Tolkien had the life experience of WW1 and that bled into his work. Life experiences GREATLY improve on artistic works and living through that hell hold would.
Linking to Reddit's MenWritingWomen, where any expression of masculine sexuality is "ew gross"? Really?
GRRM is a big ole working-class 1950s New Jersey style leftist, and he always has been. He's a "superfan" comic dork. He always has been. And yeah, he's a horny old dude. Always has been.
If you don't like his work, if you find it negative, repulsive, abhorrent, or even boring, that's fine. I'm a GRRM reader from many years before the TV show, and I'm a Tolkien reader from many years before that. I like them both. You don't have to.
This attack on GRRM because you don't like the way he looks is "mean girl laugh at the incel" bullshit.
It reaks of the nojoy feminazis who have been clutching their pearls since the TV show came out.
anything that men enjoy is evil and bad and you should be imprisoned for even thinking about it.
anything that women enjoy or benefits women is noble and good and will be made the default course of society.
now that you know how western civilization works, you can go about your daily life with much less friction. lower your eyes in the presence of your masters.
Without reading any of this, I’m gonna say it’s because he’s a fat pervert weirdo who got all horned up and probably jacked it to all thee sex scenes he wrote, the rape scenes especially.
In any case when you’re writing a dark fantasy story I think a little rape is good. It’s like pepper, you don’t want too much or else people won’t want to eat it. I think Berserk has an acceptable amount of rape, for example.
5'6" isn't even that bad! That's the average height for women, a dude at that height has a chance.
Be me
5'4"
Try it sometime, bro. It's fucking rough! I got lucky, and my wife is both a little shorter than me AND very very lovely. But boy do you gotta wade through a river of shit in order to find the gold...
Huh, I had assumed he was just a fat little toad with no self-control who couldn't reach his bits among the folds anymore. Didn't realise he was so short too. Makes a lot of sense why the eunuch and the dwarf are his gary stu self-inserts now.
Good to see a vile-faceless minion/dread ilk here.
Since the early days of the books, GRRM has openly said that Tyrion is his favorite character, that he relates to Samwell, and that being short and fat himself, it's no surprise that he relates with those two.
Saying that I, who have called GRRM a short, fat, ugly, comic book superfan, horny old dude, am "riding his dick" is a pretty good indicator that you're arguing with emotion rather than fact.
Disagree with anything I've said? Great, point it out. "Riding his dick" is bitch talk.
George RR Martin is just the horney type that fantasized about a lot of sex stuff. It is to be expected with a lot of fantasy / SF writers. Is not even poorly implemented.
I don't even know that I would say that his work is subversive. Just that Tolkien was explicitly seeking to create an affirmative myth for the English.
Lancashire Fusiliers, in action at the Somme. Tolkien himself was invalided back home, most of his battalion were wiped out at the Somme while he was recovering.
That is just not fair, George RR Martin is not without talent. Yes his sexual frustrations show up in his books but they appear natural and well written.
You can see in "Dying of the light" just how sad he is.
Agreed. While I’m annoyed about him wasting so much time and not writing winds of winter I can’t say he isn’t talented. He did set out to subvert Tolkien’s tropes.
Subversion of Tolkien's tropes is exactly why he'll never finish. He would need to embrace the heroic in order to have a satisfying conclusion to his story or continue with his repudiation of heroism and have a very disappointing ending.
Exactly right. In trying to subvert Tolkien, Martin has subverted good storytelling, and it shows in the show's ending. D&D used his notes for that after all, and I 100% believe the absolute nonsense we got like King Bran had to have come from him (were it just left to the terrible two, I think we'd have gotten a lame but network-safe happy ending in the vein of Jon & Daenerys sitting the Iron Throne together to lead Westeros into an age of prosperity - they patently didn't like the magical aspects of the setting and left Bran out of the entirety of Season 5). That said ending was pretty much universally loathed must have really burned his ass, and deservedly so, to the point that he still hasn't published the next book after 11 years.
Frankly I'm at the point where I'd far prefer 'boring' but sensible happy endings over subversive last-minute gotchas that needlessly wreck the setting and subvert my expectations of a good or even OK work. Although I don't think we'll have to worry about that on Gurm's part, he'll release a book all about the intimate details of Rhaenyra's affairs before TWOW and ADOS at the rate he's going.
ASoIaF is an endless series of setups with no payoffs.
Every time I criticized the story people would insist "it's all building up to something!" in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The last season backlash was the realization that I was right all along, with the diehard fans resorting to "the books were adapted wrong / Martin will fix it" cope.
We learn from Martin's writing people will read 6000 pages of rape and descriptions of food as long as you keep fooling them into believing it's leading up to something. You can keep this train rolling forever by just pilling new mysteries onto the old ones. "Audience strip mining" as I call it. You dig a massive pit harvesting your audience's goodwill, then abandon the giant wreck as you abscond with their cash. It's a talent to be sure, but I consider it exploitative. Such is the nature of the market.
The unfortunate thing is Martin not only seemed to burn his own fanbase down but everyone elses' too. Readers and editors are loath to produce or consume more epic fantasy as they become leary of these sleazy writing tricks.
I've honestly enjoyed some of his works that are not related to song of ice and fire. Knowing he will never finish the books put me off from reading other books in the same world but that is not a critique of his talent.
Yeah, I agree. Some of his earlier works, like his science fiction, is really interesting. I reread the first 3 books of GoT multiple times. I've read 4 and 5 a single time each. If he finishes the series, I'll reread it all. If not, I doubt I'll read it again.
Exactly. I like his sci fi and I wanted to give Dunk and Egg or Fire and blood a chance but it really annoys me that he spends time on side projects at the expense of the main series.
There's some evidence his success came when he collaborated with the Expanse author. When he left Martin never achieved the same output or quality, and has merely been coasting on his initial success.
Game of Thrones is a legitimately good tragedy. However Martin has never referred to it as such which makes me believe it was an accident, and he has no concept of the literary theories he treads on. Deconstruction is fine but you have to stick the landing (e.g. the works of Avellone). Martin has ultimately nothing to say other than bitterness and spite.
GRRM has been writing for 50 years. He's won Hugos, Nebulas, Locus awards, etc. He's had NY Times bestsellers. He's had his works turned into very popular (at least at first!) TV shows.
That's your definition of no talent?
On a personal level he has donated and invested his money in a number of businesses--Meow Wolf (which is crazy awesome), an active locomotive museum, a historic movie theater, etc. That kind of positive local economic activity is a big deal.
they were ok films, but his directions and editing were rough even back then. it's all just explosions with jump cuts to shakey cams too close to the actions
I would disagree. He IS talented at making movies that a lot of people want to see and presumably very talented at sales pitches, networking, the directorial process, etc.
I may not like the product, but I also would not deny that he is talented.
EDIT: I would also say that people who make statements like "GRRM is a no talent hack" are no different than the people who say things like "Trump is an imbecile who has never succeeded in business." The evidence says otherwise.
Martin learned to write cliffhangers and churn drama from soap operas. Throw in endless puerility and shock and you get GoT.
His work is successful for the same reason horror films and porno are successful. We all understand that exploiting the Id is an easy way to make a buck but that makes him a lowbrow, b-movie hack at best.
He did work on Twilight Zone and Beauty and the Beast (with Linda Hamilton), but he was writing long before that. I would argue that he learned more from comics. But that's kind of neither here nor there.
Have you read the books? They are very different from the HBO show, and the show is far more salacious. Puerility? Not too much of that. Shock? Yes, there were some shocking scenes, but those were more shocking for what happened rather than being pornographic. I'd say what was shocking more than anything was that in the vast majority of fantasy novels, main characters don't die. If they do die, their character arc was clearly leading there.
I have read the books and didn't find the show meaningfully different, other than the books have vastly more pages devoted to food (which is just another indulgence--gluttony). The show did leave out the pointless, over-the-top pornographic lesbo subplot with Circe.
I came to my conclusion about the story before a single minute of footage was shot: "Enjoy the first season as a tragedy but don't expect much in the long run, Martin has no plan and is just churning drama for shock value and porn."
Sorry but "the show ruined the perfect books" is a fanboy cope.
Sorry but "the show ruined the perfect books" is a fanboy cope.
Not sure who would say that. Certainly not me. I posted elsewhere in this thread that I do, or did, legitimately really like the first 3 books. Books 4 and 5 I've only read once. I'm not sure I'll ever finish the series.
My point was not that the books were perfect, but that the accusations of GRRM being all about porn and murderporn etc come more from the TV show than the books.
As for whether he knows where things are ending up? I doubt it. Especially the popular reaction to whatever happened in the TV series. I stopped watching that after season 3, so I'm in the dark.
Tolkien had the life experience of WW1 and that bled into his work. Life experiences GREATLY improve on artistic works and living through that hell hold would.
Linking to Reddit's MenWritingWomen, where any expression of masculine sexuality is "ew gross"? Really?
GRRM is a big ole working-class 1950s New Jersey style leftist, and he always has been. He's a "superfan" comic dork. He always has been. And yeah, he's a horny old dude. Always has been.
If you don't like his work, if you find it negative, repulsive, abhorrent, or even boring, that's fine. I'm a GRRM reader from many years before the TV show, and I'm a Tolkien reader from many years before that. I like them both. You don't have to.
This attack on GRRM because you don't like the way he looks is "mean girl laugh at the incel" bullshit.
It reaks of the nojoy feminazis who have been clutching their pearls since the TV show came out.
anything that men enjoy is evil and bad and you should be imprisoned for even thinking about it.
anything that women enjoy or benefits women is noble and good and will be made the default course of society.
now that you know how western civilization works, you can go about your daily life with much less friction. lower your eyes in the presence of your masters.
Without reading any of this, I’m gonna say it’s because he’s a fat pervert weirdo who got all horned up and probably jacked it to all thee sex scenes he wrote, the rape scenes especially.
In any case when you’re writing a dark fantasy story I think a little rape is good. It’s like pepper, you don’t want too much or else people won’t want to eat it. I think Berserk has an acceptable amount of rape, for example.
Rape is used as cheap shock value in fiction. It's edgelord shit. Basically never a positive addition.
Generally violence is not obscene, especially justified, virtuous, or defensive violence.
Sex always is.
5'6" isn't even that bad! That's the average height for women, a dude at that height has a chance.
Try it sometime, bro. It's fucking rough! I got lucky, and my wife is both a little shorter than me AND very very lovely. But boy do you gotta wade through a river of shit in order to find the gold...
Huh, I had assumed he was just a fat little toad with no self-control who couldn't reach his bits among the folds anymore. Didn't realise he was so short too. Makes a lot of sense why the eunuch and the dwarf are his gary stu self-inserts now.
Good to see a vile-faceless minion/dread ilk here.
Since the early days of the books, GRRM has openly said that Tyrion is his favorite character, that he relates to Samwell, and that being short and fat himself, it's no surprise that he relates with those two.
I guess we should only read attractive authors?
You're riding his dick pretty hard considering he'd want you dead for posting here
Saying that I, who have called GRRM a short, fat, ugly, comic book superfan, horny old dude, am "riding his dick" is a pretty good indicator that you're arguing with emotion rather than fact.
Disagree with anything I've said? Great, point it out. "Riding his dick" is bitch talk.
George RR Martin is just the horney type that fantasized about a lot of sex stuff. It is to be expected with a lot of fantasy / SF writers. Is not even poorly implemented.
That would also explain why he dislikes very big people like the mountain.
I don't even know that I would say that his work is subversive. Just that Tolkien was explicitly seeking to create an affirmative myth for the English.
Crab. Salty crab.
lol at all the haters in here for GRRM, a man of insane talent who wrote the best adult fantasy series of modern times.
the only thing he did wrong was not finishing the books once the TV show took off and he got famous.
No he didn't. You need to read more and stop being so damned horny
George R.R. Martin served in WW1?
edit: I have been informed that "WW1" stands for "Winds of Winter 1"
I don't read his books
No, but J.R.R. did.
Lancashire Fusiliers, in action at the Somme. Tolkien himself was invalided back home, most of his battalion were wiped out at the Somme while he was recovering.
I'll never understand the "men under 6'3" are not human" crowd.
That is just not fair, George RR Martin is not without talent. Yes his sexual frustrations show up in his books but they appear natural and well written. You can see in "Dying of the light" just how sad he is.
Agreed. While I’m annoyed about him wasting so much time and not writing winds of winter I can’t say he isn’t talented. He did set out to subvert Tolkien’s tropes.
Subversion of Tolkien's tropes is exactly why he'll never finish. He would need to embrace the heroic in order to have a satisfying conclusion to his story or continue with his repudiation of heroism and have a very disappointing ending.
Exactly right. In trying to subvert Tolkien, Martin has subverted good storytelling, and it shows in the show's ending. D&D used his notes for that after all, and I 100% believe the absolute nonsense we got like King Bran had to have come from him (were it just left to the terrible two, I think we'd have gotten a lame but network-safe happy ending in the vein of Jon & Daenerys sitting the Iron Throne together to lead Westeros into an age of prosperity - they patently didn't like the magical aspects of the setting and left Bran out of the entirety of Season 5). That said ending was pretty much universally loathed must have really burned his ass, and deservedly so, to the point that he still hasn't published the next book after 11 years.
Frankly I'm at the point where I'd far prefer 'boring' but sensible happy endings over subversive last-minute gotchas that needlessly wreck the setting and subvert my expectations of a good or even OK work. Although I don't think we'll have to worry about that on Gurm's part, he'll release a book all about the intimate details of Rhaenyra's affairs before TWOW and ADOS at the rate he's going.
ASoIaF is an endless series of setups with no payoffs.
Every time I criticized the story people would insist "it's all building up to something!" in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The last season backlash was the realization that I was right all along, with the diehard fans resorting to "the books were adapted wrong / Martin will fix it" cope.
We learn from Martin's writing people will read 6000 pages of rape and descriptions of food as long as you keep fooling them into believing it's leading up to something. You can keep this train rolling forever by just pilling new mysteries onto the old ones. "Audience strip mining" as I call it. You dig a massive pit harvesting your audience's goodwill, then abandon the giant wreck as you abscond with their cash. It's a talent to be sure, but I consider it exploitative. Such is the nature of the market.
The unfortunate thing is Martin not only seemed to burn his own fanbase down but everyone elses' too. Readers and editors are loath to produce or consume more epic fantasy as they become leary of these sleazy writing tricks.
There have been plenty of payoffs. The Red Wedding itself was a payoff, for example.
There are also a bunch of other payoffs we already know like Jon Snows origin and such.
Red Wedding isn't a payoff it's an exploding cigar. Like all of his plotlines, it's not resolved but aborted, rug pulled out and everyone falls flat.
I've honestly enjoyed some of his works that are not related to song of ice and fire. Knowing he will never finish the books put me off from reading other books in the same world but that is not a critique of his talent.
Yeah, I agree. Some of his earlier works, like his science fiction, is really interesting. I reread the first 3 books of GoT multiple times. I've read 4 and 5 a single time each. If he finishes the series, I'll reread it all. If not, I doubt I'll read it again.
Exactly. I like his sci fi and I wanted to give Dunk and Egg or Fire and blood a chance but it really annoys me that he spends time on side projects at the expense of the main series.
There's some evidence his success came when he collaborated with the Expanse author. When he left Martin never achieved the same output or quality, and has merely been coasting on his initial success.
Game of Thrones is a legitimately good tragedy. However Martin has never referred to it as such which makes me believe it was an accident, and he has no concept of the literary theories he treads on. Deconstruction is fine but you have to stick the landing (e.g. the works of Avellone). Martin has ultimately nothing to say other than bitterness and spite.
He definitely doesn't have Tolkien's work ethic but he does have real talent.
I don't agree. The books have a normal, non-censored, realistic amount of sex in them. As opposed to Brian Sanderson's stuff which is very asexual.
It's not like the Wheel of Time series which has anime-like levels of blue balls sexual frustration and soft harem shit.
GRRM has been writing for 50 years. He's won Hugos, Nebulas, Locus awards, etc. He's had NY Times bestsellers. He's had his works turned into very popular (at least at first!) TV shows.
That's your definition of no talent?
On a personal level he has donated and invested his money in a number of businesses--Meow Wolf (which is crazy awesome), an active locomotive museum, a historic movie theater, etc. That kind of positive local economic activity is a big deal.
Michael Bay has been directing movies for 30 years, all of them block busters and made billions for paramount, doesn't mean he's talented
Michael Bay has talent though.
Give him a script and a small budget, you get The Rock, Bad Boys 1, The Island, 13 hours, and Pain & Gain.
Give him too much money and a bad script, you get booty-butt-cheeks.
I wanted to see if he had talent, so I tried reading one of his screenplays.
While reading it, the screenplay exploded into a giant fireball and burned off my eyebrows.
6/10.
they were ok films, but his directions and editing were rough even back then. it's all just explosions with jump cuts to shakey cams too close to the actions
Michael Bay is extremely talented. The fact that you don't like his style doesn't make him untalented.
I would disagree. He IS talented at making movies that a lot of people want to see and presumably very talented at sales pitches, networking, the directorial process, etc.
I may not like the product, but I also would not deny that he is talented.
EDIT: I would also say that people who make statements like "GRRM is a no talent hack" are no different than the people who say things like "Trump is an imbecile who has never succeeded in business." The evidence says otherwise.
Martin learned to write cliffhangers and churn drama from soap operas. Throw in endless puerility and shock and you get GoT.
His work is successful for the same reason horror films and porno are successful. We all understand that exploiting the Id is an easy way to make a buck but that makes him a lowbrow, b-movie hack at best.
He did work on Twilight Zone and Beauty and the Beast (with Linda Hamilton), but he was writing long before that. I would argue that he learned more from comics. But that's kind of neither here nor there.
Have you read the books? They are very different from the HBO show, and the show is far more salacious. Puerility? Not too much of that. Shock? Yes, there were some shocking scenes, but those were more shocking for what happened rather than being pornographic. I'd say what was shocking more than anything was that in the vast majority of fantasy novels, main characters don't die. If they do die, their character arc was clearly leading there.
I have read the books and didn't find the show meaningfully different, other than the books have vastly more pages devoted to food (which is just another indulgence--gluttony). The show did leave out the pointless, over-the-top pornographic lesbo subplot with Circe.
I came to my conclusion about the story before a single minute of footage was shot: "Enjoy the first season as a tragedy but don't expect much in the long run, Martin has no plan and is just churning drama for shock value and porn."
Sorry but "the show ruined the perfect books" is a fanboy cope.
Not sure who would say that. Certainly not me. I posted elsewhere in this thread that I do, or did, legitimately really like the first 3 books. Books 4 and 5 I've only read once. I'm not sure I'll ever finish the series.
My point was not that the books were perfect, but that the accusations of GRRM being all about porn and murderporn etc come more from the TV show than the books.
As for whether he knows where things are ending up? I doubt it. Especially the popular reaction to whatever happened in the TV series. I stopped watching that after season 3, so I'm in the dark.
GERRM is a scumbag. Tolkien wasn’t.
EDIT; fuck you Martin!