I have been seeing alot of grumbling about Christians and complaining that Christian moral activism is returning.
Name a single part of social justice/woke culture that did not result from what Christians were warning yall about.
I guess some lessons will never be learned though. Society has just gone too far down the path of liberalism 🤷♂️
Too many Christian zionists. Too many Christians simping for israel and jews. Israel wouldn't have gotten so powerful if Christians hadn't been helping them along the way.
Also some Christians are unable to see the importance of race and think that as long as someone converts then they are fine.
The Churches in Japan are very pro refugee. https://files.catbox.moe/h9fpo7.jpg.
There was a Orthodox Christian guy in Japan called Chiune Sugihara who went against orders in ww2 in order to give Visas to bring thousands of jewish refugees to Japan even though he had been told numerous times by his bosses not to.
Christianity ignores race completely and converting everyone is what Christianity wants to achieve. If you put your religion above your own family/people/race/culture you'll inevitably end up where we are today.
And yet 'where we are today' did not happen in the 2000 years of Christianity, but only when Christianity fell.
What is your definition of 'when Christianity fell'? All this began during a time when the US was probably the most religious country on Earth.
And we can also talk about how beneficial Christianity was to the people during those 2000 years. Y'know with all the religious wars, the deeply corrupt clergy and all the other nice things that happened. So let's not pretend that Christianity stopped any bad shit from happening.
Eh... not quite. I have serious doubts about US religiosity. It may be religious compared to Europe, but not compared to the world. Furthermore, all this nonsense originated in the least Christian areas.
Just how many religious wars are you thinking of in these 2000 years to talk about 'all the religious wars'?
We're talking about 2000 years and you suggest that what can be said of some clergy in several decades in the 16th century was somehow the universal experience.
Well no, I wasn't arguing that Christianity led to a heaven on earth where nothing bad ever happened. Some of the wiser aspects of Christianity are not even the theological aspects, but the practical ones: a heaven on earth is impossible and attempts to create one lead to tragedy (see the French and Bolshevik revolutions), humans should not play god (see transgenderism), humans are by their nature fallen and imperfect (which is why you don't give absolute power to an individual).
I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about more than half a century ago.
And yet the most Christian areas didn't manage to defend themselves against it. If your religion doesn't protect you from subversion what good is that religion?
The violent and forcible conversion of Europe to Christianity. The division of Europe into two sects of Christianity which kicked of centuries of religious strife. So every religious war and conflict that was fought during that time.
I'm not talking about just a few decades in the 16th century. Corrupt clergy is the rule. Not the exception. Power attracts corrupt individuals and Christianity fails at rooting out those individuals just like any other religion. But organized monotheistic religions with world dominating ambitions are especially bad at it.
You were arguing that Christianity stopped the subversion that we're seeing today. Which it didn't.
There was no wokeness half a century ago though. Of course, the seeds were there, otherwise we wouldn't have gotten here.
That is a fair critique. But not being able to resist some bad thing is not quite as bad as creating and spreading it.
What are you talking about, there is no such thing.
That was for a relatively short time, started perhaps in 1546 and ended in 1648. Hardly the 2000 years of war that you were suggesting.
Again a fair critique. But remember: most clergy had very little power.
It did. There was no such thing when Christianity was dominant. There were some other bad things, which you greatly exaggerated, and obviously some other bad things that you didn't mention. But a central lesson of Christianity, which I think is very valuable for everyone incl. atheists like myself, is that it is impossible to create a heaven on earth and every attempt at such a thing will be a disaster.
Of course there was wokeness. Just not current day wokeness. And yes, the seeds are kinda important because wokeness isn't the disease. It's of one its symptoms.
Christianity didn't exactly create it but it sure helped splendidly in actively spreading it. It just let it happen and then in modern days turned to actively supporting it.
Of course not. Openly holding onto your pagan beliefs was something the Church tolerated by either forcing you to convert or simply killing you. But they were just saving them as otherwise they would've burned in hell for all eternity. Like Charlemagne did.
Islam also didn't spread through violence. That's just a islamophobic conspiracy theory.
The religious strife between Catholics and Protestants had been going strong till the 20th century. It didn't break out into religious wars for the entire time but it seriously divided Europe. Look at Ireland.
Christianity never managed to unite Europe or even just stop European Christian nations from waging war on eachother while the Caliphat was already getting comfy on European soil.
Most federal employees have very little power and yet they're the ones who are upholding the oppressive system. The Church was the most powerful instution in Europe for a very long time until the Europeans were finally getting tired of its corruption and the nobility used that opportunity to tell the Church to go fuck itself.
Luther wouldn't have been possible if the Church hadn't been a corrupt, greedy, hypocritical and powerhungry institution that oppressed Europe.
Like I already said current day wokeness is just one of the many symptoms of the root problem. You yourself admitted that the seeds appeared during Christian dominance. So Christianity prevented fuck all. Letting it happen is just as bad as making it happen.
And if we look at the last century we can see quite clearly that the Churches were actually instrumental in spreading the seeds of current day wokeness. The Churches are actively involved in homoglobo and refugee trafficking.
But I guess they're not "real Christians" just as Stalin, Lenin, Mao etc weren't "real Communists".
I'll give you the Zionism but Christianity literally calls for ignoring race. Its actually one of the big points of contention with said zionists. Jesus abolished the idea of Jewish supremacy
So basically the church positions are too liberal?
I think the "turn the other cheek" was a cultural mistake.
I also think the ignoring of 1 Timothy 2:12 was a mistake.
This drives up to no end how so many Christians were taught the wrong version of this. If you were in a captive situation, you mock your captor by showing the ineffectiveness of his slap. Not that you let yourself become captive of an aggressor in the first place.
There's a long rant in my brain somewhere about this, but alot of current Christian teaching basically boils down to 'We really, really, really need to keep men from being violent'.
When you start taking Christian teaching in context, you begin to see a trend where violence is very permissible in the right circumstances. Or, put another way, murder is bad. Killing, however, is very much on the table...
Remember, when people ask "what would Jesus do?" Flipping over some tables, making a whip, and beating the shit out of people breaking God's laws is on the table.
I have had this argument several time irl. Enabling your own oppression and persecution isnt the same as persevering under it
"We are all equally made in God's image" would be another
Fun fact: the Lutheran confession includes the declaration that "imager" status was granted to Adam and lost due to original sin. It's regained when you accept Christ. Non-belivers don't carry the image of God.
If churches enforced their own doctrines, we'd have a lot fewer problems, which was OPs point.
Definitely. My point is that verses like the above, or the likes of Leviticus 19:33-34, be it by intended meaning or interpretational error, can be frankly disastrous to Christian society.
"Foreigner" in that verse is better translated "traveler" and does not mean immigrant. The traveler described eventually leaves.
Being treated as a native would also mean being subject to civic and religious law. The foreigner who blasphemes can look forward to being stoned to death, just as a native son.
Your methodology, you want to know WHY the Christians lost their foothold in the west culturally and allowed the left to takeover? Because you got too preachy with a 'we're doing this for your own good' attitude.
That just invites rebellion, especially from the younger generations and would you look at that, the left ALWAYS puts themselves as the 'rebels' and underdogs.
This recent one in regards to fanservice is making Christians seem the otherside of the coin to the leftist moralisers, so you're kneecapping yourselves than learning from previous mistakes.
Damn, doesn't that sound familiar.
And the left are loosing across the board thanks to that attitude.
As I said, it invites rebellion, weirdly more than just going 'do that shit and I'll shoot you'.
Actually, I think Christians lost power when they started to allow deviance, under the pretext that you could continue to disapprove of matters while not making it illegal.
It turns out, no, you cannot. There seems an inevitable force that pushes you towards that old British joke that whatever is not illegal becomes mandatory.
You know there's only two options with how a religion evolves over time as if you don't adapt then you end up like the Greek/Roman pantheon:
(Most popular) claim the otherside is heretical and try to kill them
Have a reformation where you have key figures lead to a change based on the inadequacies of current structure. This is what led to the Catholicism/Protestant split in Christianity
What Christianity is suffering from is the fact that it's very institutions are corrupt and rather than focus on cleaning up internally whether that's the Vatican or church of England etc, it tries to claim moral authority in culture against targets that are fictional.
They began losing when they tried to appeal to 'a modern audience' than promoting the virtues they have maintained for centuries.
Here we agree.
Yet if you'd listened you'd be far better off
My Brother in Christ, this is the exact wrong way to go about asking such a question as you truly wish.
We are all flawed, perpetually seeking to reforge & anneal ourselves as we become better Men in seeking apoptheosis. Yet there were and are Christians, taking literal arrogant "holier than thou" attitudes that you just fell into with this post. It happens to often with recent converts, and especially with Evangelical protestants.
I will attempt to provide you with the Traditionalist Christian answer:
Luke 6:41-42 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? / How can you say, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while you yourself fail to see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
James 4:11-12 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. And if you judge the law, you are not a practitioner of the law, but a judge of it. / There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and destroy. But who are you to openly judge your neighbor?
Romans 14:10-13 Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. / It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” / So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. ...
"The ultimate gift the Lord gave us was free will, the Freedom to Choose is the Freedom to make the Wrong Choice". Focus on yourself and the family you were granted dominion over as the responsible head of the household of, let God judge in the final days.
With the rise of the European Protestant movement the turn of the century American Evangelism & the falling to swindlers such as William E. Blackstone, The Bush Family, the Dennis Pragers, Ben Carsons, etc. Modern American Conservative Christian Leaders are Protestant & Pro-Zion Talmudic Judaism.
This was one of the greatest subversions of Christianity, on par with the Spanish Judaic-"Conversos" that infiltrated the Catholic Church via the Jesuits and are responsible for the mistake of the Second Vatican Council & destruction of the Tridentine Mass & Roman Catholic Rite. There exist other poisonous roots, such as the rewriting of modern Bibles via comprimised publishers to remove "Pharisees" for Priest and "Jews" for "the People". As well as certain passages.
One of the reasons John F. Kennedy was maligned & eventually killed was the fact he followed in his Father's footsteps as was staunchly on guard vs Rabbinic policy & was the first Traditionalist Catholic President. He was also the last, and Biden doesn't count as we all know him being a meatpuppet.
Orthodoxy and Traditional Roman Catholicism, the twin trees of the Church both were staunchly on guard versus Judaism till modern times. Please consult:
St. John Chrysostom's "Adversus Judaeos" & St. Thomas Acquinas' "On the Jews"
For Christ's sake, look at how many American Christian advertisements siphon money toward Israel & Africa, as well as missionary work. Instead of helping build up their local communities and policy.
Modern Christianity has been subverted by chasing the modern audience. One only needs to look at the prevalance of Pride flags, BLM flags, the fall of the Episcopalian Church, homosexual priests & female deacons further pushing Feminism & Destruction of the Nuclear Family. Too many modern Christians pursue temporal pleasures and forget what balance, moderation is. On the flipside, we have our glorious leaders channeling zealotry & passion for restoration into self-conflagaration in the public sphere, alienating those most needing the core Christian message. Yet subversion is used for very passages against those who understand the spirit of the message but are plagued by doubt:
Mark 12:31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
This was supposed to BE YOUR TRIBE. Your neighbor, your community in those times were those tribes, your blood. You are not beholden to sacrifice your family & tribe for the hostile, foreign stranger. The Good Samaritan is the answer, momentary respite and succor -- not in perpetuity. Not a full welfare package as you are replaced.
I could go further, but these three will have to do. It is not easy being a Christian and many will be aligned against the principles. Furthermore you have to balance love of the divine with your responsibilities of the physical. Finally, those who worship in the Synagogue of Satan, directly or indirectly will always attempt to use words, actions, and lawfare to mislead, defame, and subvert as they can. Ultimately - be the example you wish to see, and that shining light will draw others to emulate you. Too often many attempt to use that shining light to burn those that need saving.
Which Christians? You are talking about Protestantism, while Catholicism and Orthodoxy have their own sins.
Also, the Evangelicals that are being referenced... Well, modern evangelicalism (as per Why Men Hate Going to Church) was founded by "former" feminists. Hence the barely concealed hate on men.
Can't they engage in moral activism without pushing feminist talking points? Can't they find influencers that didn't just "find God" when they needed a beta cuck to pay for their years on the CC? That's a scam the manosphere has been calling out for over a decade. It would be easier to assume good faith if they weren't doing that shit. Their complaints about attractive female characters in games might even be somewhat understandable (at least considering their worldview) if they weren't blatantly ignoring the bigger fish we have to fry.
when there's so many other way bigger problems in society , Christians bitching about hot female characters in games just makes them look like weak petty assholes who only want to bully the underdog because going against the other bigger problems would be too hard for them.
This is the one that grinds my gears the most. There isn't one notable female Christian influencer who wasn't a whore just a few years ago.
The problem wasn't usually with the idea of what they were preaching, it was the nonsensical method they went about doing so. Satanists and other degenerates were everywhere, but accusing literally everything you don't like of being so just makes nobody take your seriously.
The Right is filled with "right about it, but failing to convince anyone" like that, which is why its always losing. Just look at most people here who will screaming about Jews or women or niggers and be completely right but are so unlikable in doing so that you still don't want to deal with them.
The Christian moral activism specifically is stupid because its being propagated by people who are so dirty and inundated with sin they have no room to even be talking about other people. The tatted up whore that keeps getting spammed around here is a great example of someone whose own house isn't in order enough to lecture anyone yet.
You can still reject bad actors with retarded takes, without rejecting the point they are making.
I will give you two things they are wrong about: turning the other cheek, and treating forgiveness as a virtue.
It's more that forgiveness is being doled out without contrition as a prerequisite.
^ guy who has never read the bible and just believes what jewish people told him about it
Letting hordes of muslims into their countries.
I thought: that sounds like a European. And then I saw the username.
So easy I'll name two. Valuing turning the other cheek over defending themselves effectively. And pretending all men (or women) were created equal.
Christianity has had plenty of benefits, but the organized church has obviously fumbled the ball terribly to the point where too many modern Christians are even praising their kids being mutilated and abused in front of them.
It is apparently news to Americans that there is no book of the Bible called 'the Declaration of Independence'.
Hold up, are you trying to say the literal doctrinal interpretation of created in god's image wasn't already a thing before the declaration of independence paraphrased it?
The ideas that 'all men are created equal' and that all are created in God's image do not sound like the same idea to me, but I'm open to correction.
And the downvote is not mine.
Oh don't worry about the down vote, I figured OP has just tagged everyone who actually tried to call him on his bluff.
One idea is not exactly a foregone conclusion of the other, but it is one of the conclusions that you can reach. One of the arguments goes: If all men are made in God's image, and God is infinitely more important than any worldly matter, then all men are essentially equal in the face of the glory of God.
"All men are created equal" is a sentiment that had been simmering up and down in theologians for centuries before America was even discovered. Pope Gregory I (p533, at the bottom) put it in one of his moral treatises. John Ball (wiki IK, but it'll do as a summary) preached it as he rabble roused a peasant revolt. There are more, even back then theology was as trend chasing and Zeitgeisty as politics, so it had ebbs and flows of popularity, but notably the idea was never widely persecuted against enough to ever disappear.
It's a simplification that I think was aimed upward and often used cynically or sincerely to imply that "these men are not fit to lead you, God is" without explicitly crossing into treason. But had the unintended effect of entrenching people against the very idea that some people are more beneficial/detrimental to your community than others when looking at their peers or downwards.
Interesting. I've seen a similar argument that humans are worms are more similar than humans and god, because both are creations. But it still requires an argument from the universally accepted doctrine, that is, I would not say that it is obvious or implied.
Very interesting. I don't think this actually raises it to the level of Christian doctrine, or widely accepted, but this is honestly much more than I expected.
First of all, props for using Wiki the same way I do - with some shame. As I understand it, John Ball preached social equality, that no one should be a gentleman as there was none in the garden of Eden. Not even the founders said that, they favored an equality of rights for free men.
I think the problem is that 'equality' today is never qualified, as it should. All men are equal in the eyes of god? Sure. All men should have equal rights? OK. All men are of equal worth? Eh... not so much.
Christians are their own enemy.. compassion is being used against christians.
Christian moralfags and Woke moralfags are the same, just playing for a different team. Both aspire to control how you act and what you say, and are never content to just leave you alone.
The argument is, and I'll add as a disclaimer that I am an atheist, that there is always going to be some value set controlling how people act. Then the question is: which value set is more conducive to human flourishing.
given the choice between hyper conservative moralfags and hyper woke moralfags, conservative moralfags are only slightly better.
the best answer is neither.
You don't get that choice and you have already seen that abandoning Christianity results in hyper woke. The slippery slope is there and we're on it right now
Christianity in wokism aren't yin yang. the absence of one does not automatically mean the other.
Christianity lost popularity with the kids in the 2000s largely thanks to the internet at a time when it really was a wild west of ideas. the powers simply recognize that Christianity wasn't going to have a hold on the new generation, so pivoted to rainbow communism. In both cases it's all been bread and circuses to control the masses.
Christians are so right about everything they got destroyed by the left in a single generation and most people all want nothing to do with them. Such power!
Christians were right about what they warned about. You're fallaciously translating being right into having power
Christians promote the following: All men are created equal. All men are brothers. Genetics doesn't exist. The world is flat. Violence doesn't work. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Missions are to help Africans not Whites. Just two more millennia. Send prayers not bullets. Technology is bad. The Earth is 6500 years old. Faggots can get married. Integration, Immigration and Misgenation.
The only thing they got right: "By their fruits you shall know them.", or however that saying goes. My pastor/scoutmaster raised a pyromaniac and a aichmomaniac, while at the same time telling me that I would never become an eagle scout on his watch. Jokes on him. Neither of his sons graduated high school because they couldn't follow basic rules, like not lighting the chemistry labs entire magnesium supply on fire, and not bringing knives to school.
It also applies to how every single christian nation is fighting for gay pride parades in Ukraine and Uganda. Christianity is leftism, because it shares the same foundation: the Tabula Rasa and the NAP.
It is funny how so many Christians do not believe in genetics or evolution, when they are perfectly compatible with the bible.
People will talk all day about the artificial divisions the Elite and Media push on us to keep us fighting and distracted, and then fall for the same game.
Thomas Jefferson was a deist. Christians promote the idea that all men are equal in the eyes of God, which means that you're not inherently better or worse based on who you are, but only by your actions.
Though this must bother a white nationalist.
[The Crusades have entered the conversation.]
Uganda is a Christian nation.
The message is solid but I know I’ve screwed up my delivery of the message.
I have long admitted that the religious right was mocked for underestimating what would happen. Obviously, I stole this phrase from Auron MacIntyre but I agree with the sentiment.
Thinking that authority should be derived from a book that contradicts itself and has undergone many translations and "fixes" over the centuries. It's not applicable to all Christians, but there's some attitude about it being authoritative over everything in life to the point that they try to force it on others. I could spin up a long list about all the cases of "why would God do this?" and argumentum ab Deus, but that book generates a perfect excuse in each instance for a Supreme Being whom should warrant no excuses.
Granted, there are a lot of good morals in the book, however, running your world to the letter of a book written by Men (that's been around far shorter than Man's existence) is dangerous. Now, cultural marxists replace it with their own shifting rules and clergy, having to follow the shifting agenda "precisely". We see it as a cult, but to me it bares some resemblance.
Cry harder Heb.
Some Christian’s think tolerance is a Christian teaching. It isn’t.
Christians have been gay af since they stopped moshing after the 90s. Back in the day you'd go to a show and there would be a whole crew, dozen or more, christian kids tearing it up in the pit. When I suggest to christians now to get that cooking again, they react like faggots. Listen to Zao and stop being fags.
Definitely this is not true of Christianity in general and also being anti- gay is literally for embarrassed gay men.