Something that has been on my mind quite a bit over the last few years has been the shift in fashion trends, not just with clothing and the like but with body styles. If you were born in the 80s or earlier, you are old enough to remember when what was considered attractive now was not attractive then, especially if you're White. If you grew up in the 80s, 90s and very early 00s you might remember who the"hot" female stars of the day were.
Women who looked like
Feminine, slender, fit, lithe, tight, and tiny. We called them spinners and had phrases like "an ass so tight you could bounce a quarter off of it".
And yet, now the beauty standard among even White women is more like
Obviously something happened in the last few decades. Now we all know fashion trends and what is considered attractive culturally does shift naturally over time, though it's usually in spans of centuries. But it's suspicious to me that this transition took place at the same time black culture was deliberately starting to be pushed into the spotlight. The DEI push started gaining steam about 15-20 years ago, it's only become more overt and aggressive now that they've gained enough institutional power. But the push to make black sports stars, black actors, black music, etc all the most popular really started to get going in the mid/late 00s. Right around the collapse of the last punk/alternative music era where real genuine bands with real musicians and instruments got pushed into a more niche interest and rappers and autotune started taking over. I'm sure many of us who are old enough noticed the change and can think of more examples. But it's gotten bad enough that if you tell some people you still find the first group attractive and the second gross, you might be accused of being a pedo or liking girls who look like little boys.
My question is, do you think it was deliberately pushed on us by the malicious powers that be, or was it just a natural shift, like as Americans got fatter in general, fatter women who at least kind of wear it better than a blob became the new beauty standard? A bit of both? Any other reasons or factors you might think contributed to it? It just seems odd to me that as blacks and their standards were forced into everything else, even White women started to want to look like black women just with lighter skin. You'd never have heard of the latest "it girl" in a mid 90s summer teen comedy or slasher movie wanting to get ass implants, much less find a White high school boy in 1997 who wanted a girl who had them. We wanted volleyball players and the cheerleaders at the top of the pyramid, not twerkers and ghetto chicks. "Thick"(we still spelled it correctly back then) was a positive adjective for black chicks and the black dudes who liked them, and they were welcome to keep it to themselves. But that was then, and it's not that way now, even for a ton of White men. Why though?
Comment Removed for: Rule 16 - identity attacks
Comment Removed for; Rule 16 - identity attacks
Asserting jewish racial conspiracy to... make eyeglasses ugly... ok
Oh you've done counter research? State your evidence.
You don't have any evidence for your assertion of the eternal jewish race war via eyeglasses.
It’s niggification. That standard goes back much further in nigger culture. They have to have something to twerk and what not.
Do I think it’s deliberate in that there’s some puppet master doing this? Not really. It’s decades and decades of destroying the American black and worshipping them the whole way down. No one was doing this when black icons were Ella Fitzgerald and Nat King Cole, now that all is left is the lowest of the low niggers, you gotta follow whatever trend Lil Ho Fucker records on his latest ape sounds album.
You're right, but you're missing the role of social media.
Fashion prior to the mid 00's didn't have stuff like Instagram pushing normal female fad-following behavior into overdrive. I make no claim about how much of it is authentic vs astroturfed but as far as adoption speed, it's important to consider.
I guess the MySpace era occupies that gap between online quick fad spread and the DEI push.
Social media certainly accelerated things, but the question is, who or what got the first domino falling.
I first started seeing this trend pop up in Skyrim modding, with the kinds of modded companions and bodyslide presets people were coming up with.
I just thought it was a bunch of weirdos with a strange fetish, possibly deriving from some popular branch of anime or something. But then after a few years I started seeing it randomly pop up here and there in more mainstream circles.
Based on any number of other "strange" trends that we've seen pop up or expand in just the last decade, I'd say you're probably right, that this has to be yet another weird semi-spontaneous amalgamation produced through social media.
Furry fandom alone is a classic example of how this stuff can spread like an actual contagion. Mankind was ill prepared for a globally accessible Internet.
Was born in 80 but the thing that woke me up the the hatred of beauty first was comic books and video games. When I noticed every female had to be unattractive and also noticed the double standard since males with rippling muscles was ok (look at the cover of any romance novel). Add to that the DEI obsession and the constant push for the trio of black/lgbt/girl power. I think part of the decline also ties into the ridiculous push to make it seem like the norm is men and women who don’t conform to traditional gender appearances
Total side question since you're awake and here, in another thread we were talking about anime and I wanted to ask you in particular; do you watch anime, and if so, what race do you perceive the characters as being?
I’ve always seen them as either white or Japanese unless they were drawn to be black. Or darker brown skin could still be Asian.
Not the dude you're responding to, but it's always been obvious to me that most anime characters look most like white people. For as much as they can look like anyone with their humongous eyes and exaggerated features.
I'm implicitly aware that most of the time they're Japanese due to the setting and that this is just a choice made for stylistic purposes. I recall an episode of Log Horizon....in season 2 maybe(?) where the main character morphs himself to show what he looks like in real life. That is the closest attempt I've seen to portraying how actual Japanese people would look in anime form.
I asked, because that very topic was brought up in another thread, and you might be interested to know that white people seeing anime characters as white people is a known factor in the animation of the characters. Japanese people in fact, see them as Japanese. The reason for this is because they are drawn just different enough from actual humans, like how facial structures more closely resemble that of a cat than a person, that there is an uncanny valley effect in which the viewer can project their own internalized "ideal person" on to the character. Basically since they don't look too much like anything in particular, the viewer's brain superimposes what it thinks they should look like on what it does, and that's what they see it as. Japanese anime fans have been asked before, and they really do see tall, fair-skinned, large chested, blonde with straight hair and large round blue eyes characters as Japanese. It really doesn't occur to them to see them as white. Same thing for the characters with blue hair, pink hair, male characters with giant red and blonde spiky hair, and all the rest. Because it doesn't look real, your brain sort of skips over comparing what it looks like to what it "should" look like, and just decides it looks like what you would expect it would look like. If you're White, you would expect them to be White. If you're Japanese, you would expect them to be Japanese. And for the most part, that's exactly how it plays out in real life with the viewers. I asked smith, because dark skin is such an obvious trait, and so uncommonly portrayed in anime on purpose, to see if it had the same effect on him. And apparently it doesn't.
Thanks for the rundown. Yeah I've seen videos where Japanese people say they look Japanese but I've never really thought of the mechanism behind it.
I'd have loved if Smith trolled the fuck out of you and insisted they all look black to him.
lol. I don’t think to say that but it would be funny
This is a multifaceted problem.
On the one hand the women in the below examples are grotesquely obese. That is as you suggested a deliberate nudge of standards, towards lower body obesity that is extremely common in black women. It's a deliberately degenerated standard.
But then we have picture number 2 of the above examples. I know who a couple of those women are, namely Gellar and Lavigne. Those two are still curvy and feminine. The second picture has hips like a teenage boy.
That is also the same problem but in a different direction. Another degenerated standard of beauty, in this case something pushed by gays who tend towards predation of little boys.
Overall you're right, these things are not naturally occuring shifts in standards.
Picture #2 is Tara Reid, the lead female in American Pie, the defining teen sex comedy of the era.
Didn't have a TV at the time, didn't recognize her. Too skinny for my tastes.
Strong disagree. Absolutely nobody anywhere of any influence is pushing girls to be slender and lithe anymore. If you're talking about pushing girls into transing themselves, that is a different issue entirely. That is pushed by the queers, but this topic is not about that. This is about the standards of beauty for straight men and what those straight men find attractive in straight women, and what those straight women want to look like. In 2024, and really since about 2008~10ish, the universally recognized standard in the west has become that in order for a woman to be attractive, she has to have the body of a black woman, or at very least the body of an overweight Latina woman, while working towards having the body of a black woman. The standard of wanting women to look like, and women themselves wanting to look like, what was attractive in the 90s, is met with exactly the attitude you suggested. That the person must want them to look like little boys. Absolute balderdash.
I was a White teenage boy in the mid 90s, and we liked tiny little volleyball and cheerleader type girls, not other boys our age. We knew of the black attraction to 'junk in the trunk' and thought it was repulsive. And given by the famous people I posted (and I can keep going by the way. Allison Hannigan, Larisa Oleynik, Hillary Duff, Hayden Panettiere...) who all looked pretty much just like that, it wasn't just me and my little group of friends in the midwest who had that same standard for white girls. The hot little blonde or brunette the captain of the football team our homecoming queen was able to pick up with one hand and set on one side of his shoulders was considered the hottest chick in the school 999 times out of 1000. It was the national standard of beauty for white teenage guys from at least the early 90s when I started noticing girls until the mid to late 2000s. And looking back at older movies, pictures, bands, a lot of standards shifted around in fashion and even body type somewhat for white girls for many many decades before my youth, but one thing you will never see being popular in the '80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s, 30s, and beyond is white women wanting to have an ass that looks like a black chick from the projects and makes up a quarter of her body weight. And yet, now that is the standard.
My question is whether the cultural pressure to have white women look like black women is simply because everyone is getting more obese, and black women have always been more obese(with a lot of it going to their ass) anyways, so it's sort of a coincidence, or if it's a deliberate attempt to erase what used to be a unique White standard and replace it with a black one.
First paragraph. I didn't disagree that it's not only disgusting, but also artificial. Not at any point did I say that it is presently going the other way. It has in the past, something my friends and I called "crackhead skinny".
I'm saying that it's fully possible to have degenerated standards of beauty in other directions.
There is a happy medium.
And again to answer your question about the present situation, it's completely artificial.
Not now, but it used to be so. See f.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_chic
Heroin chic reminds me of Mugatu's Derelict homeless fashion line from Zoolander
uhhhh I hate to break it to you, but that ain't even remotely close.
Not that it doesn't get worse.
Someone needs to tell the niggers that twerking is cultural appropriation of gorilla mating rituals.
I'd say a large part is the black fetish that gets pushed in media. Asses and hips like a bag of rotten potatoes are genetic in certain demographics.
I suggest you make this post in /pol/ on 4chan or on ConPro (https://communities.win/c/ConsumeProduct/), since the mod here has made it against the rules to discuss the decline of western culture with meaninful honesty, maturity, or brevity.
Your post appreciates the problem purely via the behavior of white women and you are allowed to say anything about them in that context because you are not accusing them of expressing any collective or personal agency for their actions (otherwise you may be suggesting a conspiracy among their identity group, which violates the mod's "rule 16").
Paradoxically, even though you cannot blame women for their own actions- since that could equate to an accusation of conspiracy among an identity group- you cannot blame anyone else, either, since it could be considered an accusation of conspiracy among a different identity group instead.
You can phrase it rather carefully to discuss things without accusing anyone of anything, by using what I call "zero custody language". In Zero Custody Language a person does not shoot a victim, the victim simply "becomes shot." To use Zero Custody Language in an example:
But it is easier to just find a free speech forum without a mod who is definitely not a direct participant in the conspiracy theories he has banned, and type in plain language there.
Yes it's a glowie op, yes it's gaslighting, yes they are out to get you. They're trying to go after white men in particular and brand obesity as the new normal but because this is on an instinctive level and not everyone is a chubby chaser it's only really working on the literal walking blobs who don't want to exercise.
I think what really gets me isn't all of that it's the idea that women have been successfully brainwashed into thinking they can look as bad as they do and seriously believe they can nab a man far higher than the standard they're at just because a rich guy may have pumped and dumped them one time.
By the way, if you think the obesity is bad OP, think about the sort of lifestyle all of these women are leading. I don't know how it is in other countries necessarily but all they do is go to parties 24/7 usually nightclubs and bang total strangers, sometimes in a lot of cases more than one depending on how slutty they are. In Britain they definitely smoke a lot and they do binge drinking on top of it quite often every weekend.
They live incredibly unhealthy lifestyles which is why by the time they hit their 30's they look like they're 50 and age like milk. Oh and by the way, the reason I say it's glowies is because the instagram thots often end up having links to all kind of pro-military ops. We saw in Ukraine for example they were getting female military members to do the instathot thing for recruitment purposes and yes they were doing a psyop to try and get simps to sign up.
The instathots also like to make heavy use of photo editing or as others have mentioned or they fake it like with padding their bras etc. The thing we have to take into account being autistic as fuck, what are they faking first? Because we can't judge them on beauty standards given the level of fake out there when it comes to even fairly average women these days.
OP If it was deliberate you'd see more zendaya and rachel ziegler type stars as "attractive"
I think a simple thing that you're overlooking is the prevalence of tights, something which didn't exist in the 90's too ubiquitous today. Tight are essentially pushup bras for butts, and shape any fat there. Even a pushup bra can't make excess fat into extra boob. It shows the shape but not what's actually there so you can't tell if it's fat or legit glute muscle.
I do find Rachel Ziegler and Zendaya to have more attractive bodies than the vast majority of brown women though. I still don't find them holistically attractive because they have brown skin, as well as facial structure, eye color, hair color, etc that is characteristic of brown people. But I am perfectly capable of admitting that if their skin was four or five shades lighter, and they had European facial bone structure, blue or green eyes, and naturally straight hair, I probably would find them fairly attractive. And not having a gigantic ass is a big part of that.
It hasn't happened very often, but I've met a handful of black chicks who were about 5'2, 115 lb, C cups, and a size 0 and thought to myself that she would be pretty hot if she was white.
Of course it's all deliberate.
Watch the people who watch people. An attractive woman can turn heads. Women just under ideal bodyfat% will get second looks. Put them in the same clothes as the obesity crowd, the tights and tanktops, and they'll get third and fourth looks, outright staring. The higher bodyfat% women... Not as much. Some. But only some.
Beyond being "pushed" though (which I'm sure is happening on at least some levels), there's also the element of implied mental state. Buffy the Vampire Slayer up there in picture 1 clearly takes care of herself. Her body signals independence. Which, I mean, is kinda the point of Buffy. Well-off men would like a woman who can entertain herself, who while devoted, is also an active agent in life. The picture group 2 women, by contrast, signal that they need help. They're NOT independent, they're a submissive caste, presenting an animalistic mating ritual in hopes of being bred by a dominant example (I don't care if they think it's not that, that is exactly what that is in every other species of animal). Men want what they can't have: In the 80s, that meant a woman who could actually take care of herself and not need her husband to be the title's namesake and literally husband her life. In the 2020s, that means the reverse, a woman who needs some (or a lot of) husbandry, directing her life in a more positive direction.
Or in other words, when society was sane and in-control, men wanted good women so they could keep interacting with the sane society without worry. With an insane society, men want a woman they can fix, so there's at least something they can feel they have a positive impact on in society.
Proliferation of pornography. Given the average age of exposure to it is something like eight years old now, it shouldn't be surprising the over-exaggerated forms have become the new "beauty" standard.
Somewhere around the mid 90s, Brazilian style exercise made it's way over here.
The kind that tones and firms the thighs and butt. And it makes it look appealing, at least to some.
So a lot of women went and put in the work. It got a boost with news, media and social media as well as the kardashians. (who totally didn't get work done by the way, everyone just gains 30 pounds in their ass and tits overnight if they think about it hard enough.) Another butterfy effect/OJ bystander if you ask me. Their father was part of the dream team of lawyers, Robert Kardashian. His kids quickly realized that fame and fortune felt nice.
There's been a huge stoppage of that on the leftist front however, with labeling exercise as right wing. Which is as laughable as it is stupid. They just make guys look like girls and girls look like guys and call it liberating.
No one is asking them to look like models, but oddly, a lot seem to want to fly in the face of beauty and just be ugly intentionally for reasons I have not yet discovered. hypothetically, ugly on the inside so ugly on the outside too? Makes it easier to manipulate if you just say the right words and anger the easily influenced into doing your bidding? I don't know. There's probably a series of books of info out there on why people do the things they do.
They'll do this to themselves and then have the nerve to say attractive people have it easy and resent not being that. Fucking morons, why'd you go and beat yourself with the ugly stick, if you know pretty means easy mode life?
Girl 1 in your second section looks like a BBL. Girl 2 is a bodybuilder, probably on abusive doses and on a bulk. Girl 3 is your standard fitness model.
If women put effort into themselves they will develop an ass pretty quickly, now there is somewhat more competition so instead of just being skinny but not really toned they have to be into fitness. The ones from the 80s and 90s weren't particularly fit or toned and tend not to age well but had connections or sucked off the right producer.
Look at where 2 of those 3 pics are.
It's at the gym and going running in tight pants. Even the kitchen one could easily be a fitness picture too (or an attempt at it given her attire, she's got a bit of a muffin top going on hanging over the tight pants).
It's fit not fat.
Nah, that's fat. Especially the one in the green tights in the gym. Just look at the ratio of upper to lower leg. That's either a freak of nature or landwhale territory, but certainly not muscle.
Forget ratio, look for definition*. That's a massive quad. Freak.
I reverse image searched just now, looks like I was right,, looks like it's Kiri Sokolsky/kirifitness_
Sure, looking like she's in a bulk phase when that photo was taken as compared to her cuts, and remembering that a woman's body fat % should be a bit higher with less definition, but I am right.
I will agree with that. It is freakish.
It's ugly. Don't care if it's muscle or fat.
It's fat. But even if it wasn't, setting aside entirely what it is or isn't, the point remains exactly the same. White girls did not used to look like that. Now they do. Why?
What it is is fundamental to the morals of it. Is it something hard to attain and which requires work and time for a fitness enthusiast? Or is it something any casual sloth and gluttony fan can get doing nothing.
You are dodging the question, and I highly suspect it's on purpose because you don't want to admit the answer. Throwing up a bullshit smokescreen that is non sequitur to the issue. Women in the 90s and before were just as capable of putting hard work and time as fitness enthusiasts, and did so more than they do now. And the end result wasn't an ass that takes up 1/4 of her body mass. The result was a body like the women in the first set of images. So, ignoring your irrelevant point about how much work it takes to look like a white Shaquanda, women 20 years ago didn't want to. Now they do. Why?
And the moral quality of a white woman trying to look like what black men find attractive is quite simple. It's absolute filth and degeneracy.
All this is in quite the contrast to your OP
It looks like you're already certain of the answer.
I'm not the one dodging anything, it's you being disingenuous. I'm rejecting the premise that they (your examples at least) are fat arsed. It's something else entirely, fitness. They don't share much except size.
Why do I think it is? I don't know. The whole thicc black and big booty latina influence might play a part. So might social media accelerating shifts like that, what once took centuries or decades is now only a generation. But then why wouldn't they just eat their way to that 'ideal' then? It's a million times easier. That's why I think something else is going on.
I am absolutely certain of the answer. But I am still curious about what other people think about it. So long as they actually answer the question that I asked instead of trying to waffle around because they don't want to say it out loud, or they have a vested interest in pretending the answer isn't what it is.
I will go out on a limb and make a guess. It is a guess, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I'm pretty confident that I'm right. I would be willing to bet that the real crux here is that you find the women in the second set of photos more attractive, and of course you have a negative emotional reaction to being told that you find fat women attractive, so you're trying to talk around the point. You can like what you like. But they are fat women. Just because it's not fat everywhere, does not mean those giant tumors at the top of their legs are not composed of adipose tissue. They absolutely are. Ever seen one of those women 'twerk'? Muscle tissue doesn't do that. It's fat. You like fat chicks. Okay, it's not a big deal. You are probably either brown yourself, or fairly young and you grew up in a culture that was brainwashing you into liking brown culture without even realizing it was happening. And now here you are being attracted to the same stuff that black men are attracted to. If you aren't black, you're not supposed to be. So if you're not black and you are, something was done to you to make that the case. Just as it was done to the white women to make them want to be that. But, I will admit it is just a guess on my part.
Not if I can help it, twerking is quite unattractive. Immediate drop. No class, no thanks.
Ok bud, sure, whatever you want to believe. Because that's a bodybuilder woman while not on a cut with massive quads. And that's your problem, you're not willing to admit that you're wrong, very few people like that. It's gotta be quite niche.
"so long as nobody actually disagrees with my conclusions or premises"
"You're either black or with my psychoanalysis, I conclude that you are compromised"
Maybe, just maybe, it's that you is wrong. But you already discounted that possibility:
And that's the real crux here.
Are you genuinely retarded? You posted an unflattering picture of a bikini model on an abusive cycle and genuinely think it is fat? She has ab definition in most of her posts.