I've picked up every now and then, based on how a few more dedicated followers of the movement tend to word things. I could be totally mistaken though. It's been a while since I've checked out those communities.
That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
The problem is the overlap of these two is considerable, to almost eclipse the part that doesn't. Because its really easy for someone to just be completely unable to get a girl, and then cover up that fact by ranting about how relationships are actually bad deals so they just don't want one. Which is what I find is the most common draw of MGTOW over other "manosphere" circles.
That's why, as you said, it doesn't really emphasize helping men actually build their own path as much as it does try to drag every man down into their pit of rejections. Lot of "king" posting, no "king" behaviors.
If a guy wants to simply stop trying the rat race and spend all his days lifting and woodworking to his complete contentment, that's absolutely fine. I don't agree with the choice but its his to make and I have no real reason to hate it either.
The problem is trying to recruit lots of men into doing some variation of it, which is an issue once it ceases being an isolated incident and effects society itself. A difference between letting someone know the option exists, and then actively trying to groom them into it.
The same issue there is with kids and homosexuality there. Because the valley between "hey this is also possible" and "you should absolutely join us, here is all the (carefully curated) benefits!" is vast.
Oh I generally agree. Which is why I'd probably advocate for a branch off movement that focuses instead on trying to help each other out with useful advice and general support in seeking out workable and useful solutions. Without needlessly applying extra pressure on guys to seek out romantic endeavors.
It's probably something that should've been started ages ago, but to be fair, the "culture war" has distracted, divided, and generally screwed with a lot of people, putting many on the defense as it were. And it's always a little tricky trying to form any kind of cohesive and cooperative movement with people who hold any range of different opinions, values, and backgrounds.
Without needlessly applying extra pressure on guys to seek out romantic endeavors.
The problem is, without this pressure men can easily just "win" in society. All the things that can satisfy all but the most power hungry of men are cheaply acquired and quick at that. Its like eating fast food or sweets, fulfilling in the moment but eventually the emptiness of it leaves you destroyed.
We don't have wars anymore. We don't "struggle." And yet these are things men are formed to crave instinctually, and become miserable without. Women and the pursuit of them really are the only challenge left for most men. And when even that becomes easy, you get the elite and the rich craving absurdly disgusting taboos for no reason but the challenge of getting and hiding it.
Men shouldn't base their entire life and value on hoes, women are awful and pretty worthless. But they also should keep their mind sharp by keeping on the train with them, if only to stave off the existential madness.
They aren't wrong about almost anything they say, almost at all. I simply disagree with what they decide to do with that knowledge, and how they con unsuspecting men into their "movement" of just giving up.
Because for most of them its not forging their own path (aka "going your own way") and bettering themselves/their life regardless of women, its just giving up and then justifying it.
It's not so much that they encourage men to "give up". That's more in the realm of inceldom circles to be honest.
One small issue I've had with MGTOW is sort of built into the name. It emphasizes men to seek out their own path, which is good, but seemingly does so with a small emphasis on going out and being on their own. Not just from society and its bullshitty manipulations, but from other people in general.
Encouraging men to stand on their own two feet and stand up for themselves is one thing, but a man should not be isolating and withholding himself from good and reliable friends, family, and community either. So long as a man doesn't allow them to completely rule over him either (IE, evangelicals, leftists, collectivists).
Not that I'm saying that MGTOW actively encourages self-isolating behavior, but it is a subtle vibe that I've picked up every now and then, based on how a few more dedicated followers of the movement tend to word things. I could be totally mistaken though. It's been a while since I've checked out those communities.
The problem is the overlap of these two is considerable, to almost eclipse the part that doesn't. Because its really easy for someone to just be completely unable to get a girl, and then cover up that fact by ranting about how relationships are actually bad deals so they just don't want one. Which is what I find is the most common draw of MGTOW over other "manosphere" circles.
That's why, as you said, it doesn't really emphasize helping men actually build their own path as much as it does try to drag every man down into their pit of rejections. Lot of "king" posting, no "king" behaviors.
If a guy wants to simply stop trying the rat race and spend all his days lifting and woodworking to his complete contentment, that's absolutely fine. I don't agree with the choice but its his to make and I have no real reason to hate it either.
The problem is trying to recruit lots of men into doing some variation of it, which is an issue once it ceases being an isolated incident and effects society itself. A difference between letting someone know the option exists, and then actively trying to groom them into it.
The same issue there is with kids and homosexuality there. Because the valley between "hey this is also possible" and "you should absolutely join us, here is all the (carefully curated) benefits!" is vast.
Oh I generally agree. Which is why I'd probably advocate for a branch off movement that focuses instead on trying to help each other out with useful advice and general support in seeking out workable and useful solutions. Without needlessly applying extra pressure on guys to seek out romantic endeavors.
It's probably something that should've been started ages ago, but to be fair, the "culture war" has distracted, divided, and generally screwed with a lot of people, putting many on the defense as it were. And it's always a little tricky trying to form any kind of cohesive and cooperative movement with people who hold any range of different opinions, values, and backgrounds.
The problem is, without this pressure men can easily just "win" in society. All the things that can satisfy all but the most power hungry of men are cheaply acquired and quick at that. Its like eating fast food or sweets, fulfilling in the moment but eventually the emptiness of it leaves you destroyed.
We don't have wars anymore. We don't "struggle." And yet these are things men are formed to crave instinctually, and become miserable without. Women and the pursuit of them really are the only challenge left for most men. And when even that becomes easy, you get the elite and the rich craving absurdly disgusting taboos for no reason but the challenge of getting and hiding it.
Men shouldn't base their entire life and value on hoes, women are awful and pretty worthless. But they also should keep their mind sharp by keeping on the train with them, if only to stave off the existential madness.