This leads me to a debate / argument I had with my wife about judging people. She is somewhat more religious and we were talking about judging people and how it is not our place to judge people. This was related to abortion but it applies here.
If we are suppose to not judge an adult human being fucking 5 year old then there is something very wrong.
Edit: I would not mind a religious persons perspective on this one. How far should not judging others needs to go?
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7:1-2)
I'm not a biblical expert but I am fine to be judged by the measure of 'wanting to fuck a five year old.'
Fellow Christian here. I’m sure you’ve seen over and over where someone is engaged in disgusting behavior and they throw out the “don’t judge” if you say something about it.
I am a devout Christian. This argument of your wife's is very common but very mistaken belief. There are a ton of scriptures that talk about how we should judge:
You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly. -- Leviticus 19:15
These are the things which you should do: speak the truth to one another; judge with truth and judgment for peace in your gates. - Zechariah 8:16
Do not judge, so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. -- Matthew 7:2
And why do you not even judge by yourselves what is right? -- Luke 12:51
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment. - John 7:24
But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. -- 1 Corinthians 11:31
For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. -- 1 Corinthians 5:3
In addition to these, there are a plethora of scriptures about rebuking wicked behavior, discerning right from wrong, executing justice and any number of other things that requires judgement.
Christians who take only this first part of scripture in Matthew 7 and extrapolate it out to mean we shouldn't judge are just young and immature in the faith and haven't spent enough time walking as a Christian or reading the Bible to understand it.
That depends on what you mean by "condemn". We don't have a right to condemn a man's soul for his sins against God, but we must certainly have the authority or right to condemn a person for the wrongs they've committed against others, otherwise justice couldn't be served at all in this life.
What would you call it when a man commits murder and is caught and punished by the authorities? Isn't this "condemnation" for committing murder? What about when Paul judges those in Corinth who are engaged in sexual sin? Isn't this condemnation?
That depends on what you mean by "condemn". We don't have a right to condemn a man's soul for his sins against God, but we must certainly have the authority or right to condemn a person for the wrongs they've committed against others, otherwise justice couldn't be served at all in this life.
Right exactly, thanks for pointing that out. Condemnation of the soul is the second death and eternal obliteration, not at all the same as legal sentencing
I had a friend whose brother had raped a little girl. He got out of prison and was invited to a family reunion. They made sure children were never near him, but also treated him with love.
Would it be kindness to not judge an alcoholic by giving them a beer, or by going somewhere to not drink? To me it's the same as a friend with a broken leg not being able to skateboard at the moment. A tall friend can't fit in things as easily as a smaller friend.
It's not judging, it's recognizing the problem and finding a way to still be happy and dealing with the problem with love. Did Christ judge when people woke him up from a nap? No, he dealt with the problem, and then went back to bed. Trying to hold on to a grudge, or constantly view things angrily solves no problems and makes it difficult to think straight and see joy.
The left wants forgiveness where the children are put back with the man who just came out of prison. They are demanding that the kid in the wheelchair can still compete on a skateboard. The alcoholic should go to pub tomorrow and drink with mates. They think tall people can see the bottom shelf at a store. They want the problem ignored, or hold a grudge against those who mention the problem. They judge because they think someone else is judging.
This is part of being Christian, we need to seek a solution to a problem with love. It's not always easy, and can mean extra rules at a family reunion, but it is possible.
So on a roadtrip many years ago I was listening to Dr Laura on the radio (a guilty pleasure of mine).
This one caller was talking about how her brother had molested her when they were young, and she didn't want her own kids near him. Her parents were upset that the whole family couldn't be together at Christmas and were pressuring her to accept him, saying he had changed, etc etc etc.
Dr Laura just goes "Ok. I'm going to say this very simply. As soon as I am done you are going to hang up the phone and you are going to call the police. All the evidence says that pedophile rapists who abuse child do not change. They are almost all repeat offenders. If you were abused, it is almost certain your brother has raped other kids as well. Call the police."
"But my mom says .... "
"Hang up the phone. Call the police."
"But my kids won't get to have a relationship with grandm-- "
That's part of the repentance process. It's not just forgiveness by God, but showing you are actively going against your own sin. Going to prison for your sin can be part of what is needed. Helping a friend to go to prison is a hard thing, but needed.
A martial arts instructor I had once beat up the abusive husband of his sister. The abusive husband also went to prison for three, which saved his life. It turns out he had a liver problem and the prison was able to get him the surgery. The abusive husband is divorced, but still good friends with my martial arts instructor.
But we know the caller didn't call the police, did she? Thank goodness that she didn't, for that man would go on to have an illustrious career in American politics, eventually rising to the highest office of the land. That man's name? Joseph R. Biden.
I would never have invited that brother into my home. You can go visit them, talk to them, whatever, but you do NOT bring evil into your home, especially in a home with children around, no matter what. It doesn't matter that he's sorry as long as he is the way he is, and it doesn't matter that they put the children in another room or whatever. Acceptance of evil is one of the worst things you can do.
The child rapist brother wasn't healed. You didn't even say he was repentant.
Fellowship with unrepentant sinners who are still under the bondage and influence of sin is wrong and not biblical (1 Corinthians 5). Whether it's in a home or in a park makes no difference.
If the man were healed AND repentant, then the situation may be different, but only after much prayer and weighing it before the Lord.
I've been trying to be more religious of late. I've been an atheist/ agnostic for a long time but started going to church and reading the bible. Not judging and not hating is freaking hard to do. There is something evil about hamming children that that makes my blood boil.
Don't forget that as a Christian you live in God's Kingdom, but you also live in The World, in Babylon. "Judging and hating" is often a ridiculous admonishment (used for purely motivated reasons) to ignore your necessary participation in the world, as a citizen. The entirety of (non-religious) law is of the world, and it's built of nothing but what society finds abhorrent. What society "hates" and "judges." You have a seat at that table.
If you take your religiously-informed judgment out of your part in civic engagement, and like-minded and like-hearted do the same, all you're left with is ungrounded atheists calling the shots.
That's what we're dealing with when it comes to "family-friendly drag shows" and the like. There's a collusion of perverted academics and their enablers in the administrative bureaucracy, supporting in each other when they say "age-appropriate and culturally-appropriate!" even though to anyone with functioning morals, ethics, and aesthetics, it's clearly not okay. These people don't share your values. Don't be fooled when they ape "Judge not!" at you just to get you to decline your responsibilities as a citizen.
It's not supposed to be easy. Christ didn't give easy commandments. He forgave the soldiers actively killing him. I don't think I could do that.
I think it goes with the story of the good Samaritan. A man saves the life of someone who hated him. Others who were considered good men did not save the man. Who was the neighbor?
Instead, it's a way to look past the accusations, find a way to take care of the problem itself and share it with others. That's not an easy thing. Saul actively killed christians when God converted him. Naaman was captain of the enemy forces when he went to Elisha. When Elisha was surrounded by a host of the enemy, he prayed for them and asked God not to slay them. He then led them into captivity after blinding them.
The answer doesn't mean don't protect yourself or ignore the problem. Satan always gives false choices and says they are the only answers.
Not religious, but I always liked the idea of Christianity when I heard some priest or pastor or some such talk about Paul.
He said something like: "Paul persecuted and caused the deaths of many Christians, but all the saints and angels were rejoicing in Heaven when he repented and was saved".
Really made me appreciate what Christians are asked to do. Sure, nobody is perfect, many are Christian in name only, but the source of their faith is very pure and it's easy to see nothing that's horrible and done in the Christianitys name is because of the Bible. I can't say the same for some other religions.
Christ didn't tell us to not judge, He told us to be prepared to be judged by the standard that we use. It's more a caution against religion than morality (so-and-so doesn't tithe enough, they're going to hell!).
There's also plenty of scriptural support for hating evil. Right now, I particularly like this bit from Jude:
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" wasn't followed up with Christ picking up a rock and chucking it to begin the stoning process. In even your example, it's pulling them out of the fire, not pushing them into it. It is still saving, salving, succoring. Which, you know, is kind of important to an all-forgiving being. But it certainly doesn't affirm "fuck 'em all, they're all evil. Brimstone, floods, and salt pillar time.", that's more Old Testament flavor.
That is about hypocrisy and pretending to he holier than thou. Jesus also says to rebuke your fellows and further twice says to drown pedophiles and other child predators in the sea
This leads me to a debate / argument I had with my wife about judging people. She is somewhat more religious and we were talking about judging people and how it is not our place to judge people. This was related to abortion but it applies here.
If we are suppose to not judge an adult human being fucking 5 year old then there is something very wrong.
Edit: I would not mind a religious persons perspective on this one. How far should not judging others needs to go?
I'm not a biblical expert but I am fine to be judged by the measure of 'wanting to fuck a five year old.'
I think it's more of a warning to police your own behaviour, than it is an admonishment to just let everything slide.
It's just a convoluted way of saying, "watch what you do, lest you be called hypocrite."
That would make sense if we were nonces. But we're not.
I've always read that as an admonishment against irrational prejudice, not all judgement, especially moral judgement.
Some denominations take this REALLY far but as a Catholic, I would say it's clear we are allowed to punish evil on earth.
The thing about "not judging" is more twofold meaning to give everyone fair treatment, and to not speculate on where their soul might end up.
Fellow Christian here. I’m sure you’ve seen over and over where someone is engaged in disgusting behavior and they throw out the “don’t judge” if you say something about it.
I am a devout Christian. This argument of your wife's is very common but very mistaken belief. There are a ton of scriptures that talk about how we should judge:
In addition to these, there are a plethora of scriptures about rebuking wicked behavior, discerning right from wrong, executing justice and any number of other things that requires judgement.
Christians who take only this first part of scripture in Matthew 7 and extrapolate it out to mean we shouldn't judge are just young and immature in the faith and haven't spent enough time walking as a Christian or reading the Bible to understand it.
Yes, "judge not" essentially means "condemn not."
If "judge not" meant "don't recognize other people's evil deeds" then we would have no way of telling right from wrong.
That depends on what you mean by "condemn". We don't have a right to condemn a man's soul for his sins against God, but we must certainly have the authority or right to condemn a person for the wrongs they've committed against others, otherwise justice couldn't be served at all in this life.
What would you call it when a man commits murder and is caught and punished by the authorities? Isn't this "condemnation" for committing murder? What about when Paul judges those in Corinth who are engaged in sexual sin? Isn't this condemnation?
Right exactly, thanks for pointing that out. Condemnation of the soul is the second death and eternal obliteration, not at all the same as legal sentencing
I had a friend whose brother had raped a little girl. He got out of prison and was invited to a family reunion. They made sure children were never near him, but also treated him with love.
Would it be kindness to not judge an alcoholic by giving them a beer, or by going somewhere to not drink? To me it's the same as a friend with a broken leg not being able to skateboard at the moment. A tall friend can't fit in things as easily as a smaller friend.
It's not judging, it's recognizing the problem and finding a way to still be happy and dealing with the problem with love. Did Christ judge when people woke him up from a nap? No, he dealt with the problem, and then went back to bed. Trying to hold on to a grudge, or constantly view things angrily solves no problems and makes it difficult to think straight and see joy.
The left wants forgiveness where the children are put back with the man who just came out of prison. They are demanding that the kid in the wheelchair can still compete on a skateboard. The alcoholic should go to pub tomorrow and drink with mates. They think tall people can see the bottom shelf at a store. They want the problem ignored, or hold a grudge against those who mention the problem. They judge because they think someone else is judging.
This is part of being Christian, we need to seek a solution to a problem with love. It's not always easy, and can mean extra rules at a family reunion, but it is possible.
So on a roadtrip many years ago I was listening to Dr Laura on the radio (a guilty pleasure of mine).
This one caller was talking about how her brother had molested her when they were young, and she didn't want her own kids near him. Her parents were upset that the whole family couldn't be together at Christmas and were pressuring her to accept him, saying he had changed, etc etc etc.
Dr Laura just goes "Ok. I'm going to say this very simply. As soon as I am done you are going to hang up the phone and you are going to call the police. All the evidence says that pedophile rapists who abuse child do not change. They are almost all repeat offenders. If you were abused, it is almost certain your brother has raped other kids as well. Call the police."
"But my mom says .... "
"Hang up the phone. Call the police."
"But my kids won't get to have a relationship with grandm-- "
"HANG. UP. THE. PHONE. AND. CALL. THE. POLICE"
That's part of the repentance process. It's not just forgiveness by God, but showing you are actively going against your own sin. Going to prison for your sin can be part of what is needed. Helping a friend to go to prison is a hard thing, but needed.
A martial arts instructor I had once beat up the abusive husband of his sister. The abusive husband also went to prison for three, which saved his life. It turns out he had a liver problem and the prison was able to get him the surgery. The abusive husband is divorced, but still good friends with my martial arts instructor.
But we know the caller didn't call the police, did she? Thank goodness that she didn't, for that man would go on to have an illustrious career in American politics, eventually rising to the highest office of the land. That man's name? Joseph R. Biden.
And now you know... the rest of the story.
Good day.
I would never have invited that brother into my home. You can go visit them, talk to them, whatever, but you do NOT bring evil into your home, especially in a home with children around, no matter what. It doesn't matter that he's sorry as long as he is the way he is, and it doesn't matter that they put the children in another room or whatever. Acceptance of evil is one of the worst things you can do.
It took place at a park so I guess that solves that question.
Imagine the man who had to heal Paul. That had to be hard.
The child rapist brother wasn't healed. You didn't even say he was repentant.
Fellowship with unrepentant sinners who are still under the bondage and influence of sin is wrong and not biblical (1 Corinthians 5). Whether it's in a home or in a park makes no difference.
If the man were healed AND repentant, then the situation may be different, but only after much prayer and weighing it before the Lord.
I've been trying to be more religious of late. I've been an atheist/ agnostic for a long time but started going to church and reading the bible. Not judging and not hating is freaking hard to do. There is something evil about hamming children that that makes my blood boil.
I guess I have a long way to go.
Don't forget that as a Christian you live in God's Kingdom, but you also live in The World, in Babylon. "Judging and hating" is often a ridiculous admonishment (used for purely motivated reasons) to ignore your necessary participation in the world, as a citizen. The entirety of (non-religious) law is of the world, and it's built of nothing but what society finds abhorrent. What society "hates" and "judges." You have a seat at that table.
If you take your religiously-informed judgment out of your part in civic engagement, and like-minded and like-hearted do the same, all you're left with is ungrounded atheists calling the shots.
That's what we're dealing with when it comes to "family-friendly drag shows" and the like. There's a collusion of perverted academics and their enablers in the administrative bureaucracy, supporting in each other when they say "age-appropriate and culturally-appropriate!" even though to anyone with functioning morals, ethics, and aesthetics, it's clearly not okay. These people don't share your values. Don't be fooled when they ape "Judge not!" at you just to get you to decline your responsibilities as a citizen.
It's not supposed to be easy. Christ didn't give easy commandments. He forgave the soldiers actively killing him. I don't think I could do that.
I think it goes with the story of the good Samaritan. A man saves the life of someone who hated him. Others who were considered good men did not save the man. Who was the neighbor?
Instead, it's a way to look past the accusations, find a way to take care of the problem itself and share it with others. That's not an easy thing. Saul actively killed christians when God converted him. Naaman was captain of the enemy forces when he went to Elisha. When Elisha was surrounded by a host of the enemy, he prayed for them and asked God not to slay them. He then led them into captivity after blinding them.
The answer doesn't mean don't protect yourself or ignore the problem. Satan always gives false choices and says they are the only answers.
Not religious, but I always liked the idea of Christianity when I heard some priest or pastor or some such talk about Paul.
He said something like: "Paul persecuted and caused the deaths of many Christians, but all the saints and angels were rejoicing in Heaven when he repented and was saved".
Really made me appreciate what Christians are asked to do. Sure, nobody is perfect, many are Christian in name only, but the source of their faith is very pure and it's easy to see nothing that's horrible and done in the Christianitys name is because of the Bible. I can't say the same for some other religions.
Christ didn't tell us to not judge, He told us to be prepared to be judged by the standard that we use. It's more a caution against religion than morality (so-and-so doesn't tithe enough, they're going to hell!).
There's also plenty of scriptural support for hating evil. Right now, I particularly like this bit from Jude:
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" wasn't followed up with Christ picking up a rock and chucking it to begin the stoning process. In even your example, it's pulling them out of the fire, not pushing them into it. It is still saving, salving, succoring. Which, you know, is kind of important to an all-forgiving being. But it certainly doesn't affirm "fuck 'em all, they're all evil. Brimstone, floods, and salt pillar time.", that's more Old Testament flavor.
Don't judge. Send them to the afterlife so the deity may judge them sooner.
That is astonishingly well-put.
Your friends brother should get what Jesus prescribed
That is about hypocrisy and pretending to he holier than thou. Jesus also says to rebuke your fellows and further twice says to drown pedophiles and other child predators in the sea