It reminds me of some widely hated anime (Tesla Note, EX-ARM) that tried to do 3D models on 2D backgrounds. Both of those anime are among some of the most hated anime ever.
Kimura Yoshikatsu is actually a competent director, my guy just thought if he used mo-cap for everything, it would look like a live action film and he could save lots of money
The problem is in the key-framing and scene compositions.
As others in the thread said, they assume making the characters 3D and cel-shaded with some light mo-cap and traditional 3D animation will save them tons of money and people will just accept it. They were only right about one of those things, saving tons of money.
ARC System Works showed that it takes more than just 3D cel-shading to get 3D to move like anime (with many people still shocked to learn that the GranBlue and Guilty Gear Strive games are in 3D and not 2D hand-drawn games), and it's all in key-frame animation, or rather how those key-frames are composited.
Most studios don't take the time to do this, though, because they just think designing 2D characters as 3D models and using lazy fill-frame animations between key-frames is enough to convince people it's the same thing, but it's not, and some studios have had to learn this the hard way.
I still think 3D models is the cheaper and more efficient way of designing characters and interactables within the frame, but you actually need a good animation director to make it convincing and smooth so it properly imitates what people actually enjoy about cell-based hand-drawn 2D images.
That’s even when they fucking move around AT ALL. Even my girl laughed when I trjed record of ragnarok once. Like indie game cutscene tier shows right now
I'm not entirely opposed to the technology. It can be done well, just look at some Guilty Gear Xrd gameplay. But on the whole, I've rarely seen an anime studio use it and not have it stand out like a sore thumb.
Off the top of my head all these shows are animated the same way:
Invincible
Castlevania
the Tomb raider show
Korra
Even real anime is affected. The Evangelion rebuilds look so much worse than the original. Shinichiro Watanabe's new show Lazarus is doing its best, but unfortunately it's also a downgrade compared to Cowboy Bebop.
I don't know if this is a question of budget, time, technique, or something else.
I don't know if this is a question of budget, time, technique, or something else.
Almost certainly technique, and mindset. Because it's very competent, it's just missing something.
Someone linked episode one of the 2007 Madhouse DMC, and it just has so much more personality, even in crappy Twitter resolution.
Also, totally different genre, but just to show a recent example, I was really impressed by the art of Kowloon Generic Romance. Now there's some personality. Even if a bunch of it is just nostalgia baiting, it still looks absolutely amazing.
The same madhouse that did the first season of one punch?
Which is also a good example that just having decent artists doesn't mean something will look good, with how jank season 2 of that was there was some episodes that, if i remember right, there was a different director heading those particular episodes or certain fight scenes or something like that and it was noticeably better than other parts of that season.
The most obvious flaw compared to the original is the modeling of Unit 01 in dark scenes. The rebuild version has green panels that glow like a plastic toy for some unknowable reason and obscure all kinds of detail.
In general, the digital coloring and modeling is washed out, too smooth and uncomplicated, and lacks character. On both the people and Evas. Several neat little Eva interactions with the environment are also changed, mostly to their detriment.
Honestly, if that's the only reason then its a fine one. But let's not pretend that isn't waifuism instead of a mark of quality.
It does show you have a low bar for waifus though, as she is deliberately designed that way and is the only non-malicious part of the Rebuilds. As in, she was literally Anno simping for his own fucking wife and making her the "canon winner" of the series.
Shinji ended Evangelion finally doing one great thing (making a choice to return to his flawed individuality and connect with people the difficult, meaningful way)
Shinji's first meaningful action in the rebuilds is monumentally screwing up everything, gets cucked from Asuka by some other dude, continues screwing up, denied comfort from Rei, who becomes a living doll ("how dare you have feelings for her!!" -- Anno)
Shinji fails upward into relationship with a living anime figurine, touches grass somehow, end scene
Not to mention the magical realism/space opera arc with Captain Misato of the USS Whale Zoid, Pirate Asuka, and Elton Kaworu is an insult to anyone who took Evangelion as a real story and not just a psychodrama for otaku therapy purposes.
Shinji ended Evangelion finally doing one great thing
The fact that to this day people still treat the end of EoE as this incomprehensible puzzle shows how fucking stupid most of them are.
Just like the entire rest of the series, half of what is happening is meaningless words and references meant to look cool (like why Angels have blue blood type being a random Japanese movie from the 70s), and the rest is pretty easy to figure out what its getting at.
Its literally a culmination of the message of the entire series, that they repeat so often its comical. Hedgehogs can't huddle for warmth without hurting themselves, but they do it anyway because its better than running away from the pain forever.
On top of what Shadow said, Anno was interviewed multiple times over the years saying he hated Eva, hated his fans, and generally hated everything about his life/career before he hit it big in the 00s. And even then he resented being known as the Eva guy.
Numerous parts of the Rebuild is deliberately designed to "subvert expectations" in the worst way. The entire writing of Asuka specifically was one of them, as was the ending using his "OC of his literal wife" as the winner of a 30 year waifu debate.
Completely divorced of its outside context pieces, its just a generic mecha series. Which makes it all the more apparent that Anno's entire goal with it was to shit on the original instead of either directly adapt with a bigger budget or create something with new ideas using his new outlooks on life.
It's too clean, and absolutely falls to pieces during some action, due to all the CGI. It's like the worst of both worlds; competent but uninteresting animation, with a shit ton of CGI. Bleh.
I'm not even a big stickler when it comes to animation, but this is just so off-putting. I'd legitimately actually rather it be sort of bad than just uninspired. A less well-executed, less highly produced, but more passionate and less political project would be infinitely more enjoyable.
A lot of it is a 2D filter applied to 3D models, from the look of them. They're just too perfect in maintaining the coherence of the characters' form that it sinks into the uncanny valley.
I still remember while Naruto was airing, and people loved posting still frames of deformed characters. Yet in animation it actually conveys much more to the viewer than a consistent model will ever be able to.
I guess if you want something less flippant, it comes off like they took the look of those DC animated movies that were fairly popular and then changed some stuff to try to look more “anime.” So… corporate trend-chasing? Unless you’re also including the DC stuff as an example.
I don't know what the recent DCEU movies look like, but the stuff they put out 20 years ago, like Batman Beyond, was way more fluid and artistic than this. I believe the tips in this thread about 2D filters over 3D models.
Wow, someone linked this Netflix DMC clip as an example of a good scene.
It makes the link in OP look brilliant. How on Earth do you fuck up that bad, and how can anyone think that looks good? If you've watched even a single episode of any half decent anime, the atrocious CGI here will pull you right out and sicken you on a spiritual level.
This is a big production, and this is what they bring? Astonishing.
How low are peoples' standards? Damn! The textures have got to be the most offensive part. It's just screaming 3D/CGI the entire time, and looks awful. I'm actually offended.
That's actually one of the best examples netflix could put forward and it doesn't look so bad. THey've been getting better.
Compared to a student film project? Yeah sure. Compared to good animation? This isn't even worth scraping off the bottom of an Evangelion's shoe. The rotation shot as he's running is terrible and pointless, and there's no impact frames when he stabs demons, so the models look like janky cardboard in motion.
Another problem, and the thing I find most annoying, is that there's very little room for improvement. This is an assembly line product.
It's not just one. It's dozens. Slow animation, janky camera, over 3D assets. Essentially clip art. It's not even homemade 3D models like you'd get at a Dreamworks. There's an actual anime called Kingdom, that when it's in 2D mode, pretty decent. The 3D mode for most of the battle scenes. Awful. You can see the textures stretched and failing on their faces. Every puppet moves like it's swimming in butter.
Netflix funded a whole production generation of this shit.
Weird but true, it's probably edited in Flash, and they're using rendered backgrounds with painted in effects to make it look animated.
Dragon Prince or whatever it's named is the biggest culprit, but you see it all the time. I had to explain it to my wife when she got weirded out by the cows in Mystery Incorporated.
This is all time savers from trying to have consistency frame by frame. What's really weird is that most of the AI animations look like that, even when they're not supposed to.
yeah. Netflix.
Most of the 'Netflix' funded anime is made with 3D models. It's ultra slop. They move around like mannequins
Please stop calling it "anime" just because it mimics the look. This is a Western production.
Don't dilute the meaning of the word for these imposters. It's just animation, not "anime."
Return to tradition, bring back Japanimation.
Good point. I'll just call it animation/slop
It reminds me of some widely hated anime (Tesla Note, EX-ARM) that tried to do 3D models on 2D backgrounds. Both of those anime are among some of the most hated anime ever.
i had just started reading the manga and i was excited to see ex-arm
imagine my shock when it came out
Was the Manga any good?
i liked what i'd read so far. unfortunately the guy translating it wandered off shortly before the show started so i haven't read any since.
Kimura Yoshikatsu is actually a competent director, my guy just thought if he used mo-cap for everything, it would look like a live action film and he could save lots of money
The problem is in the key-framing and scene compositions.
As others in the thread said, they assume making the characters 3D and cel-shaded with some light mo-cap and traditional 3D animation will save them tons of money and people will just accept it. They were only right about one of those things, saving tons of money.
ARC System Works showed that it takes more than just 3D cel-shading to get 3D to move like anime (with many people still shocked to learn that the GranBlue and Guilty Gear Strive games are in 3D and not 2D hand-drawn games), and it's all in key-frame animation, or rather how those key-frames are composited.
Most studios don't take the time to do this, though, because they just think designing 2D characters as 3D models and using lazy fill-frame animations between key-frames is enough to convince people it's the same thing, but it's not, and some studios have had to learn this the hard way.
I still think 3D models is the cheaper and more efficient way of designing characters and interactables within the frame, but you actually need a good animation director to make it convincing and smooth so it properly imitates what people actually enjoy about cell-based hand-drawn 2D images.
Berserk... look how they massacred my boy.
That’s even when they fucking move around AT ALL. Even my girl laughed when I trjed record of ragnarok once. Like indie game cutscene tier shows right now
I'm not entirely opposed to the technology. It can be done well, just look at some Guilty Gear Xrd gameplay. But on the whole, I've rarely seen an anime studio use it and not have it stand out like a sore thumb.
Off the top of my head all these shows are animated the same way:
Even real anime is affected. The Evangelion rebuilds look so much worse than the original. Shinichiro Watanabe's new show Lazarus is doing its best, but unfortunately it's also a downgrade compared to Cowboy Bebop.
I don't know if this is a question of budget, time, technique, or something else.
Almost certainly technique, and mindset. Because it's very competent, it's just missing something.
Someone linked episode one of the 2007 Madhouse DMC, and it just has so much more personality, even in crappy Twitter resolution.
Also, totally different genre, but just to show a recent example, I was really impressed by the art of Kowloon Generic Romance. Now there's some personality. Even if a bunch of it is just nostalgia baiting, it still looks absolutely amazing.
The same madhouse that did the first season of one punch?
Which is also a good example that just having decent artists doesn't mean something will look good, with how jank season 2 of that was there was some episodes that, if i remember right, there was a different director heading those particular episodes or certain fight scenes or something like that and it was noticeably better than other parts of that season.
Yeah, wasn't trying to say everything is great, just differentiating from Netflix DMC.
Also, looked it up, looks like Madhouse did OPM S1, J.C.Staff was S2. Who actually also do some great work, but I guess not consistently.
Sovless
What do you find wrong with the evangelion rebuilds, animation-wise?
The most obvious flaw compared to the original is the modeling of Unit 01 in dark scenes. The rebuild version has green panels that glow like a plastic toy for some unknowable reason and obscure all kinds of detail.
In general, the digital coloring and modeling is washed out, too smooth and uncomplicated, and lacks character. On both the people and Evas. Several neat little Eva interactions with the environment are also changed, mostly to their detriment.
You’re tripping on the rebuilds. Those were legit
If by legit you mean legitimately made as a middle finger to all prior fans, then yes they were very legit.
They are the sequel trilogy of anime.
If someone simps for the rebuilds, I assume they're a Mari fan.
Honestly, if that's the only reason then its a fine one. But let's not pretend that isn't waifuism instead of a mark of quality.
It does show you have a low bar for waifus though, as she is deliberately designed that way and is the only non-malicious part of the Rebuilds. As in, she was literally Anno simping for his own fucking wife and making her the "canon winner" of the series.
Don't let EvaGeeks see this.
While I agree the TV series is superior, I've seen some pretty impassioned defenses of the Rebuilds there.
No defense of it will make up for the fact that it was made with spite to the very people and IP that made Anno famous.
Its literally the Joker 2 of anime, except instead of a single bad movie everyone mocked it was a 10 year quadrilogy that a bunch of tourists defend.
But how was it spiteful?
Not to mention the magical realism/space opera arc with Captain Misato of the USS Whale Zoid, Pirate Asuka, and Elton Kaworu is an insult to anyone who took Evangelion as a real story and not just a psychodrama for otaku therapy purposes.
The fact that to this day people still treat the end of EoE as this incomprehensible puzzle shows how fucking stupid most of them are.
Just like the entire rest of the series, half of what is happening is meaningless words and references meant to look cool (like why Angels have blue blood type being a random Japanese movie from the 70s), and the rest is pretty easy to figure out what its getting at.
Its literally a culmination of the message of the entire series, that they repeat so often its comical. Hedgehogs can't huddle for warmth without hurting themselves, but they do it anyway because its better than running away from the pain forever.
On top of what Shadow said, Anno was interviewed multiple times over the years saying he hated Eva, hated his fans, and generally hated everything about his life/career before he hit it big in the 00s. And even then he resented being known as the Eva guy.
Numerous parts of the Rebuild is deliberately designed to "subvert expectations" in the worst way. The entire writing of Asuka specifically was one of them, as was the ending using his "OC of his literal wife" as the winner of a 30 year waifu debate.
Completely divorced of its outside context pieces, its just a generic mecha series. Which makes it all the more apparent that Anno's entire goal with it was to shit on the original instead of either directly adapt with a bigger budget or create something with new ideas using his new outlooks on life.
Castlevania looked better than this.
It is also a sort of vintage Western animation style with modern influence (ofc from Japan). It's just better.
I blame RWBY. They started it.
Did they really? That would be hilarious
I don't watch Netflix, but if this is the style you're referring to, I'd call it
"MACHINIME"
Since it's basically machinima masquerading as anime:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/machinima
I think so yeah, it's the earliest example of this garbage that I can recall.
Ignoring the crappy story or writing.. i dislike this kinda style. Its too clean. Its like modern simpsons.. its just meh.
It's too clean, and absolutely falls to pieces during some action, due to all the CGI. It's like the worst of both worlds; competent but uninteresting animation, with a shit ton of CGI. Bleh.
I'm not even a big stickler when it comes to animation, but this is just so off-putting. I'd legitimately actually rather it be sort of bad than just uninspired. A less well-executed, less highly produced, but more passionate and less political project would be infinitely more enjoyable.
A lot of it is a 2D filter applied to 3D models, from the look of them. They're just too perfect in maintaining the coherence of the characters' form that it sinks into the uncanny valley.
I still remember while Naruto was airing, and people loved posting still frames of deformed characters. Yet in animation it actually conveys much more to the viewer than a consistent model will ever be able to.
Yeah, so it looks like 90s Ninja Turtles except computerized. Computer mimicry of that.
Wait, they got the guy that voices Nero to voice Dante??? Wtf will they do if they introduce Nero?! What an idiotic problem to make for yourself.
I think you nailed it with “grabage.”
I guess if you want something less flippant, it comes off like they took the look of those DC animated movies that were fairly popular and then changed some stuff to try to look more “anime.” So… corporate trend-chasing? Unless you’re also including the DC stuff as an example.
I don't know what the recent DCEU movies look like, but the stuff they put out 20 years ago, like Batman Beyond, was way more fluid and artistic than this. I believe the tips in this thread about 2D filters over 3D models.
Wow, someone linked this Netflix DMC clip as an example of a good scene.
It makes the link in OP look brilliant. How on Earth do you fuck up that bad, and how can anyone think that looks good? If you've watched even a single episode of any half decent anime, the atrocious CGI here will pull you right out and sicken you on a spiritual level.
This is a big production, and this is what they bring? Astonishing.
How low are peoples' standards? Damn! The textures have got to be the most offensive part. It's just screaming 3D/CGI the entire time, and looks awful. I'm actually offended.
Generic? Its not bad (to me, who doesn't spend a lot of time watching anime) but it doesn't have much of a style compared with similar media.
Compared to a student film project? Yeah sure. Compared to good animation? This isn't even worth scraping off the bottom of an Evangelion's shoe. The rotation shot as he's running is terrible and pointless, and there's no impact frames when he stabs demons, so the models look like janky cardboard in motion.
Another problem, and the thing I find most annoying, is that there's very little room for improvement. This is an assembly line product.
It's not just one. It's dozens. Slow animation, janky camera, over 3D assets. Essentially clip art. It's not even homemade 3D models like you'd get at a Dreamworks. There's an actual anime called Kingdom, that when it's in 2D mode, pretty decent. The 3D mode for most of the battle scenes. Awful. You can see the textures stretched and failing on their faces. Every puppet moves like it's swimming in butter.
Netflix funded a whole production generation of this shit.
No no. Chill out. I've watched all of Kingdom. I like it. I was just using it as an easy to find example of terrible 3D assets.
Reminds me of the trash saturday morning cartoons from my childhood.
Weird but true, it's probably edited in Flash, and they're using rendered backgrounds with painted in effects to make it look animated.
Dragon Prince or whatever it's named is the biggest culprit, but you see it all the time. I had to explain it to my wife when she got weirded out by the cows in Mystery Incorporated.
This is all time savers from trying to have consistency frame by frame. What's really weird is that most of the AI animations look like that, even when they're not supposed to.
Western Anime-styled 3dCG-converted-to-2d cartoons.