I think it's been well been well established at this point that women (as much as women are worth anything in a combat situation) do okay at situations that involve holding steady, but are terrible at anything involving explosive action or quick decision making (or anything where their smaller size and inferior muscle mass are obvious disadvantages).
Bomber Pilot, Copter pilot, sure. There are probably enough capable men that it isn't necessary, but it isn't an explicitly terrible idea like making a woman a fighter pilot is. I'm pretty sure even male fighter pilots have to have excellent cardiovascular health to avoid readout, and they've got bigger hearts that pump more blood, and beat slower at rest.
I'm torn when it comes to women in combat. There's the obvious point that it lowers survivability of troops in general when women are present on the battlefield, but combat training is excellent at promotion of discipline and physical health, something we could all use a bit more of in this day and age. Maybe reserves only?
I'm torn when it comes to women in combat. There's the obvious point that it lowers survivability of troops in general when women are present on the battlefield, but combat training is excellent at promotion of discipline and physical health, something we could all use a bit more of in this day and age. Maybe reserves only?
The armed forces don't exist to promote discipline and physical health. They exist to win wars.
Combat units with women perform worse than units without women, therefore they should not be in combat roles. Let them sign up for a private boot camp if they're seeking discipline and improved physical health.
You're right, of course, but I still feel like the world would be a better place if everyone learned how to fight and got their ass kicked a couple times.
I agree, but it shouldn't be at the expense of tax payers. And let's face it, most women would quit as soon as they get punched once so it would be a huge waste of money.
Doesn't Isreal practice universal conscription (men and women)? Not signing up for a draft, but actually making them serve? There's precedent. And the haters on the Left AND the Right both say Isreal secretly controls everything, so they must have something going on properly to be that successful.
Better for men yes, more important is teaching the values of stoicism, dedication and self restraint with understanding violence. Plenty of men fight and learn nothing from it, there’s a reason every single great warrior society valued stoicism or the equivalent of it (hagakure). Could some women gain from this? Not really, concepts of self sacrifice are completely lost on a sex that’s only value historically has been surviving to breed.
I disagree. On the contrary I think it is more important for women to develop discipline in a focused manner as they seem far less inclined to do so by natural inclination, especially in times of peace. When times are hard women's behavior changes significantly.
The problem is that society stops treating them like adults when times are not hard.
No, even when times are hard the role difference has always been extremely present. Women aren’t the same as men, and by that difference what they are able to excel at has and always will be different then men. This idea that women receiving teaching in men’s diligence is the same stupidity that believes that men ditching stoicism will lead to a kinder society.
I don't think women learning how to fight would be a good idea at all. They already talk constantly about harming people for existing, don't give them the tools to back up their words.
I'd wager that its because they practice martial arts. They blown off whatever daddy issues they accumulate and get themselves tuckered out as a result.
I had an ex who was a regional BJJ champ but really only trained with other girls.
I don't compete at all, suck technically, but I was able to demolish her in spars unless she pulled off a stroke. Even when she got a hold I could power through them in a way here usual opponents jest couldn't
She hated it but admitted it was a net positive experience because it taught her jest hire different we were built
Not only that, but the idea of women being worth just as much (read: the same) as men goes out the window the second they start dying in the field, or get captured. Sending women into wars when you have an alternative is like going neck first.
I've seen stereotypes of steely resolve and such bullshit, some nonsense about being better at spatial thinking etc, but I'm pretty sure it's just a fem wet dream of superiority.
You can thank Heinlein for the spatial thinking bs. It's not based on science but entered the zeitgeist after he and a bunch of copycats used it as a trope to justify having women in space
Which is funny because spatial thinking seems to be where women struggle the most when driving. If you ever see a car not going with the flow of traffic and kinda sitting in no-man's land being passed on both sides...
...it's usually a woman in my experience. Or someone on the phone. Phones are the worst, too.
Sometimes its some 80 year old who REALLY should have quit driving when she stoped being able to do the crossword puzzle three years ago because she couldn't see the little boxes, but she's totally capable of moving a few tons of steel at 60 mph amongst other flying metal boxes because retesting the elderly is abusive.
I've seen stereotypes of steely resolve and such bullshit
I'm willing to bet that stems from a misreading of a panic response that seems to be more common in women. Everything points to a much higher proportion of women's response to a critical situation is to first just straight up freeze for a few moments, then make the same poorly thought out panic choice someone else might have made immediately, just in a less timely fashion.
It'd be easy to interpret that first part as taking time to calculate a response, if you just ignore the outcomes of the second part being worse not better.
Just look at all the shootings by female cops, waaay too many of them start with them standing around doing nothing whilst their male partner reacts first, then they pull their gun because things got out of hand whilst they did nothing to help the non-lethal response stick, and in the panic turn to lethal force. Or in one tragicomic version, stand around doing nothing, finally decide to take non-lethal action, but panic and accidentally draw and shoot her firearm instead.
It was actually Heinlein that started that particular myth, that women made better pilots than men.
At the time, there might have been a whiff of plausibility to it. Remember, one of the most accomplished (lunatic) test pilots of the time was Hanna Reitsch, who by all accounts was a savant at piloting under extreme conditions (she once flew a helicopter indoors).
I heard it's because they are shorter, and since the heart-brain distance is shorter they can deal with higher G forces.
Haven't confirmed if that's actually true. Though even if it is; not passing out as easily during some manouvers seems to be at best just one of many aspects that makes a pilot good.
Or maybe we have enough pride as a society to tell women No when it comes to places they are not only not capable for, but an active hindrance.
Its been shown time and time again that adding a woman to any squad fucks up cohesion badly, almost out of pure instinct, coupled with the fact that a huge majority of them are fucking their way up the chain, getting pregnant to abuse that loophole, or diversity passed like this woman.
So by allowing them in at all we are saying that Women's Egos are more important than soldiers lives and capabilities.
I'm not necessarily fully against women in the miltary either. Combat? Well depends on the situation. A woman pilot doesn't bug me as much as deployed in the trenches as the way I see it they are less likely to cause issues with fraternization or whatever there.
The big issue here is the pussy pass. She was promoted to a position she had not earned. It's not just a reward for being the best that gets these pilots in the fighters, it's because it takes that high level of ability to do the job. I hadn't actually heard about this crash surprisingly enough, but I did some research and she didn't follow the checklist and made the problem worse. Sure, it's hard to criticize in an emergency, but if you go do any pilot training emergency procedures are drilled in very early. This even applies to puttering around in little single engine prop planes. The whole point is to get you thinking with your head when something goes wrong. Something like an emergency on landing is a time when the plane is very sensitive and freaking and making aggressive inputs is a quick way to spin yourself into the ground. Perhaps the pilot that had earned that spot would have not gotten into this situation to begin with, maybe they would have remembered and followed the checklist (they would have had to memorize this stuff in training), or maybe they also would have crashed and died. There's no way to know. But when you promote someone that didn't earn it, you open up for questions.
A fellow F-14 pilot would later say that "the treatment [Hultgreen] received after her death has always stayed with me as one of the greatest injustices witnessed during my naval career," and that her squadron's executive officer crashed in a flight simulator 97% of the time when faced with similar problems.
Yeah, it's not the fact that she crashed when faced with those problems, It's that she caused herself to have those problems with a poor performance and reaction to that performance. I know it can be very difficult to recover from a flat spin, which is why you aren't supposed to cause one in the first place.
I can't help but laugh derisively at the guy who said the truth about them pushing women ahead despite of qualification, then tried to say that was a lie, only to admit it when people started testifying.
An Accuracy in Media article quotes CDR Tom Sobiek, commanding officer of Fighter Squadron VF-124, as saying of the four female pilots in his squadron, "The women are going to graduate regardless of how they performed" and "the Navy was in a race with the Air Force to get the first female fighter pilot". It quotes Sobiek denying making any such statement. "That is a flat [ass] lie," he said. "And whoever told you that, if they were under oath, should be taken to task."[11] Several of the instructors, however, testified to the contrary. During a subsequent interview with Mike Wallace of CBS "60 Minutes," Sobiek finally admitted that he had made statements that may have conveyed the impression that the women would not be allowed to fail. He added that some female pilots were advanced in combat aviation ahead of many men who were kept waiting or forced to resign.
Great video. Today I learned that F-14 Tom Cats were notoriously difficult to land. Who knew the NES version of Top Gun was a simulation of the real thing!
Affirmative action means less qualified individuals are given jobs they don't deserve in basically every format you can mandate it.
People miss the secondary implication here, though: If an ablebodied straight white male gets through affirmative action, he's SUPER qualified. Qualified beyond the ability for the SJWs in HR to veto.
Or in other words, in places where affirmative action is rampant, you can quickly and safely assume white men are de-facto the most competent and skilled people. If they weren't, they would have been replaced for diversity hires, affirmative actions. They're safe to fire, and the hiring manager often has financial incentives tied to "diversity" (such as bonus targets with hiring diversity quotas), meaning it would GAIN them money doing so. If it would gain you money to fire someone, and you don't, that says something about that person's competence.
We all know affirmative action means hiring less qualified people in order to check the boxes, that it can be rough on diversity-qualifying hires as they don't know if they're there for their talent or merely the color of their cooch, but no one really voices the logical conclusion to other side of that coin.
"Shit, women can't fly these? We better destroy them all and create a plane that can be piloted by a small child...even that might be too challenging for them though."
Her call signs were "Hulk" or "She-Hulk", for her ability to bench press 200 pounds (91 kg), her 5 ft 10 in (1.78 m) frame,[1] and a play on her surname.
ngl that's pretty funny
During a subsequent interview with Mike Wallace of CBS "60 Minutes," Sobiek finally admitted that he had made statements that may have conveyed the impression that the women would not be allowed to fail. He added that some female pilots were advanced in combat aviation ahead of many men who were kept waiting or forced to resign.
And there it is. They knew for a fact that they had numerous better pilots who were males, whose careers they forcibly stalled or killed, just so that they could get some women in to please some worthless politicians.
They sent in a woman they knew to be underqualified and hoped for the best. They got her killed.
But they're equal to men, and that's why they need an unfair advantage to get hired when it literally costs lives.... Bridge engineer in Florida comes to mind. Anyway it's for equality BiGoTs
She had multiple poor traps and failed to follow LSO commands previously, to the point a male pilot would have at least gotten in the shit.
She mismanaged the approach and wave off and killed herself and nearly her RIO.
A male pilot would never have been allowed to to keep fucking up and stay flying.
The most useful part of him was the tumor.
I think it's been well been well established at this point that women (as much as women are worth anything in a combat situation) do okay at situations that involve holding steady, but are terrible at anything involving explosive action or quick decision making (or anything where their smaller size and inferior muscle mass are obvious disadvantages).
Bomber Pilot, Copter pilot, sure. There are probably enough capable men that it isn't necessary, but it isn't an explicitly terrible idea like making a woman a fighter pilot is. I'm pretty sure even male fighter pilots have to have excellent cardiovascular health to avoid readout, and they've got bigger hearts that pump more blood, and beat slower at rest.
I'm torn when it comes to women in combat. There's the obvious point that it lowers survivability of troops in general when women are present on the battlefield, but combat training is excellent at promotion of discipline and physical health, something we could all use a bit more of in this day and age. Maybe reserves only?
The armed forces don't exist to promote discipline and physical health. They exist to win wars.
Combat units with women perform worse than units without women, therefore they should not be in combat roles. Let them sign up for a private boot camp if they're seeking discipline and improved physical health.
You're right, of course, but I still feel like the world would be a better place if everyone learned how to fight and got their ass kicked a couple times.
I agree, but it shouldn't be at the expense of tax payers. And let's face it, most women would quit as soon as they get punched once so it would be a huge waste of money.
Doesn't Isreal practice universal conscription (men and women)? Not signing up for a draft, but actually making them serve? There's precedent. And the haters on the Left AND the Right both say Isreal secretly controls everything, so they must have something going on properly to be that successful.
Women are not allowed to serve in certain roles in the Israeli army though.
And it's not like they've taken part in a full out war that women played a big part in.
We have ample evidence that proves that mixed combat units do much worse than all male combat units.
Better for men yes, more important is teaching the values of stoicism, dedication and self restraint with understanding violence. Plenty of men fight and learn nothing from it, there’s a reason every single great warrior society valued stoicism or the equivalent of it (hagakure). Could some women gain from this? Not really, concepts of self sacrifice are completely lost on a sex that’s only value historically has been surviving to breed.
I disagree. On the contrary I think it is more important for women to develop discipline in a focused manner as they seem far less inclined to do so by natural inclination, especially in times of peace. When times are hard women's behavior changes significantly.
The problem is that society stops treating them like adults when times are not hard.
No, even when times are hard the role difference has always been extremely present. Women aren’t the same as men, and by that difference what they are able to excel at has and always will be different then men. This idea that women receiving teaching in men’s diligence is the same stupidity that believes that men ditching stoicism will lead to a kinder society.
I don't think women learning how to fight would be a good idea at all. They already talk constantly about harming people for existing, don't give them the tools to back up their words.
The most non talky non bitchy women I know are those that trained a martial art with men.
I sometimes wonder if this is because they know just how hard men can actually hit when they care to.
I'd wager that its because they practice martial arts. They blown off whatever daddy issues they accumulate and get themselves tuckered out as a result.
That's probably a vastly more accurate read.
I think it's exactly why. It's a reality check.
I had an ex who was a regional BJJ champ but really only trained with other girls.
I don't compete at all, suck technically, but I was able to demolish her in spars unless she pulled off a stroke. Even when she got a hold I could power through them in a way here usual opponents jest couldn't
She hated it but admitted it was a net positive experience because it taught her jest hire different we were built
Not only that, but the idea of women being worth just as much (read: the same) as men goes out the window the second they start dying in the field, or get captured. Sending women into wars when you have an alternative is like going neck first.
I've seen stereotypes of steely resolve and such bullshit, some nonsense about being better at spatial thinking etc, but I'm pretty sure it's just a fem wet dream of superiority.
You can thank Heinlein for the spatial thinking bs. It's not based on science but entered the zeitgeist after he and a bunch of copycats used it as a trope to justify having women in space
I haven't read starship troopers in so long I'd plum forgotten
He also said the main reason was the morale boost.
No one ever told my sister that girls are better at spatial thinking when she drives.
Which is funny because spatial thinking seems to be where women struggle the most when driving. If you ever see a car not going with the flow of traffic and kinda sitting in no-man's land being passed on both sides...
...it's usually a woman in my experience. Or someone on the phone. Phones are the worst, too.
I would hope you're not checking Twitter in a fighter jet, though.
I can see what a woman's cockpit would look like now...
https://i.imgur.com/hER8ysd.png
Sometimes its some 80 year old who REALLY should have quit driving when she stoped being able to do the crossword puzzle three years ago because she couldn't see the little boxes, but she's totally capable of moving a few tons of steel at 60 mph amongst other flying metal boxes because retesting the elderly is abusive.
Don't make me laugh
You just try and stop me!
God damn it lol
I'm willing to bet that stems from a misreading of a panic response that seems to be more common in women. Everything points to a much higher proportion of women's response to a critical situation is to first just straight up freeze for a few moments, then make the same poorly thought out panic choice someone else might have made immediately, just in a less timely fashion.
It'd be easy to interpret that first part as taking time to calculate a response, if you just ignore the outcomes of the second part being worse not better.
Just look at all the shootings by female cops, waaay too many of them start with them standing around doing nothing whilst their male partner reacts first, then they pull their gun because things got out of hand whilst they did nothing to help the non-lethal response stick, and in the panic turn to lethal force. Or in one tragicomic version, stand around doing nothing, finally decide to take non-lethal action, but panic and accidentally draw and shoot her firearm instead.
It was actually Heinlein that started that particular myth, that women made better pilots than men.
At the time, there might have been a whiff of plausibility to it. Remember, one of the most accomplished (lunatic) test pilots of the time was Hanna Reitsch, who by all accounts was a savant at piloting under extreme conditions (she once flew a helicopter indoors).
Several times I believe, in a packed venue no less.
There's also the rumor that she once flew a modified V-1 to settle some concerns about its stability.
I heard it's because they are shorter, and since the heart-brain distance is shorter they can deal with higher G forces.
Haven't confirmed if that's actually true. Though even if it is; not passing out as easily during some manouvers seems to be at best just one of many aspects that makes a pilot good.
If that's the case that sounds like an argument for shorter male fighter pilots.
Or maybe we have enough pride as a society to tell women No when it comes to places they are not only not capable for, but an active hindrance.
Its been shown time and time again that adding a woman to any squad fucks up cohesion badly, almost out of pure instinct, coupled with the fact that a huge majority of them are fucking their way up the chain, getting pregnant to abuse that loophole, or diversity passed like this woman.
So by allowing them in at all we are saying that Women's Egos are more important than soldiers lives and capabilities.
I'm not necessarily fully against women in the miltary either. Combat? Well depends on the situation. A woman pilot doesn't bug me as much as deployed in the trenches as the way I see it they are less likely to cause issues with fraternization or whatever there.
The big issue here is the pussy pass. She was promoted to a position she had not earned. It's not just a reward for being the best that gets these pilots in the fighters, it's because it takes that high level of ability to do the job. I hadn't actually heard about this crash surprisingly enough, but I did some research and she didn't follow the checklist and made the problem worse. Sure, it's hard to criticize in an emergency, but if you go do any pilot training emergency procedures are drilled in very early. This even applies to puttering around in little single engine prop planes. The whole point is to get you thinking with your head when something goes wrong. Something like an emergency on landing is a time when the plane is very sensitive and freaking and making aggressive inputs is a quick way to spin yourself into the ground. Perhaps the pilot that had earned that spot would have not gotten into this situation to begin with, maybe they would have remembered and followed the checklist (they would have had to memorize this stuff in training), or maybe they also would have crashed and died. There's no way to know. But when you promote someone that didn't earn it, you open up for questions.
Yeah, it's not the fact that she crashed when faced with those problems, It's that she caused herself to have those problems with a poor performance and reaction to that performance. I know it can be very difficult to recover from a flat spin, which is why you aren't supposed to cause one in the first place.
I can't help but laugh derisively at the guy who said the truth about them pushing women ahead despite of qualification, then tried to say that was a lie, only to admit it when people started testifying.
Imagine being fired so that your country's armed forces could help a woman commit the most expensive suicide ever.
Ward Carroll (author and former Tomcat pilot) has a video up on YouTube that I think is pretty good:
“The Real Truth About Kara Hultgreen's F-14 Tomcat Mishap”
He talks about exactly what happened (a compressor stall) and how it should have been handled versus how it was handled, among other issues…
Great video. Today I learned that F-14 Tom Cats were notoriously difficult to land. Who knew the NES version of Top Gun was a simulation of the real thing!
Waste of a good plane
Few years later they shredded them all into very small pieces.
RIP: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y45rzmDaABI
They destroyed them? I thought most retired things went into storage. Isn't there a famous airplane "graveyard" in the Nevada desert?
Destroyed them so Iran couldn’t get spare parts.
Get a load of this fucking logic.
Also https://hushkit.net/2020/02/27/flying-fighting-in-the-f-14-tomcat-interview-with-an-iranian-fighter-ace/
They destroyed them completely.
those airplane graveyards are specifically for a treaty iirc
Do you know what they call the student who graduated bottom of his class in medical school?
Doctor.
Affirmative action hiring means you would be insane to choose a doctor or surgeon without looking at their race.
Affirmative action means less qualified individuals are given jobs they don't deserve in basically every format you can mandate it.
People miss the secondary implication here, though: If an ablebodied straight white male gets through affirmative action, he's SUPER qualified. Qualified beyond the ability for the SJWs in HR to veto.
Or in other words, in places where affirmative action is rampant, you can quickly and safely assume white men are de-facto the most competent and skilled people. If they weren't, they would have been replaced for diversity hires, affirmative actions. They're safe to fire, and the hiring manager often has financial incentives tied to "diversity" (such as bonus targets with hiring diversity quotas), meaning it would GAIN them money doing so. If it would gain you money to fire someone, and you don't, that says something about that person's competence.
We all know affirmative action means hiring less qualified people in order to check the boxes, that it can be rough on diversity-qualifying hires as they don't know if they're there for their talent or merely the color of their cooch, but no one really voices the logical conclusion to other side of that coin.
Is this a pussy pass denied, or accepted? She got in, but faced the consequences.
Pass accepted, but rejected on appeal by the laws of physics.
Teeheeeee
I'd say 50/50
The natural world does not offer a pussy pass. Females are not exempt from the laws of physics.
Give them time, they'll somehow find a way.
Each one of the planes she flew cost $40 million. Couldn't they have given her something cheaper?
They completely destroyed these planes and all their parts soon afterwards. https://youtube.com/watch?v=7uUgeePD5ro
"Shit, women can't fly these? We better destroy them all and create a plane that can be piloted by a small child...even that might be too challenging for them though."
They were always fickle, male pilots fucked up to.
ngl that's pretty funny
And there it is. They knew for a fact that they had numerous better pilots who were males, whose careers they forcibly stalled or killed, just so that they could get some women in to please some worthless politicians.
They sent in a woman they knew to be underqualified and hoped for the best. They got her killed.
So this bodes well for United Airlines new diversity program?
Commies love killing people, so yes.
But they're equal to men, and that's why they need an unfair advantage to get hired when it literally costs lives.... Bridge engineer in Florida comes to mind. Anyway it's for equality BiGoTs
Muh patriarchy killed er!
Well, at least the problem sorted itself out.
Added an update to the first paragraph, let's see how long it lasts.
Gravity doesn't believe in social justice.
What is.. Results from a cartoon recruiting ad?