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Smith1980 20 points ago +20 / -0

Then don’t be Catholic. I’m sick of Christian’s who try to be cool with the world and demand that the church change its teachings

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Gizortnik 14 points ago +14 / -0

This shit doesn't even make sense and I'm basically an antitheist.

If you hate the tenets of Catholicism, stop claiming to be a Catholic.

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Smith1980 2 points ago +2 / -0

Out of curiosity how does that differ from an atheist?

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Gizortnik 0 points ago +4 / -4

An atheist basically doesn't believe in god or a deity. They can sometimes even claim "spirituality" for whatever reason.

An anti-theist is arguing that the concept of worshiping a god is actually wrong. You're not just saying there isn't a god, you're saying that people should actively stop worshiping a god.

Now, there's plenty of Communist and Marxist Anti-Theists, but I still see Leftism operating as an effective religion, even down to the Marxist argument that it's an "opiate of the masses". Frankly, I think that concept fits social justice causes very well, and the deification of George Floyd makes me argue that they aren't in opposition to religion, they are creating their own.

I take my position more for a Nietzschean approach: "God is dead, and it is we whom have killed him." If you kill God, you've got to take responsibility for that. All the utility of gods and religions, now has to come from something else. Yes, it's true that my life would be easier if I had more formal traditions and ethics to unthinkingly fall back on, but because the very notion of God is effectively dead to me, it means I had to figure it all out, and hilariously came to the same conclusions as a lot of protestants would, but from (what I would argue) are far more well reasoned and well founded foundations than a simple reliance on tradition, and hopefully a book.

My problem with that reliance on religion is that we have clearly seen it bastardized for evil, and even for Leftism, using the trust and faith of those institutions as a weapon to corrupt and destroy the lives of the innocent. Fundamentally, my argument is that churches can't be trusted with the concept of God (that which is the objective immortal truth, and the path of righteousness). The worst form of the church is when weak-willed people pass off the responsibility of interrogating their own beliefs to the authority of the church, and are headed like lemmings into evil. I refer to these people as "Jesus Take The Wheel" Christians.

I have far more in common with protestants who understand their lives as a religious journey to discover how God "reveals himself" to them through their lives on an individual basis. This is a perspective that at least operates off of the premise of responsibility to find God/Truth in things.

I prefer if they didn't ascribe all of the ways of the universe to, what is ostensibly, a magical figure. Magical Thinking must be avoided in order to live in truth, but concept of God itself is Magical Thinking.

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Smith1980 2 points ago +2 / -0

Interesting. I’m a Protestant Christian but you definitely have some interesting thoughts.

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Gizortnik 0 points ago +3 / -3

Perhaps the best way to think about it would be: reversing the question that I always got: "What if you're wrong?"

It's pretty easy for an Atheist to respond to "What if there's a God". That's pretty fucking straight forward. Then I got everything wrong and St. Peter can be like, "Hey retard, guess what?" and I'll be like, "Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. Look, how can you expect me to believe you exist when: X"

But I think reversing that question is a pretty painful one to a theist. What if, in a horrifying turn of events, I'm right? That there is no God. That there never was a God. That no prayer was answered, and never could be. That there was no afterlife. That there was neither a heaven nor hell. That there was no one to correct the wrongs of the world and bend it towards righteousness. That there is no objective morality that you can expect others to follow. That this one life was absolutely all you get. That no forgiveness can be given. That forgiveness can only be earned from your victims, and they get to chose whether or not to grant it. That every sin, immorality, and wrong action scars you permanently and forever defines who you are, even if you move beyond it. And worst of all: the world was never any other way than this. So whatever you did before you realized that this was the way of things, was wasted time and mistakes you can never get back.

It's a much more severe world than maybe anyone wants to live in. But I think it's true. And if there is a path of righteousness, then it must be a path built on truth. The world I describe is terrifying, but it also requires you to take the most responsibility, and force yourself to live in truth. You really do want to make sure that in a world like that, you don't leave your wife in a huff because you can't really know if she'll survive the trip to the grocery store, and the last thing you'll want to live with was being ashamed of how you treated her the last time you saw her alive... because there isn't a second chance.

A truthful path will be righteous, but it will also be astonishingly severe, and gruelingly difficult to bear, but it must also come with the best outcomes because you took responsibility to never make those mistakes and sins in the first place, because there was never a safety net to catch you. It's astonishingly... conservative.

If you kill God, you'd better be ready to take responsibility for that.

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Kienan 6 points ago +6 / -0

But I think reversing that question is a pretty painful one to a theist. What if, in a horrifying turn of events, I'm right? That there is no God. That there never was a God.

Gosh, than religious people might have tried to live a righteous life for nothing. Dang.

That's the thing; it doesn't matter. If the tenants are good, does it even matter if God is real? If you think that a certain way is a good way to live, what's it matter in the end?

"What if God isn't real?" really isn't that hard or painful of a question. It is what it is.

That no prayer was answered, and never could be.

Again, does it matter? Plenty of religious people feel like their prayers are answered, what really changed?

That there was no one to correct the wrongs of the world and bend it towards righteousness. That there is no objective morality that you can expect others to follow.

But, whether or not you believe in God, plenty of people will behave that way anyway. I don't really see a huge distinction or some big reveal. Not everyone can change the world, but living well is certainly a good start. Whether or not you believe in God, whether or not God is real...everyone can agree that there are sinners in the world; quite a lot of them.

That forgiveness can only be earned from your victims, and they get to chose whether or not to grant it. That every sin, immorality, and wrong action scars you permanently and forever defines who you are, even if you move beyond it.

I think plenty of religious people realize this. Plenty of people find God after some failure or harm, and they realize that's still a part of them, but try to live better going forward. Drug addiction is a great example; there are plenty of converts through church programs. You make amends, try to move forward, but don't forget where you came from, and who you were.

And worst of all: the world was never any other way than this. So whatever you did before you realized that this was the way of things, was wasted time and mistakes you can never get back.

What time was wasted?

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DangerCat 2 points ago +2 / -0

Gizortnik, while usually very eloquent and balanced in his thought, gets extremely acerbic and vitriolic when talking about Science (tm). I think we've found his religion.

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Gizortnik 1 point ago +1 / -0

I had to come back to this because I was closing old browser tabs, and it matters.

If I have zealotry u/DangerCat , it's not The Science, it's truth. If you had read more of my comments, you'd know damn well my position on "I Fucking Love Science" people.

Back to you Kienan.

The existence of your God matters because it is the very core premise of your entire moral framework. If you don't know if God exists, you're not a Christian. Morality must stem from that construct. Otherwise, it stems from... well, there is no Christian answer; there can't be. If God doesn't exist, nothing of what you believe makes any sense, nor is it well founded in anything.

Again, does it matter? Plenty of religious people feel like their prayers are answered, what really changed?

You're missing the point. I'm emphasizing the alternative. It doesn't matter that it feels like. It wasn't. None ever has, and ever will, from anyone. I'm not asking you to defend the idea that other people think prayers works. I'm saying, let us assert that there is no God. By definition, it does not, and can not work. You are doing something that is nothing more than a magical incantation. You are doing something just as ridiculous, useless, and wasteful as 'witches' in Portland. If we assert that God does not exist, and we expound from that. Prayer is no different from "casting Magic Missile". Some of the most meaningful and intimate efforts you have made in your most desperate times of your life, would have been the acts of a silly person deluding themselves into thinking that someone else was going to help them.

I can't imagine that that wouldn't be a painful experience.

But, whether or not you believe in God, plenty of people will behave that way anyway

If you think morality isn't objective, then you aren't religious at all. Not only are you not Christian, you wouldn't even fall into any Abrahamic religion.

I think plenty of religious people realize this.

Again, no religious person would believe that, particularly a Christian. God's forgiveness, is literally the whole point behind why man is allowed to live at all. The greatest gift of The Christ is his forgiveness of all men, of all sin, forever, at the cost of his own life. The value of forgiveness through God, even if your victim isn't involved, is what relieves you of your burden.

If there is no forgiveness, then you have no choice but to live with that burden, forever. It is the entire purpose for why you would worship Him.

What time was wasted?

All of it. Every prayer, every ceremony, every incantation, every second you spent reading, every debate, every donation, every festival, all of it.

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LauriThorne 4 points ago +4 / -0

If you're right I lived a good life trying to help people and at the end nothing happens.

If I'm right you go to hell.

This is not the argument you think it is.

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Gizortnik -3 points ago +1 / -4

Did you?

Or did you just say you were a good person because someone told you that you were?

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Deceitful_Fox 3 points ago +3 / -0

If you're an anti-theist, you must believe that it would be better for everyone to stop believing in religions. You're not just ambivalent about what other people do, you have an active interest in stopping them from believing. Is this a legitimate framing of your opinion?

If so, I don't know know how you can believe that. Do you honestly think the average person (or even the above-average person) is capable or even interested in building their own moral framework and metaphysical view of reality? Strip a man of his religious foundation and you don't create a logical, self directed Übermensch, you create a scared, confused, and easily led fool desperate for a framework with which to interpret his existence. I would say look back at the 20th century for evidence of that, but we have had a stark reminder of how malleable the general public is in the past few years, so you don't even need to go back that far.

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Gizortnik 2 points ago +2 / -0

Is this a legitimate framing of your opinion?

Yes.

Do you honestly think the average person (or even the above-average person) is capable or even interested in building their own moral framework and metaphysical view of reality?

Yes. This is how the very first religions emerged.

It's not unreasonable to assume that religions emerged with the beginnings of culture in the stone age. Some of the earliest religions we know are of religions that each city independently had. As we would understand it, each city had it's own "national character", ideologies, culture, traditions, people, and perspectives. The gods of these cities quite literally lived in the cities on their highest building (normally in a statue).

These are not impossible efforts.

Most people already do this through simple experience and then try to rationalize a consistent belief system based on that. Most people also are already inculturated into the society they live in, regardless of whether they are atheists or not.

Moreover, the most difficult effort would be to construct one "out of pure reason". Sure, that's difficult, but mostly it requires introspection. At some point you have to make some fundamental choices on what your fundamental principles are going to be, and then you are going to construct your own narrative of the world around you as you go, living your experiences.

This is already the majority of situations for most people.

Strip a man of his religious foundation and you don't create a logical, self directed Übermensch, you create a scared, confused, and easily led fool desperate for a framework with which to interpret his existence

You're referencing Nietzsche, but you're literally missing his point. Christianity (in particular), but most religions in general, are Slave Mentalities.

If you strip a religious person of his religion, he finds another religion, to cater to his Slave Mentality. The entire point about "God is dead, and it is we whom have killed him." is a warning that you would actually need to remove that Slave Mentality in order to live without God. Otherwise, exactly what he said would happen, happens. We live in the world we do now.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened to a lot of atheists from the 2000's, and why Leftists attack religion so fervently. They are attempting to replace themselves as the elites of society, because they have a Master Mentality and are seeking to use their will to impose on those with a Slave Mentality, and those with a Slave Mentality are all too happy to accept.

There is no reason to declare that humanity must be scared, confused, mislead fools without a symbol to tell them what to do. In fact, that's the point. Many sadistic people with a Master Mentality cultivate that Slave Mentality in people in order to protect their power and status. It's important to destroy that conduct, but we also have to undermine it by broadening just how many people have a Master Mentality.

People don't need gods. They just think they do, because someone is telling them that they do. It doesn't have to be this way.

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Smith1980 2 points ago +2 / -0

Well if there is nothing I wouldn’t know. Granted my belief is based on faith but nobody can truly say what happens after death with full certainty. Even those with NDE experiences. While I believe them it all could be in the mind. I’ve had some paranormal experiences that lead me to believe there is more to life than three physical dimensions. God has always made sense to me but I’ve been going to church as long as I can remember and most of my life life has been mostly traditional/Christian areas.

Even with discoveries on quantum physics or consciousness, you don’t think there could be more outside our physical reality?

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Gizortnik 2 points ago +2 / -0

I've studies physics, so to be honest, it's shown me where God isn't.

We already exist in at least four dimensions. The many fields that intersect with spacetime are very interesting, but none of them provide a God. God is a literary device, not a scientific one. A tool to help you in right-ordering yourself and the world around you. God can not be found among muons subatomic particles, the colors of Quantum Chromodynamics, or among the binary pulsars of the galaxy.

God will not be found in science, because science tells you about the material world.

I too have had paranormal experiences, I remain convinced that the "arrow of time" is merely a perception, and that reverse causality seems to be absolutely possible. That humans may even have some basic capability of premonition, because time is only an axis of spacetime and isn't the barrier people think it is.

But God still isn't going to be found there either.

As for consciousness...

The thing which you are is an humanoid ecosystem designed to be a self-contained unit for survival and perpetuation of the ecosysem of many different life forms within the thing which you are.

"You" are a brilliant evolutionary creation. The body and it's ecosystem of life isn't capable of chemically or physically detecting enough information to respond correctly to stimuli. Instead "You" are an abstract creation, built to use pattern-recognition and long-term time preference to survive longer and prosper more than any other lifeform that has ever existed. "You" are quite the accomplishment. "You" are an abstraction, a metaphysical construct in a fully material world. "You" are designed to help your material form survive as long as possible. That thing which you are, needs "Your" help. One of "Your" greatest advantages is "your" ability to abstract and create narratives to understand the information presented by the world, but never forget that "Your" dynamic and abstract nature exists to benefit the thing in which you are. "You" have been granted a moment of existence, but with that comes an obligation to the thing which you are. "You" must help yourself. Yourself needs "You".

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Guyven 16 points ago +16 / -0

Nuns tacitly admitting their virginal status is less technical and more reputational. So long as they get that abort, who cares, didn't count. I guess the title of 'nun' doesn't mean what it used to mean.

"Jesus trusted women. We do too," means what exactly? Trust us not to murder by retaining our access to legal murder? Your position is untenable as a Christian, Catholic, nun, or even as an isolated logical framework.

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deleted 15 points ago +15 / -0
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Kienan 3 points ago +3 / -0

We trusted women for 50 years and it killed more than war and homicide combined in US history, three times over…

Also, killed the country...

Not exclusively their fault, I'm not Imp-posting, but they certainly helped more than their fair share..

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Gizortnik 3 points ago +5 / -2

Nuns tacitly admitting their virginal status is less technical and more reputational.

I'm not so sure. Maybe the problem is that they, like their corporate sisters, are just a bunch of eggless, unlovable, white women.

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Ahaus667 [S] 12 points ago +12 / -0

“A church sign said, ‘Jesus trusted women. We do too,’ ” the nuns’ letter reads. “As Catholic women religious, we support Pope Francis and the social justice teachings of our Church. We respect all people and value life. In other states some doctors are afraid to provide lifesaving procedures for ectopic pregnancies or incomplete miscarriages. A child rape victim was further traumatized by having to travel across state lines to receive health care.”

The letter, which the sisters sent to various publications in Kansas, doubles as a challenge to Archbishop Joseph Naumann of Kansas City, Kan., who has been a vocal advocate of the amendment. This month, Naumann published a letter in the Wichita Eagle combating allegations by a local rabbi who argued that the amendment would allow Catholics and conservative Christians to impose their faith on others in the state — including Jewish Americans who do not believe life begins at conception.

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TentElephant 16 points ago +16 / -0

If we have to respect the right of Jews to engage in ritual child sacrifice, then we also have to respect the right of Muslims to kill Jews, and the right of Asatrus to kill anyone.

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Canuckistani_Refugee 15 points ago +15 / -0

Imposing their faith on others...like the normalization of circumcision?

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Ahaus667 [S] 12 points ago +12 / -0

Or by saying life doesn’t begin at conception, so forcing abortion to be legal would also be imposing their on others. Hilarious how that works

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Indipendepede 3 points ago +3 / -0

we support Pope Francis and the social justice teachings of our Church

Tell me you're not Christian without saying it.

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Mpetey123 7 points ago +7 / -0

Sometimes I'm so tempted to try sedevacantism.

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Smith1980 2 points ago +2 / -0

What’s that?

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Mpetey123 12 points ago +12 / -0

It's Catholics who don't think the pope is valid.

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Kaarous 6 points ago +6 / -0

Also known as real Catholics. Until there is no longer a heretic Pope, and the false reforms of the second council removed, anyway.

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tylerthet3 2 points ago +2 / -0

Do you mean Lutherans (I say somewhat sarcastically)?

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Kienan 7 points ago +7 / -0

It's really nun of their business...

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TheImpossible1 7 points ago +10 / -3

Women are loyal to only one cause.

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TomSeeSaw 4 points ago +4 / -0

The brides of Christ are finally showing their true colors. "We know best!"

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NoEyesNoGroin 7 points ago +7 / -0

Why Women Can't Be Pastors

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KingLion7 5 points ago +5 / -0

Time for another inquisition.

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Kaarous 2 points ago +2 / -0

Not the first time a bunch of nuns will get themselves excommunicated, and it won't be the last.

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FuckGenderPolitics 5 points ago +5 / -0

Who makes the decision to excommunicate? If it's Pope Cuckold these heretics aren't going anywhere.

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MegoThor 1 point ago +1 / -0

Fake nuns for the fake Pope.