I attend a Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), let me explain a little:
#The on paper changes Vatican II wrought:
The Traditional Latin mass has come under heavy restriction since the 60s, since the second Vatican council, there was a big push towards the novus ordo (the NO, the new mass) in the vernacular (not necessarily, but de facto). It is important to note that this is not just a change of language from Latin to English (or whatever languages are spoken locally). The missals are different https://lms.org.uk/missals , with a lot of missed content, the NO mass has different prayers and a different calendar. The direction the priest faces is different (Traditional Latin Mass has the priest face east towards the alter, novus ordo now often has him face the congregation), the amount and type of participation from the laity is different with the NO requiring more participation from the people, and the way you take communion is different. Latin mass takes it kneeling on the tongue at alter rails, Novus Ordo takes it on the hand. I can understand why you might not think this important, but there are deep concerns and worries about the hand method from traditionalists which we can get into elsewhere.
#The other changes
Those are just the explicit and acknowledged shifts, but there are more. On paper Vatican II still encourages that the Novus ordo place chanting and organ in a privileged position, other instruments should only be very carefully considered, are they wholly appropriate and conducive to prayer?
Musical instruments can be very useful in sacred celebrations, whether they accompany the singing or whether they are played as solo instruments.
"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.
"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful."[43]
In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.[44]
Seems pretty clear right? The music should all be the same good old stuff. And yet the Novus Ordo masses have, by and large, lost this. Guitar, bands, secular music have all found their way into the Novus Ordo. So the actual shift is far more pervasive than what the actual text would imply.
It's hypothetically possible to attend one of the few 'reverential novus ordo' masses with all the respect for all those traditions, but, some call them 'unicorn masses' for a reason.
I can also understand if you think these are largely cosmetic or aesthetic issues so far (but for communion), but we also see big changes in confession. Not just to the sacrament itself, but in how often it is offered. You can't take communion if you're not in a state of grace, mortal sin requires you go to confession first. At my local NO church, confession is only by appointment. Or '30 mins on a tuesday only'. At the latin mass church the queue is regularly 'round the corner', they can barely keep up with it. Is this the congregation demanding more of this rite or even going into being scrupulous? There are elements of that, but the point is that this fundamental important rite is actually offered regularly at the Latin church. To not offer confession to the type of person attending a Latin mass? It's not tenable.
#Who attends the Latin mass?
Ok. Now lets look at who attends the old Latin masses. It is all conservatives and traditionalists. There is a bit of a gap in the generations if I am honest, my local* (I wish it were local) latin mass is all either 80+, or it's under 35's traditionalists raising big families (and so these congregations are growing). Most of the girls and women wearing mantillas. They also lean quite heavily traditionalist and conservative in politics. Day 1 of attendance I got into a chat about the globalists and NWO with an old bloke before going to confession, initiated by him. The NO churches are more 'boomer', but no young families (immigrant heavy ones are a bit different)
In other words, Latin mass is largely Catholics who would mostly align with us here on this board, just less nerdy about video games.
#The values of the Pope
Now let's look at who the Pope is. He's a progressive Jesuit. Seen as more in line with the movements coming out of Germany than the types who attend the Latin Mass, traditionalists.
Pope Benedict was seen as more accepting of the Latin mass, and lessened the restrictions on it. We're seeing them return now, as many predicted, after the death of Benedict.
#other issues
This has already caused some schism. There was a traditionalist archbishop excommunicated in the 70s for doing emergency consecrations of 4 bishops to continue the latin mass and grow that order. He'd been promised permission but it kept being delayed... He and those bishops later had those excommunications lifted*, and that society (the sspx) has then always had somewhat irregular status. The FFSP which came from them is more in line with rome, while other splinter groups from the sspx are fully schismatic. The sspx and ffsp together form a large number of the latin mass churches. I can perhaps see why there is a worry about schism in the church about the traditionalists, but the answer can't be a repeat of the 70s. Driving them away and restriction of their old catholic ways is what creates schism it seems to me.
A lot of the things in the novus ordo are not actually a part of Vatican 2. Turning the priest around is a major example that was done "in the spirit of Vatican 2".
That said, as far as I'm concerned the entire NO is the satanic rite mentioned by Mary to the mystics at basically all of her apparition sites around the world over the past 300 years. The TLM is the only Catholic mass. Period.
Yeah I forget about those rites a lot because they're rare around me. There was also once an Irish rite that was completely destroyed by the church. It's been completely erased from history.
What I was really getting at is that of the rites coming out of Rome, the NO contains elements that are explicitly opposed to catholic teaching. Take the NO baptismal rite, which is literally lifted directly out of a protestant manual of prayer and turns the entire dogma of faith on its head.
His faculties were failing. He was a blindingly brilliant guy (don't care about anybody's thoughts on organized religion, read his work and tell me otherwise) - I think losing this made it impossible for him to proceed. I didn't like it and wish it didn't happen, but it's more ethical for him to step down than to let one of the subordinates use him to their own ends.
Because Latin Mass is ancient heritage, something progressives hate. And the pope is a progressive, not a Catholic. Methinks the Catholic Church will have to split to survive, one going all out progressive and dying while the rest goes hard traditional. One will worship its master, the king of this world, the other will worship the Christ with ties to the ancient world and Christendom.
I'm not Catholic but I did do some time in Catholic school where we attended Latin Mass, it was the only kind of Mass they had. I liked it, it was comforting and familiar and the prayers were memorized by all; it was always exactly the same as it had been for nearly two thousand years.
Why would the Pope of all people try to destroy it? It's the very foundation of the church (or maybe I just answered my own question)
I don't have any particularly special insight into the man who sits the Chair right now, but I have attended mass in Latin in some of the ancient cathedrals in Europe, and it was a powerful experience.
Perhaps the prayer in Latin contains supernatural power that scares demons away. English can work but the Latin is extra painful to them due to multi-generational memory.
Nah I'm not Catholic but if I was writing a story about the Dark Realm's subversion of the church, that's what they'd do. Also it would be secretly controlled by vampires like in Castlevania.
Latin is actually more efficacious in prayer and exorcism because it is a sacred language. Demons hate Latin.
And no, the Latin the church uses is not the vernacular Latin of the Roman empire. It's a modified formal court Latin, much like formal French used to be the standard for law in the west.
Because there exists a Schism in the Catholic Church almost as bad as the Protestant/Catholic Schism. He's trying to patchwork things to fix it. The Schism is Traditional Catholics vs. Leftist Catholics. The Leftist Catholics are basically just leftist communists under the guise of Jesus and the Traditional Catholics are the only Catholics left who want to actually preserve the religion. The Pope is a Leftist Catholic and so he's trying to reduce the influence of the Traditional Catholic Churches. Latin Mass has been a rallying cry for the Traditional Catholics, which is actually quite pathetic because a lot of Traditional Catholics seem to think the only thing that differentiates them from Leftist Catholics is the Latin Mass, which if true, would make Traditional Catholicism pointless. The Pope wants to end the influence Latin Mass has on segregating people from Leftist Catholicism.
Latin is the language of Rome, the greatest civilization to ever exist. Rome is the de facto progenitor of western civilization. Our languages, culture, governments, traditions, etc. all have roots in Rome.
Rome is the embodiment of the characteristics of masculinity. It conquered those around it, absorbed them, and made itself better. It encouraged competition and ambition within itself. It gave the world law and order. It built great monuments and works of art. It spawned the greatest gigachad the world has ever seen, Ave Caesar.
Latin represents everything good about western civilization, and that is a bad thing when you are a tranny faggot loving Benedict Arnold like Pope Francis.
There have been bad popes before. Many of them are probably in hell. Christ's church will survive. This said, I pray for Pope Francis. I disagree with much he has said and done but I won't let that stop me.
This pope is a Jesuit. Jesuits are full blown Inana worshipers. That's why theyve turned out either atheists or more Inana worshippers at their schools since their founding.
Loyola was visited by the only Queen of Heaven mentioned in the Bible, Inana, the Whore of Babylon.
I attend a Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), let me explain a little:
#The on paper changes Vatican II wrought:
The Traditional Latin mass has come under heavy restriction since the 60s, since the second Vatican council, there was a big push towards the novus ordo (the NO, the new mass) in the vernacular (not necessarily, but de facto). It is important to note that this is not just a change of language from Latin to English (or whatever languages are spoken locally). The missals are different https://lms.org.uk/missals , with a lot of missed content, the NO mass has different prayers and a different calendar. The direction the priest faces is different (Traditional Latin Mass has the priest face east towards the alter, novus ordo now often has him face the congregation), the amount and type of participation from the laity is different with the NO requiring more participation from the people, and the way you take communion is different. Latin mass takes it kneeling on the tongue at alter rails, Novus Ordo takes it on the hand. I can understand why you might not think this important, but there are deep concerns and worries about the hand method from traditionalists which we can get into elsewhere.
#The other changes
Those are just the explicit and acknowledged shifts, but there are more. On paper Vatican II still encourages that the Novus ordo place chanting and organ in a privileged position, other instruments should only be very carefully considered, are they wholly appropriate and conducive to prayer?
Seems pretty clear right? The music should all be the same good old stuff. And yet the Novus Ordo masses have, by and large, lost this. Guitar, bands, secular music have all found their way into the Novus Ordo. So the actual shift is far more pervasive than what the actual text would imply.
It's hypothetically possible to attend one of the few 'reverential novus ordo' masses with all the respect for all those traditions, but, some call them 'unicorn masses' for a reason.
I can also understand if you think these are largely cosmetic or aesthetic issues so far (but for communion), but we also see big changes in confession. Not just to the sacrament itself, but in how often it is offered. You can't take communion if you're not in a state of grace, mortal sin requires you go to confession first. At my local NO church, confession is only by appointment. Or '30 mins on a tuesday only'. At the latin mass church the queue is regularly 'round the corner', they can barely keep up with it. Is this the congregation demanding more of this rite or even going into being scrupulous? There are elements of that, but the point is that this fundamental important rite is actually offered regularly at the Latin church. To not offer confession to the type of person attending a Latin mass? It's not tenable.
#Who attends the Latin mass?
Ok. Now lets look at who attends the old Latin masses. It is all conservatives and traditionalists. There is a bit of a gap in the generations if I am honest, my local* (I wish it were local) latin mass is all either 80+, or it's under 35's traditionalists raising big families (and so these congregations are growing). Most of the girls and women wearing mantillas. They also lean quite heavily traditionalist and conservative in politics. Day 1 of attendance I got into a chat about the globalists and NWO with an old bloke before going to confession, initiated by him. The NO churches are more 'boomer', but no young families (immigrant heavy ones are a bit different)
In other words, Latin mass is largely Catholics who would mostly align with us here on this board, just less nerdy about video games.
#The values of the Pope
Now let's look at who the Pope is. He's a progressive Jesuit. Seen as more in line with the movements coming out of Germany than the types who attend the Latin Mass, traditionalists.
Pope Benedict was seen as more accepting of the Latin mass, and lessened the restrictions on it. We're seeing them return now, as many predicted, after the death of Benedict.
#other issues
This has already caused some schism. There was a traditionalist archbishop excommunicated in the 70s for doing emergency consecrations of 4 bishops to continue the latin mass and grow that order. He'd been promised permission but it kept being delayed... He and those bishops later had those excommunications lifted*, and that society (the sspx) has then always had somewhat irregular status. The FFSP which came from them is more in line with rome, while other splinter groups from the sspx are fully schismatic. The sspx and ffsp together form a large number of the latin mass churches. I can perhaps see why there is a worry about schism in the church about the traditionalists, but the answer can't be a repeat of the 70s. Driving them away and restriction of their old catholic ways is what creates schism it seems to me.
I haven't been to a Catholic church since I was a child, but my mind is blown that there's something other than Latin Mass.
Just be protestant, then you don't have to listen to the damn pope.
Laughs in Church of England, with a gender-neutral God and gay weddings… 😑
Anglican is hardly protestant. It's Great Value Catholicism.
Damned popes. There might be one or two who were Chrisitians but most were definitely anti-Christs
thank you
A lot of the things in the novus ordo are not actually a part of Vatican 2. Turning the priest around is a major example that was done "in the spirit of Vatican 2".
That said, as far as I'm concerned the entire NO is the satanic rite mentioned by Mary to the mystics at basically all of her apparition sites around the world over the past 300 years. The TLM is the only Catholic mass. Period.
Well we'll have to argue about the eastern rites and the dominican rite then. But I understand what you are saying
True, I misplaced that one, thanks for catching that.
Yeah I forget about those rites a lot because they're rare around me. There was also once an Irish rite that was completely destroyed by the church. It's been completely erased from history.
What I was really getting at is that of the rites coming out of Rome, the NO contains elements that are explicitly opposed to catholic teaching. Take the NO baptismal rite, which is literally lifted directly out of a protestant manual of prayer and turns the entire dogma of faith on its head.
Why did Pope Benedict resign?
Why wasn't this seen as a grave derelict of duties?
Why would he just abandon the responsibility put on him by his peers, and presumably from the religious point of view, from god?
His faculties were failing. He was a blindingly brilliant guy (don't care about anybody's thoughts on organized religion, read his work and tell me otherwise) - I think losing this made it impossible for him to proceed. I didn't like it and wish it didn't happen, but it's more ethical for him to step down than to let one of the subordinates use him to their own ends.
Deus cult!
It's because he's a communist.
Because Latin Mass is ancient heritage, something progressives hate. And the pope is a progressive, not a Catholic. Methinks the Catholic Church will have to split to survive, one going all out progressive and dying while the rest goes hard traditional. One will worship its master, the king of this world, the other will worship the Christ with ties to the ancient world and Christendom.
That is how some other denominations have survived. Icr Anglicans or something.
The Anglican schism is heating up at the moment, actually…
Most cathedrals in Aus will probably split, in the next 5 years or so…
The “evangelical Anglicans” already mostly have.
I'm not Catholic but I did do some time in Catholic school where we attended Latin Mass, it was the only kind of Mass they had. I liked it, it was comforting and familiar and the prayers were memorized by all; it was always exactly the same as it had been for nearly two thousand years.
Why would the Pope of all people try to destroy it? It's the very foundation of the church (or maybe I just answered my own question)
This seems to be about the Pope settling scores with his conservative critics. He clearly doesn't give a shit about what the Church actually teaches.
I don't have any particularly special insight into the man who sits the Chair right now, but I have attended mass in Latin in some of the ancient cathedrals in Europe, and it was a powerful experience.
The Chair of St. Peter is Vacant.
The greatest professional wrestler of all time!
...I'll see myself out.
Perhaps the prayer in Latin contains supernatural power that scares demons away. English can work but the Latin is extra painful to them due to multi-generational memory.
Nah I'm not Catholic but if I was writing a story about the Dark Realm's subversion of the church, that's what they'd do. Also it would be secretly controlled by vampires like in Castlevania.
Latin is actually more efficacious in prayer and exorcism because it is a sacred language. Demons hate Latin.
And no, the Latin the church uses is not the vernacular Latin of the Roman empire. It's a modified formal court Latin, much like formal French used to be the standard for law in the west.
Father Chad Ripperger[edit, fixed spelling], a well known exorcist, has said as much.
Lol. That would be a hilarious nickname for him, shared among all the demons he casts out.
Hah woops. Yes it would ;-)
They have changed their minds enough times about Latin that they are definitely fallible. The question is only when they are wrong.
Because there exists a Schism in the Catholic Church almost as bad as the Protestant/Catholic Schism. He's trying to patchwork things to fix it. The Schism is Traditional Catholics vs. Leftist Catholics. The Leftist Catholics are basically just leftist communists under the guise of Jesus and the Traditional Catholics are the only Catholics left who want to actually preserve the religion. The Pope is a Leftist Catholic and so he's trying to reduce the influence of the Traditional Catholic Churches. Latin Mass has been a rallying cry for the Traditional Catholics, which is actually quite pathetic because a lot of Traditional Catholics seem to think the only thing that differentiates them from Leftist Catholics is the Latin Mass, which if true, would make Traditional Catholicism pointless. The Pope wants to end the influence Latin Mass has on segregating people from Leftist Catholicism.
Latin is the language of Rome, the greatest civilization to ever exist. Rome is the de facto progenitor of western civilization. Our languages, culture, governments, traditions, etc. all have roots in Rome.
Rome is the embodiment of the characteristics of masculinity. It conquered those around it, absorbed them, and made itself better. It encouraged competition and ambition within itself. It gave the world law and order. It built great monuments and works of art. It spawned the greatest gigachad the world has ever seen, Ave Caesar.
Latin represents everything good about western civilization, and that is a bad thing when you are a tranny faggot loving Benedict Arnold like Pope Francis.
Caesar is not the greatest gigachad. If you're looking to fodless heathens who accomplished great things, it's easily Ghengis Khan.
Because it must have some kind of power over demons and Francis wants to make his kind more comfortable in churches.
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses
There have been bad popes before. Many of them are probably in hell. Christ's church will survive. This said, I pray for Pope Francis. I disagree with much he has said and done but I won't let that stop me.
This pope is a Jesuit. Jesuits are full blown Inana worshipers. That's why theyve turned out either atheists or more Inana worshippers at their schools since their founding.
Loyola was visited by the only Queen of Heaven mentioned in the Bible, Inana, the Whore of Babylon.