You have to love their never-ending love and respect for the source material. Evil cannot create, only corrupt.
Orcs are evil bastardizations, who are a plague when left on their own, and even worse when serving a master. They're violent thugs, with no redeeming qualities. The only time any sympathy should be given to them, is at the very point of their creation/corruption/twisting. That's the only point at which they could be considered anything close to innocent. After that, they're murder machines and dangerous pests.
Tolkien himself waffled about the exact origin of the orcs to his dying day. He has several letters and revisions of different books going back and forth. Basically he did not like the idea of there being an irredeemable living being because it conflicted with his Christianity. The only truly irredeemable beings are supposed to be Melkor and Sauron plus the various Maia that followed them as they represent Satan and his demons. But at the same time, he was adamant about the flight between good and evil being just that, good vs evil. Not mostly whitish grey vs mostly blackish grey. There are clear Good Guys and Bad Guys. The Good Guys being of course elves, humans, and dwarves, and the bad guys being orcs, goblins (he also waffled about whether orcs and goblins we're different creatures or different names for the same thing), fallen Maia like Balrogs, giant spiders, dragons, etc. Shades of grey in morality was represented by the strife between the various good races or between themselves; some men following Morgoth, the kinslaying of the Noldor, the treachery over the Nauglamir, etc. And he made a point that the true source of all of these things, no matter how many steps it took along the way, could be traced back to some deceit or trick by Morgoth (ie the lies of Satan and the temptation to sin). Orcs were not included in that as they were supposed to be nameless mobs of generic villain footsoldiers the Good Guys could fight as Tolkien's representation of the battle between good and evil was actual fighting in battle, not the spiritual battle his Christian belief teaches.
So, interestingly, I don't think it was ever stated where Ungoliant came from, and all the giant spiders were supposed to be descended from her. She's powerful enough that Morgoth fears her, something which I think can only be said of her, maybe two of the Valar (Tulkas and Manwe, I think), and Eru*. I'm not sure there's an explanation for her origins that's completely consistent, but I think it's most likely that she's a creation of Melkor's part in the music that gained power by eating other powerful things, and not a fallen Maia.
dragons
I'm pretty sure these were twisted beasts (or twisted copies of beasts) in Tolkien's legendarium, but I don't think (as you mentioned) he ever fully nailed everything down, so I could be mistaken on this point.
*There are several tales in Tolkien's legendarium where an exceptional person punches above their weight, and I might be forgetting a case where a Maia, Elf, Dwarf, or Man managed to make Morgoth afraid, so please correct me if I'm wrong on this particular point.
My use of comas wasn't clear. It is intended to mean, fallen maia, as well as giant spiders as well as dragons,etc
I believe off the top of my head the only time Melkor was afraid of a non Ainur being such as a man, elf, etc was his fight with Fingolfin. But I'm not 100% confident in my recollection.
I couldn't remember if that fight was vs Melkor/Morgoth or one of the ancient dragons. But I was pretty sure there was a point where one of the descendants of Feanor made Morgoth deeply regret his decisions with the Silmarils.
The writers can't fucking help themselves. Holy fuck.
There's no fucking gray area or relativism in Tolkien! It's good versus evil. Post modernist shitlibs can't fucking grasp that. If the protagonists are against something, that something of course must be marginalized and a poor oppressed angel.
The goblins outnumber men! They would wipe every village and town off the face of Middle Earth. There is no 'nuance' here. They don't make treaties. They can't write. They only stop plundering and eating you if you kill enough of them. Hollywood, STOP.
This is why we can't even have alignment systems anymore and I really do believe it's one of the big reasons why game devs got rid of them under the guise of ambiguity. Pretending it's some kind of clever commentary on morality when in reality it's shit writing and they're so infantile they can't write a classic good/evil story because the thought of that triggers them like with that journalist who tried to pretend Batman beating up criminals was a bad thing because he's a billionaire.
You're looking at two members of a race of 'cannibals', except it's technically speaking not cannibalism, because eating humans isn't consuming the flesh of members of the same species. :')
Elevated humanitarian ideals mean nothing in a brutal 'Medieval' period where you're fighting for your life against a race that can out breed you and is hellbent on your destruction.
Orcs and Goblins may refer to the same thing, maybe I'm not deep enough in the lore but my understanding is that they breed through the vats. Could only apply to the Uruks though
I thought the mud pits were them EXCAVATING Uruks (the corrupted elves) imprisoned within the earth. There was that whole one-sided dialogue with Saruman feeding that Uruk's thirst for vengeance.
Nah, that was just how Jackson decided to portray Saruman's creation of the Uruk-hais. As I recall, they were actually just a crossbred race of orks imbued with some of his power.
Wow, I was really off the mark with what I said. I'm just getting back from seeing the extended edition at my local theater, and I must've misremembered what Saruman was saying- it was the Orcs that were corrupted elves, and the Uruk-hai were not imprisoned in the earth, those mudpits really were breeding vats or something, Gandalf was recounting "crossbreeding Orcs and Goblins" to create Sauron's army of Uruk-hai.
They can and not just with one another, Morgoth was able to breed especially degenerate Men with his orcs to produce half-orcs/'goblin-men' in the First Age and Saruman did it again (using Dunlendings for the human half) in the Third Age. They served as elite troops & spies, IIRC one reported on the Hobbits' movements at Bree.
You have to love their never-ending love and respect for the source material. Evil cannot create, only corrupt.
Orcs are evil bastardizations, who are a plague when left on their own, and even worse when serving a master. They're violent thugs, with no redeeming qualities. The only time any sympathy should be given to them, is at the very point of their creation/corruption/twisting. That's the only point at which they could be considered anything close to innocent. After that, they're murder machines and dangerous pests.
The weird thing is to these ppl orcs deserve sympathy but nationalists somehow don't
That's how fucked up their thinking is
Satan loves perversion and corruption
Calling it thinking? That's amusing.
Also, if they happen to be using “orcs” as slang for “Russians,” it’s appropriate to laugh at videos of their deaths.
Tolkien himself waffled about the exact origin of the orcs to his dying day. He has several letters and revisions of different books going back and forth. Basically he did not like the idea of there being an irredeemable living being because it conflicted with his Christianity. The only truly irredeemable beings are supposed to be Melkor and Sauron plus the various Maia that followed them as they represent Satan and his demons. But at the same time, he was adamant about the flight between good and evil being just that, good vs evil. Not mostly whitish grey vs mostly blackish grey. There are clear Good Guys and Bad Guys. The Good Guys being of course elves, humans, and dwarves, and the bad guys being orcs, goblins (he also waffled about whether orcs and goblins we're different creatures or different names for the same thing), fallen Maia like Balrogs, giant spiders, dragons, etc. Shades of grey in morality was represented by the strife between the various good races or between themselves; some men following Morgoth, the kinslaying of the Noldor, the treachery over the Nauglamir, etc. And he made a point that the true source of all of these things, no matter how many steps it took along the way, could be traced back to some deceit or trick by Morgoth (ie the lies of Satan and the temptation to sin). Orcs were not included in that as they were supposed to be nameless mobs of generic villain footsoldiers the Good Guys could fight as Tolkien's representation of the battle between good and evil was actual fighting in battle, not the spiritual battle his Christian belief teaches.
So, interestingly, I don't think it was ever stated where Ungoliant came from, and all the giant spiders were supposed to be descended from her. She's powerful enough that Morgoth fears her, something which I think can only be said of her, maybe two of the Valar (Tulkas and Manwe, I think), and Eru*. I'm not sure there's an explanation for her origins that's completely consistent, but I think it's most likely that she's a creation of Melkor's part in the music that gained power by eating other powerful things, and not a fallen Maia.
I'm pretty sure these were twisted beasts (or twisted copies of beasts) in Tolkien's legendarium, but I don't think (as you mentioned) he ever fully nailed everything down, so I could be mistaken on this point.
*There are several tales in Tolkien's legendarium where an exceptional person punches above their weight, and I might be forgetting a case where a Maia, Elf, Dwarf, or Man managed to make Morgoth afraid, so please correct me if I'm wrong on this particular point.
My use of comas wasn't clear. It is intended to mean, fallen maia, as well as giant spiders as well as dragons,etc
I believe off the top of my head the only time Melkor was afraid of a non Ainur being such as a man, elf, etc was his fight with Fingolfin. But I'm not 100% confident in my recollection.
I couldn't remember if that fight was vs Melkor/Morgoth or one of the ancient dragons. But I was pretty sure there was a point where one of the descendants of Feanor made Morgoth deeply regret his decisions with the Silmarils.
Nerrrrrd.....but thank you, that was very well written.
The Israel/Palestine thing backfired because half the DNC is financed by Muslims.
Comment Removed for: Rule 16 - Identity Attacks
Schizo-posting that non-whites and non-straights are violent thugs, murder machines, dangerous pests, and pedophiles.
Where's the lie?
Truth is a violation of rule 16 comrade.
And some, I assume, are good people
So like Democrat voters manipulated into violence during BLM?
The writers can't fucking help themselves. Holy fuck.
There's no fucking gray area or relativism in Tolkien! It's good versus evil. Post modernist shitlibs can't fucking grasp that. If the protagonists are against something, that something of course must be marginalized and a poor oppressed angel.
The goblins outnumber men! They would wipe every village and town off the face of Middle Earth. There is no 'nuance' here. They don't make treaties. They can't write. They only stop plundering and eating you if you kill enough of them. Hollywood, STOP.
This is why we can't even have alignment systems anymore and I really do believe it's one of the big reasons why game devs got rid of them under the guise of ambiguity. Pretending it's some kind of clever commentary on morality when in reality it's shit writing and they're so infantile they can't write a classic good/evil story because the thought of that triggers them like with that journalist who tried to pretend Batman beating up criminals was a bad thing because he's a billionaire.
It's like the writers of Rings of Power are subscribed to the Daily Gondor, not realizing it was satire.
You're looking at two members of a race of 'cannibals', except it's technically speaking not cannibalism, because eating humans isn't consuming the flesh of members of the same species. :')
Elevated humanitarian ideals mean nothing in a brutal 'Medieval' period where you're fighting for your life against a race that can out breed you and is hellbent on your destruction.
Tolkien orcs don't even "breed" they're manufactured in vats, they're basically organic battle droids.
Really, though? Thought both Orcs and Goblins could breed.
Orcs and Goblins may refer to the same thing, maybe I'm not deep enough in the lore but my understanding is that they breed through the vats. Could only apply to the Uruks though
Thats just the movies (mud pits). First Orcs were corrupted elves that then proceeded to breed like everything else.
I thought the mud pits were them EXCAVATING Uruks (the corrupted elves) imprisoned within the earth. There was that whole one-sided dialogue with Saruman feeding that Uruk's thirst for vengeance.
Nah, that was just how Jackson decided to portray Saruman's creation of the Uruk-hais. As I recall, they were actually just a crossbred race of orks imbued with some of his power.
Wow, I was really off the mark with what I said. I'm just getting back from seeing the extended edition at my local theater, and I must've misremembered what Saruman was saying- it was the Orcs that were corrupted elves, and the Uruk-hai were not imprisoned in the earth, those mudpits really were breeding vats or something, Gandalf was recounting "crossbreeding Orcs and Goblins" to create Sauron's army of Uruk-hai.
They can and not just with one another, Morgoth was able to breed especially degenerate Men with his orcs to produce half-orcs/'goblin-men' in the First Age and Saruman did it again (using Dunlendings for the human half) in the Third Age. They served as elite troops & spies, IIRC one reported on the Hobbits' movements at Bree.
I didn't know he was in San Francisco.
orcs don't even reproduce so what the fuck is that
While the asians depict orcs as raping murderous hordes.
That child is giving such an uncomfortable "knowing" look and I hate it.