A buddy of mine sent me an article from a shill media site because he knew I’d roll my eyes and it was the usual tripe attacking fans and praised the last Jedi for “showing” that it’s ok to make bold decisions that fans don’t realize they need. Of course it mentioned that “fanboys were mad because they wanted a heroic Luke”. Of the many reasons I despise that movie, one is definitely this notion that subversion of expectations is brilliant writing.
What’s wrong with wanting to see a hero of a movie be heroic? I hope Rian Johnson never gets a hold of Superman. To be fair TFA should’ve had an opening scene with Luke training new Jedi. Had Rey been one of his students she would’ve been received much better. Plus you could’ve had more Jedi characters to build future stories and could’ve had Luke’s Jedi Academy at Disney world as an attraction.
Anyway, sorry about that rant. I just find that “subversion” as annoying as the Stranger Thigs season 3 where they set up that guy and the girl at the ice cream shop to be a couple (original plan) only to make her gay. Media shills actually called that a bold move. About as bold as race/gender swaps. A show that is an homage to the 80s thought that was a good idea
I refuse to believe that any single human being actually liked that movie of it's own merits. It's always politically motivated.
If they were to make a Rey movie and make her weak and a quitter, then I’ll buy the whole subversion thing. But the fact that they did this to a white male character that a lot of fans liked tells me it was very politically motivated
Only rarely in my life have I seen the concept of subversion used as anything other than a post facto defense for incompetence. Accidental or otherwise.
Take the Starship Troopers movie for instance. The movie they set out to make was supposed to be intentionally bad, and it's only good by accident. What do they say after the fact? Oh they were just trying to subvert the source material. You just don't understand irony bro.
Liberals gaslight every time they breathe.
And the book is attacked by lefties. They also attack stranger in a strange land for some reason. This is why I despise listening to feminists or any Gen z lefty criticizing science fiction from the past. I always saw Starship Troopers the book as a love letter to the military. I enjoyed the movie but I’d love a faithful book adaptation but not in the time we live in
Of course the book is attacked by leftists. It's a blueprint and recruitment poster for a world that functions perfectly well without them in it. In fact, a world that functions perfectly well because they're not in it.
The current military notwithstanding I honestly don’t mind the idea of being a veteran to be able to vote or serving in some capacity to earn your voting rights
That was the old Roman premise too. One in which political enfranchisement must be earned and warranted.
Canadian premise, too. People often conveniently leave out that men in Canada only got the right to vote a handful of years before women. Like, less than 10. One major election cycle.
Prior to that, you had to own land (male or female, no discrimination), or be in the military (male or female, though not many women in the military in WW1).
Silent Hill 2 did subversion well and I guess what's pretty much it. Other media trying to subvert expectations mostly do it for the shock factor and fail to build upon it, it's like a bad punchline
Kotor 2, because Avellone loves subversion. But he's an actual decent writer.
I refuse to even watch clips of TLJ on youtube, and to this day I haven't seen any of it. I won't even pirate it. Rian Johnson can die in a fucking fire so long as I am concerned.
Yea I remember walking out of the movie feeling off because I had always loved Star Wars and I didn’t like it. TFA too. At least with TFA I was excited to see Luke in the next movie
TFA got a bit of a pass from a lot of people because it could have led to some cool stuff. It set-up a lot of interesting ideas that were then quickly squashed, which retroactively made TFA worse.
Yep. I was looking at different theories and there were theories about Knights of Ren and what Luke would do. You are right, could’ve set up some cool stuff
I walked out of Ep7 with a whole gaggle of friends, and my first words of my own review were "well, the music was really on-point."
I might, might pirate it at some point, if I'm really bored and curious. But, like you, so far I've seen none of it, and can't be bothered to care. What a mess they made of the new stuff.
Trust me, don't. You'd have a better use of 2 and a quarter hours slapping your nuts with a fly swatter.
I'll say this much. I think I've enjoyed watching and re-watching the YouTube takedowns of the film as much as I have partially because I saw firsthand how bad it was.
I still haven't seen Rise of Palpatine or anything else Nu-Star Wars since. Fool me once....
You ever read any of the pre Disney books? You may enjoy that?
I have, and I have.
Awesome!
On the one hand, I'm curious as to how you know this. On the other hand... I don't want to know.
Because I've unfortunately seen tlj, and it was such an awful experience that it compares with some of the worst events of my life.
Well, if you go to his OF...
Do yourself a favour and don't bother. It is not worth the time and you'll just feel empty and robbed afterwards. Star Wars is dead.
The advantage of pirating is you can watch it on 3x speed.
It still isn't worth your time.
"Subverting expectations" is retcon to justify fucking over audiences.
Don't give them what they want. Give them something they don't want instead, that they would never have willingly paid for up front had they known. Anyone that complains? "Fake fans", unlike the new people gatecrashing and ruining what they enjoyed for years.
I think retconning is one of the most important concepts of the modern day to understand.
Stranger Things actually convinced me that girl was cute. I was pissed until I saw her out of her ice cream outfit and I snapped out of it
What else is she in?
Wikipedia says a bunch of stuff I never heard of. My feelings dissolved after the season 3 arc.
Understand.
They are so desperate to ruin the things I like, and want me to sit through it and pretend it's all fine.
I think I'll subvert their expectations and not do any of that.
I subvert their expectations of my wallet
What's wrong with it is that everything old was shit, and everything they do now is new and subversive. If your expectations were subverted, and they pushed a message, then it's perfect and you should kill yourself.
This is because wanting to consume things that are good is a sign of petty bourgeois capitalism, and you should kill yourself for it.
This is also because wanting to consume things that are not THE MESSAGE is counter-revolutionary, and you should kill yourself for it.
You shouldn't be asking to consume things you want in the first place, because that is capitalism, and you should kill yourself for it.
What you are supposed to do is clap and cheer hysterically at whatever narcissism they've shit onto a medium, because if you were a good person, you could be a narcissist like them and live vicariously through their insane Mary Sue power-fantasy that is laden with virtue signaling.
I've noticed this is more common in non-Western media and I think China is what really drives this. You have explosions and the "good guys" winning without much struggle and they love it.
As much as people like to champion anime and manga over western media, a lot of it is just as bad as Marvel in terms of plot yet sells fairly well.
Manga and anime are created by people who like what they're doing and want to entertain people by telling a story, US comics and shows are mostly done by people who hate you and think ill of you and your values.
I'd consider most of them to be the same quality of story as Marvel and Transformers movies, which is my point. The values are simply more popular, but there's a lot of "the good guys win because they're good" even in non-chosen ones stories.
It's the same thing. Leftist ideology is always like this because they are pushing that whomever is morally perfect along the current narrative.
Star Trek once made a reference to authoritarianist literature like this. The problem with Trek is that they assume all conservative and all illiberal societies are like this and only liberalism has a monopoly on depth and creativity. By the time the Leftists subvert the liberal order, it is no longer possible for the remaining Leftists to create anything; while they simultaneously claim to have a monopoly on creativity.
This is why they claim that everything they do is brilliant and brave, despite being repetitive and obviously subversive to an order/hierarchy that is either dead or no longer exists; and condemn all non-Leftist stories as repeating tired drivel.
You can see this in their comedy too. Feminist comedians literally stop telling jokes halfway through their set and then start lecturing; and it's claimed as absolutely fucking hysterical and heroic. Meanwhile, Dave Chapelle is just a tired old transphobe that's never said anything edgy in 20 years (despite the fact that their protestations indicate that he is hitting at an edge of accepted behavior in the society they cultivated through intimidation).
Just read the Thrawn trilogy again and pretend nothing after Revenge of the Sith happened, unless you are a Clone Wars cartoon fan then you get that also.
If they can retcon the entire Extended Universe, then we can retcon their whole fucking worthless trilogy (and a few offshoots).
Honestly, one of the most destructive things about modern audiences is how willing they are to listen to big corporations dictate to them what canon should be. As if they have the divine right to do so.
"No, but, we made this movie, so now the canon has to rotate around it. You only wrote a book series, and offshoot series, an entire language, and 20 years of work into it. That don't mean shit. These art majors from brown who don't like the franchise are the sole arbiters of reality."
STAR WARS: EPISODE 10
HEIR TO THE EMPIRE
It was all a nightmare. Luke Skywalker, leader of the New Jedi Order, slept badly and dreamed of a parallel timeline due to the schemes of Grand Admiral Thrawn, a cunning Imperial warlord...
Don't even need it, just completely memory hole the whole thing and refuse to acknowledge it's existence. Kind of like what they did with the other Ghostbuster's reboot.
So the same idea with the mass effect 3 ending and its retcon.
Amen. I love the Expanded universe
I'm listening to Thrawn trilogy right now, actually. It's good, and so much better than the new glop.
It's amazing how much they messed up "official" Star Wars, when they had so much existing expanded universe material they could have used.
Yes! Thrawn Trilogy, Jedi Academy, Old Republic, Han Solo Trilogy, etc
Thrawn trilogy means it's time for the obligatory shout out to a guy on Youtube called Darth Angelus who has, over the past 4+ years, been creating an animated fan version of Heir to the Empire. I think he's got 2-3 chapters left, and has said in the past he would try to do books 2 and 3 in the trilogy too.
Yes!! That is so good
I have been reading Star Wars EU/Legends since I was 12. When Disney said they wanted a fresh slate I was willing to give them a chance but they my faith in them was misplaced. I had no interest in their canon. On my 12th bday in 92 my I saw Heir to the Empire at Walmart and I had no idea there were Star Wars stories after ROTJ. My mom bought it for my bday and I’ve been hooked ever since. Recently read last NJO book, the Lando Trilogy, and the one where Mara dies. I liked Clone wars but like the 2D one a little more
i am a devout rogue one-ist because it's full of empire wank
I know a few Disney designers, and it's hilarious. If no one is recording them, they agree completely with you. If they have any chance of being recorded, they will say it was an interesting design choice. NDAs mean you don't have an opinion.
I’ve read LOTR trilogy as well as the hobbit but haven’t read Silmarillion yet. It’s in my list to read.
Your mention of the girlboss hero reminds me of game of thrones when Arya kills the night king instead of Jon. I feel that was pure girl power. They set up Jon to face him but can’t even let him have a fight. I liked Arya in the books but can’t help feeling that was feminist influences
That’s my plan. I have the book for my personal library but I plan on listening to it. Thanks! I read the Bible but I’ve been going to church since childhood
Arya and the inevitable grrlboss role she'd be in is what turned me off from getting into that show at all.
Dude, you can't have that. Kathleen said women are awesome so they must awesome at all things no matter what! 😤
I am a huge fan of the old expanded universe and really enjoyed reading about Luke rebuild the Jedi order. So of course they made him a failure
Imagine how different things would have been if Rey and Kyle had both been students of Luke and the plot revolved around Kylo killing him and Rey seeking revenge, having to navigate around his parents and superior skill.
I tried to like the force awakens and justify all the bad decisions they made.
But after the last Jedi, I gave up. I watched it in the theater once and that was one time too many. I keep replaying scenes in my head and it’s all just so. fucking. Awful.
Even the saber fight in the throne room was bad in retrospect.
I absolutely refuse to watch the rise of skywalker or whatever shit title they gave to Ep 9. Disney is truly a shit stain on everything we grew up loving.
Yep. I’m strictly pre Disney Star Wars. Thankfully GL allowed all the expanded universe books and comics to be made
I've seen it referred to as "The Rise of the Skinwalker" and it's entirely accurate.
Honestly, the only media I've seen where this has been done well and in a respectful manner is Batman Beyond
Exactly. Recently finished watching that show.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmAqYREbjHs
This should wash the slop out of you pallet
Thanks! Plus as a huge Expanded Universe fan I loved reading about Luke’s further adventures
Having a female character be a lesbian was bold...20 years ago.
Yep. Although I probably wouldn’t have watched it then because it’s not my cup of tea but 20 years ago lgbt wasn’t massively and obnoxiously over represented
I expect a good movie.
They certainly subverted my expectations!
It's plainly obvious that the film was made with the intention of upsetting fans. The legacy of 2000s entertainment will be hating your audience.