All right, I'll read Starship Troopers with you epic gamers. Some fun info that I came up with after a quick search: Heinlein won Hugo Awards for four novels (back when awards might have meant something, no less): Double Star, published in 1956, Starship Troopers (1959), Stranger in a Strange Land (1961), and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (1966).
Starship Troopers is on the reading lists of four out of five of the US military academies, and was made into a film adaptation by Robocop director Paul Verhoeven in 1997. While it's said Verhoeven was satirizing the society he portrayed, Heinlein... probably wasn't. It is also most likely the original appearance of >!powered armor!< in all of literature. Looking forward to it, fellas!
Reputedly Verhoeven refused to read the book itself, believing it to be facist propaganda, which is why his decidedly un-facist civilization in the film is so damn funny.
Yep, this. Not to mention that the film practically opens with the Bugs destroying Buenos Aires. What are the Terrans supposed to do at that point? Some (including wiki) have speculated that the humans attacked first, but that just isn't in the film. It also tacitly acknowledges that the war as presented is just: I'm quite sure the Bugs would have been extremely pissed if humans nuked Hive Cluster 16 or whatever. Why wouldn't they be?
So it's a movie about coming of age and fighting a 100% justified war in defense of (as you said) a very free and prosperous society. I mean, they let their boot camp trainees just quit at any time. Some repressive nightmare.
Not to mention that the film practically opens with the Bugs destroying Buenos Aires
There is a reason why almost all the "its a brilliant work of satire and everyone is too Fascist to get it" folks have to invent the headcanon of "the asteroid was a false flag" theory.
Despite there being zero anything whatsoever even suggesting or helping that theory. Only "bugs too dumb to throw rock that good, must be humans lying."
The movie fails on everything it tries to do so hard it doubles back into being the opposite.
Yeah. That's what I would say too if I was surrounded by communist progressive-authoritarian filmmakers and producers asking questions about my movie. I've heard that Verhoeven was essentially run out of Hollywood sometime around 2000, when he returned to the Netherlands to make films.
The sarcastic tone in the movie pokes fun at herd morality and thinly disguised self-interest put forth as the moral high ground. No where in the film does it criticize the social or political system as far as I can tell. It just kind of presents it, expands on some of the natural consequences, and let's the viewer decide. Refreshing, really.
By Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin former member of the Eurosceptic right-wing UK Independence Party (UKIP). OUTSTANDING politically based review of the movie in depth, with frequent references to the book.
I believe that ST is easily available as an e-book.
Morgoth also did a review of the movie (without really referencing the book) that looks at the movie probably more through the lens that Paul Verhoeven wanted it to be looked through. It is is a decent counter-point to Sargon's also excellent analysis.
Nothing of value is free. Even life is purchased through effort and pain. And the best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony, sweat, and devotion.
Only if you watch the sequels as well. The third one has a great parody of WW2 military entertainment shows as well as shitty cgi power armour raining fire on the bugs.
There is a PDF copy on archive.org that I would link to but am not sure of the copyright situation (a book from 1959 would seem to still be in copyright, but OTOH archive.org doesn't usually have pirated stuff). If you do a text search on that site, you want the version with the cover that is pleasant to look at but not really appropriate given the content of the book.
Two points. A URL does not violate copyright. Book review is, I believe, one of the listed Fair Use exceptions to copyright. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is codified in US law as Public Law 105 - 304
There is also a long-running thread on /t/ that has ebooks (and/or pdf scans) of most fantasy/sci-fi sorted by decade and author. I think they're up to the 2000s now, so all of Heinlein should be in there somewhere
I always get the shakes before a drop. I've had the injections, of course, and hypnotic preparation, and it stands to reason that I can't really be afraid. The ship's psychiatrist has checked my brain waves and asked me silly questions while I was asleep and tells me that it isn't fear, it isn't anything important - it's just the trembling of an eager race horse in the starting gate. I couldn't say about that, I've never been a race horse. But the fact is: I'm scared silly, every time.
Oh fuck yea! Read it for the first time in 2018, a big departure from the movie. The accounts of Moral Philosophy class and the concept of Duty were eye opening.
Hot take on women in mil as well. Will be interdasting.
I heard the book is fairly different from the movie, hopefully in a better way!. Also, fun fact, the director of this movie was the same director for the original Robocop.
Well, that, and candy for those of us who are rapidly heterosexual males and like seeing Dina Meyer and Denise Richards in naughty conditions. All the movie is missing is Andrea Parker as a Navy officer...
Originally they weren't trying to make a movie based on the book. They had a script for a different movie with a similar plot and later on decided to do so.
A faithful adaptation would probably have military aesthetics more in line with Warhammer 40k Space Marines than the MI that was shown in the movie.
He was also the director of Flesh+Blood, which was an influence on Berserk if any weebs are interested. More importantly all three of these movies were scored by Basil Poledouris, one of the greatest film composers to ever live.
You can read the first three chapters in about an hour unless you are a super slow reader. If you insist on splitting things up, go with the first two, not three, then do 3 through about 8 or 9.
Also be aware that Colonel DuBois is basically Heinlein putting his own ego into the book. Which is not a bad thing at all.
Chapter 1 is an introduction and jumps right into action. Chapter 2 then flashes way back and tells Johnnie's story of how he decided to join up in high school. Chapter 3 is where basic training starts, and the early training portion of the book continues through chapter 6, with a significant moment coming near the end of that chapter. 7-9 detail later training after the cadre has been formed and all the fluff has washed out. 10 & 11 detail Johnnie's first few drops that take place before Chapter 1 and you finally catch back up to real time by Chapter 12.
So if I were structuring a reading list with the intent of discussing the book, I would break it into those sections. Not coincidentally, each of those sections has a pretty specific lesson he tries to impart.
1&2 - Discuss the nature of war and the efficacy of violence as a tool. Touch on how young men are motivated.
3-6 - The importance of volunteerism, discipline, and the necessity of punishment as a training tool. Talk about how effective training is sometimes indistinguishable from torture and how that relates to volunteerism. Discuss how the world in which we live is not even close to a complete picture. Examine the concept of value and how and why it is applied.
7-9 - Discipline, Duty, and Responsibility. When you read it you will know what to talk about.
10-11 - Esprit de Corps and a return to the concept of value
12 - This is a long chapter that deserves its own discussion. In my view, the most important point it makes is, despite the entire book being very much a screed against Communism, that there is a way that you can implement a government so as to get close to the stated goal of Communism by creating a strict filtering mechanism for those who are to govern. Compare the failures of all the several types of governance in history to the structure posited by the book, and further compare that to the structure utilized by the Bugs (Hint: It's Communism and it works brilliantly for a very specific reason).
13 & 14 - Chapter 13 is essentially one giant action set-piece designed to bring all the lessons from the rest of the book together and is essentially Heinlein's proof of his prior theses. Discuss how all the lessons interact and how or why they can/cannot work in our society today. 14 is just a nice bow on the story.
This is a relatively short book, s you can easily combine some sections, but I would keep 1-2 as an intro for sure. You could then do 3-9 since that group of chapters is the "training" section of the book. You could also combine 10-14, although those are longer chapters and there is quite a bit of philosophical meat in there.
Oddly enough, this will be totally cold for me as somehow I've both never seen the movie or read the book. So I'm looking forward to starting once I finish what I'm reading now in a few days.
Something to keep in mind as you read: Starship Troopers can be read on many different levels. It can be read as a straight YA SF book, an old man positing how to order society, and as a self-mocking take on the difference between real world military life and fiction of same. (Pay attention to what Rico is reading in the last half of the book.)
Casper Van Dien may have done an abridged version, but I'm pretty sure he's not done it unabridged. Saying that, last I looked there's at least 2 different unabridged audiobooks of it someone posted to YT which I found thoroughly enjoyable when I listened to them last summer.
That book had me better prepared for basic training than anything else depicting BMT. Mainly that it showed the MTIs just being teachers and trying to get you through these things that some weird sort of torture test.
The only good bug is a dead bug.
On the bounce ya bunch of apes
All right, I'll read Starship Troopers with you epic gamers. Some fun info that I came up with after a quick search: Heinlein won Hugo Awards for four novels (back when awards might have meant something, no less): Double Star, published in 1956, Starship Troopers (1959), Stranger in a Strange Land (1961), and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (1966).
Starship Troopers is on the reading lists of four out of five of the US military academies, and was made into a film adaptation by Robocop director Paul Verhoeven in 1997. While it's said Verhoeven was satirizing the society he portrayed, Heinlein... probably wasn't. It is also most likely the original appearance of >!powered armor!< in all of literature. Looking forward to it, fellas!
And night vision, from what I understand.
GW will probably sue them in the future
Shit, GW will probably sue you for making that comment.
Reputedly Verhoeven refused to read the book itself, believing it to be facist propaganda, which is why his decidedly un-facist civilization in the film is so damn funny.
Yep, this. Not to mention that the film practically opens with the Bugs destroying Buenos Aires. What are the Terrans supposed to do at that point? Some (including wiki) have speculated that the humans attacked first, but that just isn't in the film. It also tacitly acknowledges that the war as presented is just: I'm quite sure the Bugs would have been extremely pissed if humans nuked Hive Cluster 16 or whatever. Why wouldn't they be?
So it's a movie about coming of age and fighting a 100% justified war in defense of (as you said) a very free and prosperous society. I mean, they let their boot camp trainees just quit at any time. Some repressive nightmare.
There is a reason why almost all the "its a brilliant work of satire and everyone is too Fascist to get it" folks have to invent the headcanon of "the asteroid was a false flag" theory.
Despite there being zero anything whatsoever even suggesting or helping that theory. Only "bugs too dumb to throw rock that good, must be humans lying."
The movie fails on everything it tries to do so hard it doubles back into being the opposite.
Yeah. That's what I would say too if I was surrounded by communist progressive-authoritarian filmmakers and producers asking questions about my movie. I've heard that Verhoeven was essentially run out of Hollywood sometime around 2000, when he returned to the Netherlands to make films.
The sarcastic tone in the movie pokes fun at herd morality and thinly disguised self-interest put forth as the moral high ground. No where in the film does it criticize the social or political system as far as I can tell. It just kind of presents it, expands on some of the natural consequences, and let's the viewer decide. Refreshing, really.
Don't tell Gen. Milley.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress should be required reading for basically everyone, but especially for military and now Space Force.
It basically justifies the existence of a Space Force by itself. Sitting at the top of Earth's gravity well is the most powerful position in humanity.
was required reading in highschool for my class. but also tripe like wuthering heights.
By Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin former member of the Eurosceptic right-wing UK Independence Party (UKIP). OUTSTANDING politically based review of the movie in depth, with frequent references to the book.
I believe that ST is easily available as an e-book.
https://smile.amazon.com/Starship-Troopers-Robert-Heinlein-ebook/dp/B004EYTK2C
https://youtu.be/kVpYvV0O7uI
Recommend everyone who hasn't read the book to do so before watching Sargo's review of the movie
Only if they commit to re-reading the book after watching Sargon of Akkad’s review. It is very insightful.
I had always disparaged the movie as a cartoon but Carl Benjamin makes it much more valuable.
Morgoth also did a review of the movie (without really referencing the book) that looks at the movie probably more through the lens that Paul Verhoeven wanted it to be looked through. It is is a decent counter-point to Sargon's also excellent analysis.
I haven't read this since college. Looking forward to it.
Nothing of value is free. Even life is purchased through effort and pain. And the best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony, sweat, and devotion.
TANSTAAFL
Thou art god.
Literally TANSTAAFL, the political system.
Only if you watch the sequels as well. The third one has a great parody of WW2 military entertainment shows as well as shitty cgi power armour raining fire on the bugs.
There is a PDF copy on archive.org that I would link to but am not sure of the copyright situation (a book from 1959 would seem to still be in copyright, but OTOH archive.org doesn't usually have pirated stuff). If you do a text search on that site, you want the version with the cover that is pleasant to look at but not really appropriate given the content of the book.
https://archive.org/details/starshiptroopers0000hein
https://help.archive.org/hc/en-us/articles/360016554912-Borrowing-From-The-Lending-Library-A-Basic-Guide
There's also another copy on there that doesn't have those "borrow" restrictions.
Link URL?
I'm not sure about the copyright situation of that copy. If you do a text search for the book title you will find it.
Two points. A URL does not violate copyright. Book review is, I believe, one of the listed Fair Use exceptions to copyright. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is codified in US law as Public Law 105 - 304
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ304/pdf/PLAW-105publ304.pdf
And United States Code Title 17 as amended.
There is also a long-running thread on /t/ that has ebooks (and/or pdf scans) of most fantasy/sci-fi sorted by decade and author. I think they're up to the 2000s now, so all of Heinlein should be in there somewhere
... so, about a link to this thread? 🏴☠️
Ain't nuthin' to see here occifer
Are, thankee kindly, fellow cap'n upon the Spanish Main. Yar, har, fiddle-de-hee...
I'm tempted to start now, but I will probably wait a bit longer.
I always get the shakes before a drop. I've had the injections, of course, and hypnotic preparation, and it stands to reason that I can't really be afraid. The ship's psychiatrist has checked my brain waves and asked me silly questions while I was asleep and tells me that it isn't fear, it isn't anything important - it's just the trembling of an eager race horse in the starting gate. I couldn't say about that, I've never been a race horse. But the fact is: I'm scared silly, every time.
And now I am hyped. Do I read the first three chapters, then go back to Monster Hunter Legion? It's not like I have a lack of reading material...
Oh fuck yea! Read it for the first time in 2018, a big departure from the movie. The accounts of Moral Philosophy class and the concept of Duty were eye opening.
Hot take on women in mil as well. Will be interdasting.
I heard the book is fairly different from the movie, hopefully in a better way!. Also, fun fact, the director of this movie was the same director for the original Robocop.
The book isn't "fairly different" it's completely different.
Apparently the director didn't even read the damn thing.
Frankly the movie is just meme candy for people who love the book.
Would you like to know more?
Well, that, and candy for those of us who are rapidly heterosexual males and like seeing Dina Meyer and Denise Richards in naughty conditions. All the movie is missing is Andrea Parker as a Navy officer...
Only Starship Troopers could have nudity and have it contribute nothing.
Its meme candy for anyone. Half the lines in it are quotable and amazing. Its the movie version of Star Fox 64.
This should be a flogging offense.
Originally they weren't trying to make a movie based on the book. They had a script for a different movie with a similar plot and later on decided to do so.
A faithful adaptation would probably have military aesthetics more in line with Warhammer 40k Space Marines than the MI that was shown in the movie.
He was also the director of Flesh+Blood, which was an influence on Berserk if any weebs are interested. More importantly all three of these movies were scored by Basil Poledouris, one of the greatest film composers to ever live.
You can read the first three chapters in about an hour unless you are a super slow reader. If you insist on splitting things up, go with the first two, not three, then do 3 through about 8 or 9.
Also be aware that Colonel DuBois is basically Heinlein putting his own ego into the book. Which is not a bad thing at all.
Chapter 1 is an introduction and jumps right into action. Chapter 2 then flashes way back and tells Johnnie's story of how he decided to join up in high school. Chapter 3 is where basic training starts, and the early training portion of the book continues through chapter 6, with a significant moment coming near the end of that chapter. 7-9 detail later training after the cadre has been formed and all the fluff has washed out. 10 & 11 detail Johnnie's first few drops that take place before Chapter 1 and you finally catch back up to real time by Chapter 12.
So if I were structuring a reading list with the intent of discussing the book, I would break it into those sections. Not coincidentally, each of those sections has a pretty specific lesson he tries to impart.
1&2 - Discuss the nature of war and the efficacy of violence as a tool. Touch on how young men are motivated.
3-6 - The importance of volunteerism, discipline, and the necessity of punishment as a training tool. Talk about how effective training is sometimes indistinguishable from torture and how that relates to volunteerism. Discuss how the world in which we live is not even close to a complete picture. Examine the concept of value and how and why it is applied.
7-9 - Discipline, Duty, and Responsibility. When you read it you will know what to talk about.
10-11 - Esprit de Corps and a return to the concept of value
12 - This is a long chapter that deserves its own discussion. In my view, the most important point it makes is, despite the entire book being very much a screed against Communism, that there is a way that you can implement a government so as to get close to the stated goal of Communism by creating a strict filtering mechanism for those who are to govern. Compare the failures of all the several types of governance in history to the structure posited by the book, and further compare that to the structure utilized by the Bugs (Hint: It's Communism and it works brilliantly for a very specific reason).
13 & 14 - Chapter 13 is essentially one giant action set-piece designed to bring all the lessons from the rest of the book together and is essentially Heinlein's proof of his prior theses. Discuss how all the lessons interact and how or why they can/cannot work in our society today. 14 is just a nice bow on the story.
This is a relatively short book, s you can easily combine some sections, but I would keep 1-2 as an intro for sure. You could then do 3-9 since that group of chapters is the "training" section of the book. You could also combine 10-14, although those are longer chapters and there is quite a bit of philosophical meat in there.
And the reason is: they're bugs.
that's a bingo
Oddly enough, this will be totally cold for me as somehow I've both never seen the movie or read the book. So I'm looking forward to starting once I finish what I'm reading now in a few days.
You're in for a real treat, brother.
Something to keep in mind as you read: Starship Troopers can be read on many different levels. It can be read as a straight YA SF book, an old man positing how to order society, and as a self-mocking take on the difference between real world military life and fiction of same. (Pay attention to what Rico is reading in the last half of the book.)
Yeah, I've already got a copy, time to re read it.
Love Heinlein, but never read this. I am excited! Thanks for running this.
Sweet!
Anyone know if Rico, from the movies, did an audio reading of the book? That would be fan-fucking-tastic
Casper Van Dien may have done an abridged version, but I'm pretty sure he's not done it unabridged. Saying that, last I looked there's at least 2 different unabridged audiobooks of it someone posted to YT which I found thoroughly enjoyable when I listened to them last summer.
That book had me better prepared for basic training than anything else depicting BMT. Mainly that it showed the MTIs just being teachers and trying to get you through these things that some weird sort of torture test.
Also the Red Letter Media guys made a Re-View of the movie, it's quite good.
https://youtu.be/OkEdyq3UE5M
Time to crack out the old copy then.
Last time I did though I shotgunned the whole thing in one sitting.
If you want to read this and are having trouble getting a copy, and don't mind piracy, this book is really easy to get via IRC.
Heinlen's estate and trust still benefits from books sales, though, so I really recommend getting a copy for yourself or checking out your library.
Love this book. I reread it probably once a year.
Yall missed out on unintended consequences. Pretty hard to get a copy tho been out of print for a while