A disturbing percent of the population (even on this site) is unable to differentiate between “the jedi” and “The Jedi Order”

Counterpoint: badly written "good guys" are less sympathetic than bad guys at times. Ex: Harry Potter

The conversations about the Jedi being the real bad guys does often approach the realm of pretentiousness and fart sniffing.

Oh Smith you're a WOT guy. After reading WOT I often thought the Jedi and the Sith controlled the force like the difference between Saidin and Saidar, without the gender stuff. The Jedi submit to the force, like the women did with Saidar, and the Sith use brute force to control the force, like the men did with Saidin. Have you ever had a similar thought

The jedi themselves, the people making the hard choices to create a better world aren’t the bad guy and never have been - the point is just that from 4-5-6 we knew that “The Jedi Order” had to have collapsed prior to the events of the movies right? Well, in discussing how the Order might have collapsed, Lucas could have told a simple story of “the good guys got beaten by someone stronger who came out of nowhere”, but then the Prequels would probably have been even worse than they were - he instead went with “the Order had become too rigid, too ignorant, too arrogant, and this all contributed to their being blindsided by a threat so vast they couldn’t even imagine it was sitting right next to them” - which I think is far richer and more interesting, and allowed them to tell stories like those of the Clones and Order 66 with the heft of moral ambiguity behind them

Good DEFEATING evil? You bigot! Do you think the lesbian space witches were evil when the Jedi inadvertently murdered them? Do you think Jedi Korean was good when he invoked the oppressive patriarchy to give his adoptive daughter figure permission to kill him in revenge for saving her life, thus denying her the satisfaction of a proper revenge lady boner? YOU’RE A MONSTER!!

I don’t think it’s that simple - it’s far more Jungian than that - otherwise, why would Anakin be the chosen one and not Luke? Why did Luke have to lay down his arms (hands? Lol) in order to defeat the emperor via the redemption of his father? There has to be something to the notion of “integrating the Shadow”

Here’s something I read this morning which led to making this post, and I think he makes some good points about the nature of “balance” in the SW universe (not ai generated this time lol):

After the release of Revenge of the Sith in 2005, George Lucas described the story of Star Wars as the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. The six films together told a complete story of Anakin’s rise, fall, and redemption, placing him at the center of the narrative. Anakin is designated as the chosen one meant to bring Balance to the Force, fulfilling a long held Jedi prophecy. This task for which Anakin was uniquely qualified seems to be complete when the Emperor is destroyed and the Galaxy is redeemed.

There exists in the Star Wars Galaxy a prophecy of one who is meant to bring Balance to the Force. George Lucas made clear his intent that Anakin Skywalker, later turned Darth Vader, was, as believed by Qui-Gon Jinn, in fact the Chosen One meant to fulfill this prophecy.

Though Luke Skywalker is the hero of the Original Star Wars trilogy, his character arc culminates in the redemption of his father, rather than the destruction of the primordial evil force in the story, Darth Sidious, or the Emperor.

Anakin was ultimately responsible for the destruction of both the Jedi and the Sith. George Lucas has confirmed that, regardless of his fall from grace and Luke taking up the mantle of hero, Anakin did not loose his designated role as the Chosen One, meant to bring Balance to the Force.

Yet the question remains: What does Balance of the Force means?

For the first part of this discussion, I’ll be focusing primarily on the prequel and original trilogies. For better or worse, the sequel trilogy as it exists was not part of George Lucas original vision for Star Wars. As Dave Filoni has said in interviews and commentary, George Lucas should be seen as the arbiter of anything related to the deeper lore and mythology of Star Wars, particularly in relation to the Force.

Perhaps if we can answer the question of what Balance of the Force means in the mythology of Star Wars as imagined by Lucas, we can better understand the manner in which the sequel trilogy fits narratively and thematically as a continuation of what was once a complete six film saga.

George Lucas based the mythology in Star Wars largely upon the Monomyth or the Hero’s Journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell in ‘The Hero With a Thousand Faces.’ Campbell was himself influenced by the work of Carl Jung, who proposed the existence of archetypal forces which emerge from the collective unconscious. These archetypes are ancient patterns of personality, distinct from the individual unconscious described by Sigmund Freud. They, manifest in the real world, taking different shapes or forms when filtered through the subjective lens of the individual.

Joseph Campbell’s writings on comparative mythology describe the emergence of these archetypal personas through myths, folklore, and religious stories from around the world. Campbell described the universal patterns and character types seen in the stories told in disparate societies across time as a manifestation of innate primal psychological forces. Though the names and faces vary, the forms are surprisingly constant. Campbell likened these archetypal characters to masks picked up and worn by individuals by whom they are manifest and given life.

George Lucas constructed the mythology of Star Wars by distilling these powerful universal motifs. The Force may be likened to the collective unconscious, a substratum underlying physical reality which both emerges from and gives rise to individual organic life.

The primary characters in Star Wars are modern variations of the archetypal forms including the hero, the mentor, and the shadow. We see these characters exchange masks at various stages in their lives. Notably, Anakin Skywalker, a representationn of the hero in the prequel trilogy, later dons the mask of the shadow through an experience of death and rebirth as Darth Vader. Jung described the archetypes as inherited potentials which take different shapes when actualized through the thoughts and behaviors of an individual. The Dark Side of the Force itself may thus be described as a representation universal ‘shadow’ archetype.

The 'shadow' is an inextricable aspect of an individual psyche. It is the archetypal persona with the potential to do evil things. Every person has a shadow. Jung wrote of 'confronting and synthesizing the shadow', meaning evil is unrealized potential that exists within the individual. To confront and synthesize the shadow is to recognize one's weaknesses, the paths that could lead one to act upon those ideas and manifest the 'shadow' archetype in the world. Darth Vader always existed as a potential within Anakin, which was actualized when he chose to put on the mask of the shadow.

George, in various interviews, has simplified the dichotomy between the light and dark sides of the Force as representations of compassion and selfishness respectively. So what then is meant by balance? An equal devotion to or manifestation of both good and evil, light and dark? At the end of the original six film saga, both the Jedi and Sith have been destroyed so many have speculated that total devotion to the light side of the Force was the primary flaw of the Jedi as was total devotion to the Dark Side a flaw of the Sith. But this interpretation would have no basis in any real world moral or ethic. It would imply that total devotion to good, to compassion, is a moral evil, a notion which is not reflected in any of our religious or mythological stories.

There are no ‘Grey Jedi’; Anakin balances the Force, not by embracing or blending the ideals of both the Jedi and the Emperor, but by wholly rejecting the Dark Side. The original trilogy concludes with the Return of the Jedi, the return of the light; achieving balance. Luke Skywalker and his sister Leia Organa remain to rebuild a New Jedi Order after the fall of The Empire.

But wait, what about the fall of the Jedi order? In the path to achieving Balance, thousands of Jedi were also killed. Weren’t they servants to the Light Side of the Force? Why was the Jedi Order destroyed? Was this the ‘Will of the Force’? Often we see in our religious stories, purgation of the religious institutions after they have been corrupted and deviated from their original mandate. The Jedi were devoted to the Light Side of the Force, but that does not mean their decisions and actions were morally aligned with the light.

Returning to Jung, if we consider ‘the shadow’, the Dark Side of the Force, to be an inextricable aspect of any individual or institution, it cannot be eliminated because it exists within all beings, as a byproduct of free will. The collective unconscious is an inherited trait. Call it original sin, passed down from primordial forebears. As long as good is a choice, evil is a possibility. This means that the light must continually confront and synthesize the shadow, the dark side – not by integrating and acting upon those ideas or desires, but by recognizing their existence, keeping them in check, and actively choosing not to manifest the dark side in the material world.

When balance is achieved, neither light nor dark ceases to exist. The light must be actualized, and the dark must remain unrealized potential, the byproduct of choice. To 'eliminate' the dark side, is to eliminate free will, freedom to choose the light, and thus the individual no longer has agency - and becomes an automaton. Imbalance.

I think there's evidence for this understanding - in the final arc of Clone Wars season 6, Yoda's journey leads him to a place where he confronts his shadow (visually represented as an evil form of Yoda), and overcomes his own darkness. Even Yoda has this dark seed within himself which has the potential to grow and emerge through thought and action if it remains unrecognized and it is only through recognition of that evil that resides in himself that he is able to attain the path to 'immortality'. Prior to this revelation and confrontation, Yoda believed himself to be devoid of, separate from the Dark Side. The shadow within himself was unrecognized.

You could apply this to the Jedi Order as a whole. Anakin is the dark potential, the shadow, of the Jedi Order, which the council fails to recognize. The Jedi serve the light, but don't realize the cracks in the foundation which ultimately allow Anakin's turn to Darth Vader. Qui-Gon (not surprisingly the first Jedi seen in the story to attain the path to becoming a Force Ghost, instructing Yoda from beyond the grave), is likely the one Jedi who could have prevented Anakin's fall. Qui-Gon was the father figure absent in Anakin’s life. That role was later vacated by Qui-Gon’s death at the hands of Darth Maul, and later filled by Chancellor Palpatine. Qui-Gon’s instruction to Obi-Wan in the opening scene of The Phantom Menace to obey the will of the Living Force signals his role as a prophet like figure to the Jedi Order. Yet the Jedi Council failed to head his words which served as herald for their impending destruction.

The Order had become rigid, too strongly set in tradition, to adapt to new ideas (evidenced by their initial refusal to train Anakin because he was 'too old', despite the fact that he very well could be the 'chosen one', which introduces a sort of Pharisaical allusion). They had too closely aligned themselves politically with the Republic and thus served as Generals rather than Peace Keepers during the Clone Wars. Evil commanded both armies, yet the Jedi chose a side. Neutrality was the only path that could have averted Sidious trap. All of these factors play directly into the events which result in Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader, the destruction of the Jedi Order, and the fall of the Republic. Essentially, there existed an imbalance in the Force. The Jedi's vision is clouded by the Dark Side - because their ideology has fallen out of alignment with the Light Side of the Force. They attributed this lack of foresight to some external shroud, failing to recognize that the dark potentia within their own ranks in the form of Anakin Skywalker, whose fall was in part precipitated by their own corruption.

Palpatine’s machinations were indeed a very real threat whose identity as the puppet master orchestrating the events of the Clone Wars remained elusive as a result of the Jedi Council’s clouded vision. The Jedi’s inability to recognize this evil Force in such close proximity The Jedi may be understood to mean the Force was not speaking to them because they weren’t truly listening. The Jedi of the Old Republic, prior to Darth Bane’s creation of the Rule of Two, fought to vanquish an external evil Force. For a thousand years, the Jedi believed they had succeeded in eradicating this external force of evil. Just like war, peace is a snare. Over time, their alignment with the light side of the Force drifted. In bright sunlight, high noon, contrast is reduced. The shadows become difficult to see. Only at sunset, the twilight of the republic, as the light fades and the shadows grow deep do they recognize the one they cast, following their own footsteps.

Balance does not mean equal parts light and dark manifest in the world, nor does it mean the eradication of the dark, but the proper orientation of light and dark, where the former is actualized in the world and the dark remains unrealized potential. The only way to maintain balance is to realize that the dark resides within. Any other path leads to imbalance. To view the dark side as something which can be eliminated, as did the Jedi, is externalize it and thus leave the shadow within unchecked, able to metastasize and overtake the light.

Consider that Luke, in his training on Dagobah, enters the Dark Side cave and confronts a vision of Vader, ultimately witnessing his own face behind the mask. He later learns that Vader is his father - thus Luke confronts his own shadow. Vader, the external evil he must confront is his own blood. Thus he must understand and come to terms with the knowledge that the very potential for evil which transformed Anakin Skywalker also exists within himself. Interestingly, this revelation is also what allows Luke to see the light remaining in Vader, inapparent to even Yoda and Sidious, which ultimately brings about Vader's redemption, the defeat of the Emperor, and salvation of the Galaxy. It follows that, if the potential for evil, actualized by Vader resides within Luke, the son, then so too must the good that is in Luke reside within Anakin, the father.

During the final throne room confrontation in Return of the Jedi, Luke casts aside his lightsaber, refusing to strike down Darth Vader in anger. Luke recognizes the shadow in himself, visually represented by his mechanical hand – the first step to becoming more machine than man. In the ultimate act of non-violence, Luke saves the Galaxy, not by destroying Vader, but by refusing to become him. He has no hope of defeating the Emperor. Luke recognizes his inability to destroy the Emperor, the external source of evil, yet understands he retains power over his own choices, the destiny of his own soul. Luke is willing to suffer, sacrificially to preserve that light in himself and thus brings Anakin back from the Dark Side of the Force.

Yoda and Obi-Wan mentored Luke, but failed to see this potential in Vader. Their advice to Luke was flawed. Obi-Wan told Luke that if he refused to kill Vader the Emperor would have already won. Yet, the Emperor failed because of Luke’s refusal to kill Vader.

Anakin ultimately was the instrument by which balance was achieved. He finally synthesized his shadow, Vader, when he saw the suffering of his child at the hands of the Emperor. Anakin, in the last moments of his life, refused the shadow, returned to the light, and defeated the Emperor, the symbolic source of imbalance. The mask of the shadow was at last removed and Anakin wass able to look on his son with his own eyes one final time.

Luke and Leia, twins born of a union unsanctioned by the previous Jedi Order, were left at the end of the Saga to rebuild this institution meant to serve the light side of the Force. Luke did not reject the teachings of Obi-Wan and Yoda wholesale. He integrated their instruction, but also followed the will of the Living Force, recognizing it was not the will of the light to destroy Vader.

At the end of the six film saga, Balance was achieved and harmony restored to the galaxy

Yeah, kind of how I feel. There needs to be some suspension of disbelief, but you can just say one side is good and the other is bad, because it's fiction, and it seems like that's how that particular universe is laid out. There were some imperfect people, but that doesn't (necessarily) make them less of the Good Guys. Good Guys can still fail. Luke - who no one really argues was a bad guy - failed repeatedly.

If I was to level any accusation against the Jedi (which is mostly post hoc fart-sniffing, as someone else mentioned), it would be the whole 'starting really young thing.' Everything else can be assumed voluntary, if a little cultish, but since they're taken as kids it's no longer voluntary, so that gets pretty dang murky. That's the main one that's morally questionable. Most of the other complaints come down to...competence. And, yeah, there's plenty of criticism to throw at the Jedis and the Council on that front, no question. In my opinion they tried to keep order and stability, and just failed at it, in a pretty spectacular fashion. After quite a lot of success, too, though, if I recall correctly. Basically, it's just your standard death of an empire...or in this case death of a republic. It would have happened with or without the Jedi, and probably fallen apart sooner without them.

The other issue with the 'are the Jedis the good guys' question is, how much of it comes down to nuance, and how much to sloppy writing? Lastly, you also have to ask if, in universe, some of their worse actions still make sense. They're afraid - rightly or wrongly - that someone too controlled by their emotions would abuse the force, so in that regard they think they have to start Jedis very young.

Anyway, it's a fun discussion - sort of - but I agree with you and others that it's mostly just nuance-hunting for the sake of it. In universe; Jedis are Good, Sith are Bad. There can be redemption or falling to the dark, so there can be some movement back and forth, but the Jedis are still the good guys, if imperfect ones.

I thought the whole midiclorian thing was about how much a person can access the energy field and how sensitive they were to the energy field??

Lucas retconned the force to not be an intangible energy field, but a disease that can be tangibly and consistently measured for via blood tests.

Not sure I agree with this take, though it is obviously an unfortunate possibility opened by the prequels introducing medichlorians, I don’t think it was his intention to “demystify” the force so much as give a plot justification for Qui Gon taking such an interest in the young Anakin

His notions of the “Living Force” and “Cosmic Force” get into this, but I think he never abandoned his original framing of “The Whills”, and it simply took shape over time as the notion of a/the “Will of the Force”

Im not making the case that the prequels are flawless or even particularly great movies, simply that many criticisms of the jedi order we see people make today, often focused on the prequels, were in fact done on purpose and done to increase the thematic depth of the story - for example, that’s likely why we see the Republic award ceremony is a shot-for-shot remake of Riefenstahl’s scene from Triumph of the Will

No they have more changes to the force making it something even someone not force sensitive can learn to do.

based around a hamfisted idea clumsily lifted by Lucas from the American Indian premise that everything has a spirit, including trees and rocks. Much like how he lifted the "they aren't allowed to marry" thing from one of the more halfassed Protestant critiques of Catholicism.

plagiarist

You can argue about the quality of the idea lifted or the way it was executed in adapting it, but if that's your standard for "plagiarist" then I'm not sure you'll find any writer in any medium who hasn't committed plagiarism.

The Jedi were made utterly retarded because Lucas wanted them to fulfill a specific role within his political drama.

Absolutely (oops, there i go) true, and I think this gets at a really interesting dichotomy between eastern and western ways of thought, which I think this video i posted in the past, on building and design principles (of all things), gets into:

https://communities.win/c/KotakuInAction2/p/17tebqWDn3/how-culture-wires-the-brain--ori/c

The closest I've ever seen him mention a plan for Star Wars was the idea of there being twins in the original films. They were not set in the roles eventually shown however, so while there was a vague idea of tropes going around his head Lucas was doing little else than a sci-fi/space opera monomyth movie at just the right time for it to be groundbreaking cinematography. The effects of which would lead to similar production designs in sci-fi eventually spawning The Last Starfighter, BSG, Buck Rogers, and more which themselves were foundational designs for modern creations including gaming franchises such as Wing Commander, which included Mark Hamill as Blair from the third game onwards.

Palpatine was a space jew

My love of starting fights online? Or my love of deep lore? Or my love of taoist mysticism? It’s probably a confluence of everything - which part are you getting at?

Precisely!

Americans have an obsession with "the good guys win" as a trope, so much so that even now, when bad guys winning is a cliche, it's only a cliche as a REFELCTIVE TROPE it's not a trope of itself.

Essentially Americana is built on the idea that virtue=victory, modern writers HATE that, so they write stories where vice=victory, but that's still the same idea just inverted.

Star wars ultimately IS a good guys win story, but the story of thr jedi is a very Eastern one, one where Virtue doesn't guarantee victory. Often it guarantees the opposite, but that doesnt make it the wrong choice.

The Jedi lost, but that doesnt make them evil, or even wrong. You'll notice in the whole story, the failures of the Jedi weren't their beliefs, but they're failure to apply them consistently. EVERY point of failure in Annakin's story is a point where somebody makes an exception for him instead of sticking to the code. Right down to him being accepted into the order in the first place.

I think his framework was a Taoist one, where yin and yang (light and dark) are inextricable parts of a greater whole