Even Reddit agrees but the developer didn’t have a choice. He responded to someone asking why PayPal:
I've had my business accounts closed down by 3 major high street banks and rejected by almost every "app bank" like Wise, Revolut etc.
We've basically been forced into using PayPal to facilitate transactions as it was the last way we were able to send money to each other/pay contractors. The business account I am forced to use is with CardOneMoney. They charge me £15 a month just for having an account, 0% interest, and they charge me massive fees for every single invoice I have to pay.
What's the difference between not having them, and getting your accounts with them frozen? If you don't have them, they won't steal your money.
I understand it's difficult. I don't care. Neither should you. These people are your literal enemy and they hate you. They will steal your money if you let them, and you have no legal recourse at the moment.
Sorry, but the customers are wrong, and they need to be taught they are wrong to have a MasterCard. It sucks, but this is why this fight is the hardest of them all.
The customers don't have a choice. In almost all countries worldwide, bank debit cards support Visa or Mastercard, and most customers can only pay you with their bank card.
I refuse to support PayPal for my business on principle, even though it means I lose many customers who are only willing/able to pay via PayPal.
I support a range of alternative payment methods for the majority of my customers, but over 95% of all transactions are made with Visa/Mastercard enabled bank cards.
If stopped supporting Visa/Mastercard bank cards, I'd go out of business.
I'm not saying don't support them. I'm saying don't use them, or disincentivize them, (price show the price of transaction with Visa & MC in the checkout), offer discounts for other methods. I understand the severity of the problem.
I specifically got a checking account with American Express for exactly the Bank Card reason. If you are an online retailer, you should offer using Crypto as well. You should still be able to take checks.
I fully understand that this makes it difficult for everyone involved, but that's the problem. The convenience is why you have a monopoly seizing your assets and shutting down your business.
The convenience is why you have a monopoly seizing your assets and shutting down your business.
No. The convenience isn't why we have a monopoly. Nations not having control over their own monetary systems is the reason why these companies have a monopoly.
You don't have to sell shit if you have control over the monetary system. This is actually a task for the government. To make sure shit like that doesn't happen. To ensure that the fundamental needs of the population is met. Food, water, energy and yes even guaranteed access to the financial system as it is impossible to live in modern society without a bank account.
So, fun little fact about disincentivizing them, thats illegal. You straight up legally cannot do that in a public manner. Most countries have laws with very harsh penalties if you do so. So you'd have to do it in a roundabout way, and not in the way your example provides.
I dont have a source on hand unfortunately, and it has been a while since I last saw it (talking from memory of years ago).
From quick searching, its very complicated:
Some states ban it outright, such as Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts and Oklahoma.
Some states you cannot charge more for debit cards, period (this appears to extend outside of those 4 states).
Some states you can pass on the surcharge to the customer, must be publicly disclosed (this should be a duh), and itemized on the receipt (also should be a duh). However, some states make this more complicated, by shoving caps on the amount you can pass on.
You cannot charge more for any card purchase, period (with an exception I will mention below). AKA you cannot gain extra profit from a credit card purchase. So a Discover card will pay the same amount as a Mastercard, no discounts allowed between them (with weird caveats/loopholes here and there, but thats mostly on their end, not yours).
There is only 1 way to get around this, offering a cash discount for purchases made exclusively in cash. This is the only exception.
EDIT: This is also obviously only talkin about the USA. I have no idea how it is over in the EU. Frankly, I presume that its worse over there.
At the moment with Credit Card companies, American Express and Discover can do all the the same things MasterCard and Visa can do, and they aren't actively controlling the monetary system and forcing policy changes at companies.
This means using your CC like a debit card instead of waiting to pay off charges with a minimum balance. Amex also happens to allow checking accounts, so if you want, you can literally just get a debit card from them.
Many merchants (like Steam and GOG) allow you to make gift card / wallet purchases where they'll hold the money. If you know you're gonna spend $200 in games a year, save the money and make a block purchase ahead of time so you don't have to keep sending processing fees to MC & Visa.
You should have some amount of crypto that you are using as an investment, or that you can use to pay for items. You can just transfer money over to the crypto when you want to use it, and just use it within a short time span, like a few days. Crypto is volatile, but it's not that volatile that you can't use it in the same day or week.
You should still know how to write checks for legal purposes, but checks can still be used as acceptable payment for many things, especially anything official.
Additionally, you should still be using cash quite significantly, and you should be making sure to have a block of cash saved in a safe in your house for emergencies.
For long term saving you should still consider gold & silver, even if it's "Vault Gold" which I can go over at another time.
You ought to do all of these, but you should really consider doing at least one of these to weaken the power of these institutions.
So how does any of this get a payment FROM steam if you are forbidden from using banks? You know, the problem the developer was having in the first place.
he wasn't having problems not using banks. His problem is that the government fully debanked him with Credit regulations. That means you have no other choice but gold and cash.
His situation is far worse than just "don't use paypal"
>His corporation sends its share of the profits to my corporation's PayPal.
>I withdraw from that PayPal and into my business bank account.
Paypal should not be doing this but also, you should not be using paypal to do large business-to-business transactions. If you can't figure out how to do a direct transfer, just mail a check.
Out of all the payment processors, PayPal is THE WORST!
Even Reddit agrees but the developer didn’t have a choice. He responded to someone asking why PayPal:
I read that too. But it appears PayPal won’t do it either. And they’re really bad even when they’re “good”.
Paypal continues to be the same scumyy fuckwads they have been for 20 FUCKING YEARS.
I swear, the sheer stupidity shown by people just gonna make me bust a blood vessel.
Never, EVER leave funds in Paypal. Not even once, even for an hour. ALWAYS transfer it out to a credit union (not a bank.)
I don't make the rules. I'm just trying to save you from the heart break.
The problem is they have a monopoly in most parts of the world and once you do that, you can't receive payments from most customers.
Most people have a Visa/Mastercard card and/or PayPal account, and won't pay for your services if you can't accept those options.
What's the difference between not having them, and getting your accounts with them frozen? If you don't have them, they won't steal your money.
I understand it's difficult. I don't care. Neither should you. These people are your literal enemy and they hate you. They will steal your money if you let them, and you have no legal recourse at the moment.
Sorry, but the customers are wrong, and they need to be taught they are wrong to have a MasterCard. It sucks, but this is why this fight is the hardest of them all.
The customers don't have a choice. In almost all countries worldwide, bank debit cards support Visa or Mastercard, and most customers can only pay you with their bank card.
I refuse to support PayPal for my business on principle, even though it means I lose many customers who are only willing/able to pay via PayPal.
I support a range of alternative payment methods for the majority of my customers, but over 95% of all transactions are made with Visa/Mastercard enabled bank cards.
If stopped supporting Visa/Mastercard bank cards, I'd go out of business.
I'm not saying don't support them. I'm saying don't use them, or disincentivize them, (price show the price of transaction with Visa & MC in the checkout), offer discounts for other methods. I understand the severity of the problem.
I specifically got a checking account with American Express for exactly the Bank Card reason. If you are an online retailer, you should offer using Crypto as well. You should still be able to take checks.
I fully understand that this makes it difficult for everyone involved, but that's the problem. The convenience is why you have a monopoly seizing your assets and shutting down your business.
No. The convenience isn't why we have a monopoly. Nations not having control over their own monetary systems is the reason why these companies have a monopoly.
Yeah, and how did they sell that?
Literally this is what MasterCard is doing in Africa: intentionally displacing national currencies with Mastercard.
You don't have to sell shit if you have control over the monetary system. This is actually a task for the government. To make sure shit like that doesn't happen. To ensure that the fundamental needs of the population is met. Food, water, energy and yes even guaranteed access to the financial system as it is impossible to live in modern society without a bank account.
So, fun little fact about disincentivizing them, thats illegal. You straight up legally cannot do that in a public manner. Most countries have laws with very harsh penalties if you do so. So you'd have to do it in a roundabout way, and not in the way your example provides.
I'm not aware of those. Got an example?
I dont have a source on hand unfortunately, and it has been a while since I last saw it (talking from memory of years ago).
From quick searching, its very complicated:
Some states ban it outright, such as Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts and Oklahoma.
Some states you cannot charge more for debit cards, period (this appears to extend outside of those 4 states).
Some states you can pass on the surcharge to the customer, must be publicly disclosed (this should be a duh), and itemized on the receipt (also should be a duh). However, some states make this more complicated, by shoving caps on the amount you can pass on.
You cannot charge more for any card purchase, period (with an exception I will mention below). AKA you cannot gain extra profit from a credit card purchase. So a Discover card will pay the same amount as a Mastercard, no discounts allowed between them (with weird caveats/loopholes here and there, but thats mostly on their end, not yours).
There is only 1 way to get around this, offering a cash discount for purchases made exclusively in cash. This is the only exception.
EDIT: This is also obviously only talkin about the USA. I have no idea how it is over in the EU. Frankly, I presume that its worse over there.
I've said it before, but telling people to stop using things without also mentioning the alternatives is pointless.
And frankly, in this case we don't have meaningful alternatives to paypal.
I did elsewhere in this thread.
"just debank yourself so they can't debank you"
"but also then you're fucked for modem life"
No. Don't use enemy banks and be your own bank.
You need to save money and pay for money using alternative means.
Do you have any alternatives to propose?
At the moment with Credit Card companies, American Express and Discover can do all the the same things MasterCard and Visa can do, and they aren't actively controlling the monetary system and forcing policy changes at companies.
This means using your CC like a debit card instead of waiting to pay off charges with a minimum balance. Amex also happens to allow checking accounts, so if you want, you can literally just get a debit card from them.
Many merchants (like Steam and GOG) allow you to make gift card / wallet purchases where they'll hold the money. If you know you're gonna spend $200 in games a year, save the money and make a block purchase ahead of time so you don't have to keep sending processing fees to MC & Visa.
You should have some amount of crypto that you are using as an investment, or that you can use to pay for items. You can just transfer money over to the crypto when you want to use it, and just use it within a short time span, like a few days. Crypto is volatile, but it's not that volatile that you can't use it in the same day or week.
You should still know how to write checks for legal purposes, but checks can still be used as acceptable payment for many things, especially anything official.
Additionally, you should still be using cash quite significantly, and you should be making sure to have a block of cash saved in a safe in your house for emergencies.
For long term saving you should still consider gold & silver, even if it's "Vault Gold" which I can go over at another time.
You ought to do all of these, but you should really consider doing at least one of these to weaken the power of these institutions.
So how does any of this get a payment FROM steam if you are forbidden from using banks? You know, the problem the developer was having in the first place.
he wasn't having problems not using banks. His problem is that the government fully debanked him with Credit regulations. That means you have no other choice but gold and cash.
His situation is far worse than just "don't use paypal"
What should we use, then?
Money order in the mail like the 80s
That would be a stupidly gigantic negative impact of sales.
That's the price gizornik willing to pay
https://kotakuinaction2.win/p/19BtPuts1q/x/c/4eVLjMd8xXO
I guess steam cards paid in cash is a valid option.
Discover and American Express only works in the USA.
Fair enough with Discover and Amex, but I suspect there are probably others in some other countries.
I think you can do bank transfers to Steam and GOG wallets, but I'm not sure. Imma start doing it though.
>Steam pays lead developer.
>Lead developer takes money into his corporation.
>His corporation sends its share of the profits to my corporation's PayPal.
>I withdraw from that PayPal and into my business bank account.
Paypal should not be doing this but also, you should not be using paypal to do large business-to-business transactions. If you can't figure out how to do a direct transfer, just mail a check.