I don't understand ANY argument for conscription. Of all the laws on the books that are still "acceptable" in modernity from even the "progressive" crowd, the one that perplexes me the most is conscription.
For me, it's just so simple: If a government needs to force people to fight for the government then the government has no right to exist. A legitimate government should be able to raise a fully volunteer army because all the citizens the government represents wants to fight to defend this government.
Just think about it for a moment. Supposedly some evil enemy is coming to rape your women and kill all the men or enslave everyone by taking their rights away. Everyone should want to defend against that, no? If someone doesn't volunteer to fight against that then clearly they've decided that rape and death is better than... rape and death? Or, perhaps they've decided they can still live without dying for a country and they'd rather this conclusion.
How can anyone justify using force to force something to go to war and die against their will?
I hate the concept of conscription so much I think anyone who suggests it should be hanged, tbh. You want people to fight for you? Offer them an incentive then.
Conscription is as moral as the authority that demands it.
Honestly... Best answer. Well said.
Honestly after WW2 every war is a banker war
i'm fully against any active conscription for conflict that doesn't affect you immediately (i.e being invaded by a neighbor shitskin country)
the sad reality today is that we're invaded by hordes of islamic shitskins and the govt allows these shitskins to steal our jobs and rape our women, and the military? completely cucked
no man should join any military that is ruled by jews and operated by cucks, a paramilitary of highly nationalistic men would make more sense, even if said paramilitary are "terrorists" in the (((government))) eyes
Well said.
If our government deserved to be defended then I'd volunteer and I'm sure many others would also but our government doesn't deserve our lives. They won't defend us so why would we defend them. A government only needs conscription when it's no longer a legitimate government.
Volunteering also depends on a shit economy. The propaganda was strong in the Vietnam era, but the economy was so good that no one wanted to risk their lives to "stop communism".
Yeah WW1 was THE original ZOG war
Have you heard of the 30 years war?
something something organized by jews so they kill each other something something, take over their lands and shekels?
Military slavery only affects young males so nobody gives a fuck.
That's unfortunately the truth. I'd never be conscripted. Too old. I just feel for the young people a bit too much. I see it's very easy for others to throw them to their death. It sickens me but ultimately if it ever happened, I'd be disgusted but it wouldn't impact me.
Outside the morality question, it's just not effective.
Here is a 30 minute video on Fragging in the Vietnam war, something that be came SUCH a problem it effectively disabled the US Army and forced them to embrace a volunteer only service.
The only kind of conscription that works is national service and that only works when there is an identifiable threat next door to your country you must be constantly watching for.
Fragging became a problem the moment military diversified and the command got soft. Magically it wasn’t an issue for the 200 years of conscription before then. If you let a bunch or retards not fighting the actual war get drunk or shoot heroin and have access to weaponry you’re going to have fragging issue.
It wasn't just that, imagine you have to go to war in some foreign country miles away, no direct threat to your home for 2 years. Now imagine you get told to take some hill, why? Doesn't matter, do it resulting in casualties. Then not long after, you abandon said hill despite your losses leaving the enemy to reclaim it once more then days later you have to take it again.
Between this and the massive Tet offensive which showed they had easily infiltrated south to do it and you can imagine a lot of conscripted soldiers thinking some of the officers leading them cared more about a promotion than their lives so 'removing' them gets them to live and go back home..
It literally was, they conscripted black racialists and white leftist radicals who tried fragging their white NCOs. It’s amazing how the leftist violence of the 60s and 70s just disappears in everyone’s brain when it comes to Vietnam.
You just described half the wars Americans fought throughout American history with no fragging issue. Magically it didn’t happen in Korea a decade earlier either.
Again made up conjecture. The reality is violent leftists got conscripted and they did what shitlibs have been doing since the late 50s.
Korea wasn't seen as pointless at all. We were in open combat with communist China and the South was worthy of receiving our support.
With Vietnam, it was pretty obvious we were propping up a dictator and the Chinese stayed over the border and were untouchable. How do you defend a country that doesn't really want to be defended, with an untouchable supply line? You can't, it's impossible. Basically everyone figured this out. So we lost for the same reason we lost Afghanistan.
That’s fair. Vietnam was nothing new for America as defending dictators from communism was pretty status quo since the 50s, but Vietnam was also the only large scale war the US fought to protect said dictators.
If that's so, that more leans more on they were conscription everyone NOT connected enough to avoid the draft into the meat grinder of Vietnam with no real care for filters than any concerted effort to get leftists into the US military....kinda like under Biden...
Again, soft military leadership after it was diversified. No one is arguing the war was run by idiots, but the fragging was not due just war being war. Vietnam was no where near a “meat grinder” it had one of the lowest casualty rates per year of any war America fought it simply dragged out 8 years and even then was only 20k more than the Korean War which lasted 3 years. Boomer propaganda around Vietnam made mountains out of mole hills compared to every other war around that time period.
I'd say it was more a psychological loss as the gross incompetence in higher command during Vietnam removed the prestige of why you don't fuck with America which led to more conflicts worldwide.
Just like how under Biden we got saddled with the Ukrainian-Russia war, there seems to be less conflict after America's successful strike in Venezuela.
Vietnam/ the 60s/ 70s was a civil war that the leftists/ socialists won. It was the first real surge of generational warfare that transferred the Cold War from Russia to globalists versus Americans. The immediate effects were an economic collapse because of socialism, bureaucracy and forced desegregation, the longer effect was the uniparty and corporate socialism being formed with Reagan. Everything since then has been a spiral because “conservatives” thought they were voting against people who shared American values and voting for Republican politicians who “shared their values” but magically cave at every opportunity.
What you're describing has little to do with the draft and much more to do with the incompetence of civilian oversight of the military. Which began a little while before then, post Korean War.
Ahaus is correct in saying that the changes to military structure, priorities and command style were the true cause of the losses of the Vietnam War. The war was being conducted by the head of Ford Motors for crying out loud dude.
From Ahaus post I saw nothing that indicated it was civilian oversight that was the problem other than military command became soft and more on the drunk and drug addiction which if you hear how the vietcong fought, yeah I can understand the need for an escape when you're forced into this environment for 2 years.
I'd say the biggest issue was the lack of a clear goal in Vietnam compared to Korea and THEN involving conscript civilians. With Korea it was clear, you also had a defined geographical border thanks to it being a peninsula. Vietnam, the 3 countries bordering it were supporting them, they had no set way to 'win' the war and some of the weapons the US used like agent Orange affected their own troops.
Vietnam was such a clusterfuck that it effectively made conscription in a non WW3 setting unviable, you can't use Russian/Chinese meat grinder tactics in a war not threatening US main land and not expect consequences.
Yep, that's the part I'm talking about.
They did not fight in any novel or indefatigable way, try to understand. The Vietnam war was not some uniquely traumatizing event in human history compared to every other war of our past. Ditto the most recent crop of wars against the mud slimes, I'd add, and I was part of those.
What changed in those two is command incompetence, and unfitness of the citizenry. We already know that many of the average military age men of the time were basically just hippies. Only the modern generation is more fundamentally unfit men than they were. Self obsessed, self indulgent, self centered, useless.
But that could have been overcome if not for the same "hearts and minds" nonsense that the Bush administration later peddled in Afghanistan and Iraq.
We were invading them, we should have acted like it. But we didn't. In both wars, then and just recently, we didn't actually act like we were prosecuting a war on the enemy.
Just a point of argument. The Tet offensive was one of the most disastrous military campaigns in history, it was a defeat across all fronts and basically wiped out the North Vietnamese army in a single night. It was a "victory" purely because the media at home lied about it.
Yes but that was point I was making, under COMPETENT leadership, the soldiers would have seen the victory as a victory.
But because of incompetent to the point of malice leadership, they saw it as just another nail in that the war is a lost cause and only wanting to go back home.
I mean, if I was conscripted, I'd probably shoot my own people and make a run for it.
If you'd shoot them, they probably aren't "your" people to begin with.
Anyone who'd conscript me against my will is not "my people", so you're right.
I think you are being super defensive. Relax my guy, your premise isn't bad but you are just responding with emotional appeals. Either you feel attacked or are trolling. I don't think you're wrong. I don't think the draft is a good idea.
I mean, I do have an emotional stake in this. I can imagine if I were conscripted in a war I didn't want to fight. Can you not imagine this scenario? How does it feel emotionally... and here I have a bunch of meatheads fighting me about it who'd love nothing more than to throw me into a van and then throw me into the frontlines to die a day later for no just cause.
That's pretty emotionally charging.
When was the last time Canada used their draft? Are you even fighting age? How real is your fear of being drafted?
I have no fear of being drafted but I do fear others being drafted against their will. A bit of empathy, I suppose. I see what's going on in Europe and how conscription has made its way into the discussion in politics in recent times and I am disgusted by the idea of it, even if it likely would never impact me.
A lot of good people died in WWII over a war that all parties fighting it should never have been fighting. I very much see the potential for another such war but I don't think such a war could occur without conscription. Conscription is just a way for tyrants to kill a bunch of men they don't want and serves no real purpose for the nation.
Out of curiosity, how would you handle fighting a war you want to fight?
We live in a diversified shithole.
Soo you should immediately be shunned from any sane society? Amazing how you shitlibs are when society forces us to allow you to exist at gunpoint.
He would be shunned if he did that in a sane society. But we live in clown world.
I think you should be shunned from society for trying to force people at gun point to fight a war they don't want to fight. That's probably the most immoral thing I can think of.
It’s hilarious how quickly you turn into a feminized shitlib bitch the second a responsibility appears. What’s the basis of a society you blithering faggot?
What happened to your AI programming? You seem to be having a malfunction.
Aw! Is the little feminine bitch too dumb to actually make a decent quip? Is your gay mouth rot you got from the hookers already scrambling your brain?
Good to know
Spoken like a true snowback.
Other way around. How can anyone in good conscience think that pacifism is moral?
I don't think pacifism is good but conscription isn't the opposite of pacifism. There's many good reasons not to fight for your country.
I didn't say it was the opposite.
But it is your position.
"I want to benefit from the common defense without contributing anything to it, because I don't wanna!"
Parasitism is inherently immoral. Pacifism is just parasitism applied to the common defense.
Not "many", no. Most of the ones you think there are, are just abdication of your duties as a citizen, and thus a moral crime.
Who necessarily says I want any benefit from the "common defense".
Take Ukraine as an example. If I was Ukrainian and Russia invade, I'd be perfectly content with Putin running the country instead of Zelenskyy. I wouldn't necessarily see any benefit of a defense whatsoever.
Same goes for if the USA annexed Canada. I'd be more inclined to text Canadian positions to the Americans because I'd stand to gain more from the USA conquering Canada than Canada defending itself.
Not all wars actually involve an enemy worth fighting, hence why conscription exists because some people need to be forced to fight or otherwise, the government would crumble. Just because a government crumbles doesn't mean it's a bad thing for the people of said country.
Sure. Then you have an immediate duty to go live somewhere else then. Assuming they'll take you.
As an aside, statelessness needs to make a comeback.
This metaphor doesn't work for you because the people of the the Ukraine are presently being ruled by a tyrannical foreigner who cares nothing for them, and are being "invaded" by their rightful ruler.
See, this is called being a treacher. Something that most functioning societies throughout history have formally criminalized.
This statement bespeaks an incredible lack of historical understanding.
I'd love to live elsewhere other then Canada. Once I am paid 1/30m of the land value of Canada and guaranteed a US passport, along with all taxes I've paid with interest, I'll be gone.
Just like all Western societies including Canada.
All quality people in Canada would stand to gain from being American. Only low quality people whose opinion on anything is worthless would stand to lose.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Male citizens of the US have to sign up for Selective Services. And don't quote me on this because I could be wrong but I believe not getting a passport is a outcome of not registering. So I dunno what the guy is looking for here.
You're describing every formerly white nation at this point.
Hey that sounds exactly like America
Didn't say it wasn't.
How can you appeal to common defense when western governments are currently mass importing military-aged foreign men to replace their own populations? We don't even have countries anymore, just economic zones ruled by hostile governments.
Isn't what I'm talking about. I've repeatedly made reference to much older principles than the nonsense establishments of clown world.
The common defense, right now, would be overthrowing those very same.
So, not allowing yourself to be conscripted, or joining and fragging some zogbot officers would be contributing to the common defense.
That isn't what OP said.
He said there is no argument for conscription. Plain as day, that is his default statement here.
Well, the entire history of humanity belies that claim.
His statement at the top looks to be describing the modern day.
if a government is unjust, it is the duty of the citizens to dissent.
if your government is waging a war that doesn't benefit you or your nation, you have a duty to disobey.
if your government is waging a war that might benefit your nation economically but is not needed for the defense of your nation, you have a duty to disobey.
At no point have I been talking about anything as transient as the modern idea of government.
I have no duties to a country that lets invaders walk in the front door, rob me and then expects me to die for these invaders.
In other words, it's a tragedy of the commons situation.
Nobody except a few crazies want to sign up for military knowing they'll likely die and if nobody signs up then all will die; volunteer army is almost entirely people who don't actually expect to die.
The most sensible choice for an individual is to avoid the military and that's why conscription is needed or the country is lost.
Resisting conscription is not pacifism, it's an overt act of dissent.
Weakness and degenerated morals.
This lacks any second level thinking. Tell me, what happens when only good people who want to fight evil go to war and die while losers, narcissists and degenerates stay home?
The 60s
Ww2 had mass conscription.
Was it random, though?
I think we are seeing the effects of deliberately killing off your warrior caste, you lose your cultural identity because the people who fought for it are dead
In my experience, a lot of losers, narcissists and degenerates volunteer. Don't you remember the trannies joining Ukraine war? I bet it's pretty even all-around and the more the government needs to force conscription, the more likely the volunteers are lower quality.
Which would be what exactly?
My time in the military proves it right. All volunteer just means people that want benefits.
Observing who wanted to volunteer for the Ukraine war.
Also, seeing who among my peers joined the military.
Is not experience.
They have infinitely more right to an opinion on this subject than you do.
I disagree. They're just living on welfare paid by productive members of society like me. They contribute absolutely nothing to society.
You’re not a productive member of society, you’re a degenerate leech who couldn’t even do the most basic responsibility in a society and have a stable family. If you think making line go up is the defining characteristic of a productive member of society then you’re a Jew or Jeet, which is it?
You guys are making a great case for why conscription is entirely immoral. You care nothing for the people and will simply do what you want including sending people off to their death for YOUR benefit and NOT their benefit. Conscription is pure slavery and you are a slave driver. You are as immoral as they come. You are pure evil.
You don't get an opinion on the matter, so it doesn't matter if you do or not.
Literally no.
You've specifically laid out that you are not a member of society. You refuse to contribute to the common defense you benefit from, so you don't get a right to an opinion, and only a flimsy UN treaty keeps you from being formally stripped of citizenship.
I do not benefit from any defense of Canada and neither does any competent Canadian.
In your experience doing what? Fucking hookers and failing as a man?
Burnnnnn jk grow up
You win?
I like Heinlein's idea. You can opt out of military service but then you can't vote, receive any benefits at all, and are basically a subhuman.
I still don't agree with this. So, you opt out of the US Military because you don't want to fight Israel's wars. That makes you sub-human? From my perspective, every person in the US Military is subhuman.
We're assuming an ideal, high-trust, ethnostate. Not a zionist economic zone.
I was assuming both. In a high-trust ethnostate, do you need conscription? I'd volunteer to fight in such a society. IMO, only a zionist economic zone needs conscription.
That's like saying in a high trust ethnostate there'd be no theft. You might not steal, and there'd be less theft in general, but there's always going to be people on the low end of the curve who can't be trusted.
It does mean the circumstances where it is necessary are also much more narrow though, if you actually need to conscript those extra 5% of men still too morally depraved to stand and fight to win the war, then it's gonna be a shitty time. But war is risk, so even if it's not needed to reliably win, why shouldn't the selfish shoulder the same portion of that risk as everyone else? But unwilling participants are also a liability in wartime, so maybe you allow them to recuse themselves from that risk, at a heavy personal cost in the post-war period.
The problem is the conditions in which conscription is triggered.
An existential war with savages who will rape and pillage your lands and children? Conscription is a morally understandable act to force the despicable or foolish into doing their part and increasing the chances the lands are not pillaged. Opting out of that kind of conscription should put you into a lifelong indentured servitude, they sacrificed their lives for your safety, now you must sacrifice from your life for their children's uplift.
A pointless war with a nation that has no means of threatening where you live, at the behest of parasites who will take all the spoils for themselves and have already been insulting and trying to eradicate your family back home for decades? Ain't no shame in dodging that draft, and should be seen as a badge of wisdom.
The latter case ought to call for open insurrection.
And then due to the lack of ability to receive benefits you end up with young men becoming suicide bombers when they're unable to afford to live?
It certainly has no place in a society where only one gender can be conscripted but both can vote. (even if they also have mandatory work for women incase the country gets attacked), but still different to get send somewhere and get blown up by a drone or rocket. But at least the government cant shoot you for not participating, not yet at least.
The problem is that women should not be sent to war, especially in a total war situation. Equality is a farse. Men and women aren't equal. The solution is removing suffrage for women. The solution is not 50/50 conscription for women.
Zelensky, a jew, let jews flee jewKraine while he conscripted and forced White Caucasian Ukraine men, with little to no training and little gear, to go to front line where jews drone bomb them and then blame russia.
It's called the "jew meat grinder" and it's been an effective strategy for jews to kill off millions of young strong White men at a time.
Exactly. What's shocking to me is that some White men defend it. It's so obvious too.
Remember Trump was big tough talk about ending jewKraine war and here a year later it's still raging on. And Trump bows to Zelensky. I remember Zelensky bad mouthed Trump and Vance in front of the press. It's so obvious jews are in charge. When five foot 0 inches tall Zelensky in his fake army fatigue can run lip to USA President demanding more money to kill whites with, Trump and Vance throw tantrum but ultimately caved like bitches because zelensky and jews knew zelensky was goign to get what he wants all along and vance and trump are just posers.
Ofc jews are in charge. Only a moron can't see it at this point.
guys like u/TrumpYe2023 can't see it. He's still trapped in year 2002, angry at "muh muslim terrorrorrorrorrorrists"
The guy has no clue that globalism is just international jewry. He probably can't even identify a jew. Or he thinks jews are "muh chosen people" and "muh greatest allies"
And i don't mean to just pick on him alone. There's millions of old boomers just like him still living in the past like this is 2002 post 9-11 anti muslim terrorist propaganda campaign.
I think it's moral to conscript those who advocate for war.
This is the reason the 19th needs repealed. It's always easy to pound the war drums when you're not the one who suffers the consequences.
I don't think your premise is an incorrect one. I think your hostility and aggressive presentation is losing people here. I think Conscription is a moral wrong, no one should be forced to kill.
Conscription only works when you have a high threat enemy right next to you. Frankly I’m surprised the US had it so long via the draft, considering what happens when you force people into the military isn’t great.
We had high threat enemies all over the frontier until they were all killed or shoved on reservations in the late 19th century, plus wars against Mexico. All that was still in living memory when the world wars happened.
If the young men of your country aren't willing to volunteer to defend it, then your country isn't worth defending.
I mean it would be a step into the right direction if you didn't have to fight for your own replacement at least.
My arguments for conscription are that its upside down, and people are shit. Older generations that got to enjoy peace and prosperity, and hold all the power, sending their 20 year old sons to die for a nation that hates them is obviously wrong. In this case its the older generation that must be forced at gunpoint to do the right thing by their kids and grandkids. The closest thing I can think of for this sort of army is the older people that volunteered to clean up radioactive disasters. I advocate for adultery laws because I know too many people should be forced to do the right thing. What incentive does a crying toddler have to offer their parent that outweighs having fun at the bar? Its also strange to think about but with declining birth rates and test levels its possible that a force of a modern nation's 40 year olds would be larger and stronger than a force of its 20 year olds, but that's also how the 20 year olds all get thrown in vans.
Mandatory military training can be moral, because by the time you recognise you need the training it might already be too late. It's like first aid training: it's only a waste of time until you need it, then you'll be glad you had it.
Mandatory service I think could be moral under very limited circumstances. If the murderrapists are coming to get you, it is immoral to be a freeloader and rely on everyone else putting themselves in harm's way to protect your community while you cower behind them.
The murderrapists are coming to get us anyway and the military is training to kill us if we resist.
You ask how conscription is moral without establishing why conscription would happen. Conscription generally comes about because of flaws in a society. Be it in the populace, the leadership, or even in your own views.
Laziness, stupidity, greed, indolence, or, to a degree, domestication/pacification.
Conscription is not necessarily immoral, the reasons that make conscription necessary are immoral.
If you can be conscripted, you aren't a free man. You're a subject or a slave.
Conscription is only when your side is losing.
Neimo put it best, and I argue there is another moral reason for conscription: survival.
if a people face a war of extermination, then every one of those people must contribute to their self defense. this could mean hard labor, being sent to the front, being separated from family, in the myriad of other scary things which make individuals think "I will survive this if I just keep my head down", a suicidal disposition when facing extermination.
Conscription galvanizes people and keeps them fighting to live.
You're assuming that in this war of extermination that only the enemy you're fighting wants to kill you, but the reality is that we'd be forced to fight to enable to invasion of those who will kill us.
Hahahahahahaahha.
No.
As long as they can watch, at least 25-30% of men will be perfectly happy
It's all brainwashing