There's nothing to gain for a man in marriage in the west and everything to lose. The current laws are the reason we're not having families, not someone posting about statistics on the internet.
The solution is to find women worth marrying and work to get rid of no fault divorce or move to places without it. Research prenup precedent in the place you live and make sure it gets respected.
good luck with that one. And still, people change, feelings change. Marrying her is putting a loaded gun in her hand and letting her know she'll face no bad consequences if she unloaded it into your had. Sure, you might have found the unicorn, but that's a risk that less and less man are willing to take. Rightfully so.
get rid of no fault divorce
good luck with that one. And I really mean it. I wish you all the luck in the world because without it there's no getting rid of no fault divorce. Not unless women suffer from it. Which won't happen anytime soon.
Research prenup precedent
Yap, put more responsibility on the man. Good idea. He should have researched the fucking legal system before letting the state divorce rape him.
I mean, I think you mean well but as is, marriage is a game of russian roulette and only the man has to pull the trigger. You might survive but the odds are stuck mightily against you.
Unless the deal gets altered significantly you'll see the western family and civilisation with it crumble more and more. And I think it's insulting even thinking about blaming normal men for it.
The legal system and feminists have decided that. This doesn't mean that each individual woman has decided that. It is absolutely a risk to take seriously, but I've seen too much of the good that can come from relationships, in my parents', to give up on the whole deal.
Try changing it. End no fault divorce. End alymony. End welfare for single mothers. Implement default 50/50 custody.
I'm willing to bet that it will be way more than feminist women that will screech from the bottom of their souls. The legal system and feminists may have decided it but women were perfectly willing to go along with it and have used it to screw hundreds of millions of good men over with the power they wield without any remorse whatsoever.
I've seen too much of the good that can come from relationships, in my parents', to give up on the whole deal.
You do you. I'm rather sure nobody here cares about your decisions. The whole discussion started because you implied that pointing out stats and the overall shitty deal that marriage is for men is what is destroying marriage. But it isn't.
The shitty deal is what is destroying marriage. Men walk away from it because they have little to gain and everything to lose if shit hits the fan. Men walk away from women alltogether because society managed to make even being near a woman a liability for men. The Pence-rule is a thing for a reason and feminist screeching about a perfectly sensibly rule like this is not a coincidence.
The sad thing is: Men can't fix this. Not this time. And until women really start to suffer from the consequences of their irresponsible behaviour, nothing will change. But they won't suffer until it's to late because daddy government has taken the role of the provider and transfers money from men to women with force. And I for one believe that governments will completely break down before they even try to stop giving money to women.
Hard disagree. The problem isn't that men are marrying women who plan to do this to them. The problem is that EVERY women can do this. At any moment, on a whim, risking nothing.
When a man and woman get married in the Western world, they are making two very different levels of commitment. The woman is committing to be married to this man for as long as it pleases her to do so. The man is committing to being financially beholden to this woman for as long as SHE likes.
If, at any point for the rest of their lives, she decides that she would be happier if she didn't have to look at your fucking face every day, she can demand a divorce. At the end of which, she'll get half of everything you've built so far, plus a monthly salary (for having allowed you to be married to her in the first place).
If there are kids, she gets the kids (don't worry though, you still get to pay for the kids. You don't get to raise them, but you get to pay for them).
If there's a house, she gets the house (I mean, she's got the kids, she has to have the house. Right?).
If there's a car, she gets the car (how else is she gonna transport the kids to and from the house?).
If there's a dog, she gets the fucking dog (she never even liked that dog).
IF, on the other hand, you decide, at any point, that you are soul-crushingly unhappy, and that you're gonna kill yourself if you don't get away from this woman, then you can demand a divorce. At the end of which, she'll get half of everything you've built so far, plus a monthly salary, plus the kids, the child support, the house, the car, and the fucking dog.
The problem here isn't that more and more men are behaving as though marriage is a truly terrible deal for them, it's that marriage is a truly terrible deal for men.
No matter how wonderful this woman might be, this deal doesn't get any better.
And by the time you are finished doing seven steps and months of legal work, even the most "worth it" woman will have fallen out of love and moved on because for her you are only doing this because you don't "trust her."
You just as soon tell people to invest heavy in lotto tickets with that many lucky finds.
Young women are sheep. A large amount of them have no politics but whatever the nearest alpha male has.
I can tell you from experience if they are into you enough, their "politics" melt away into yours quite quickly. They don't have principles, only obstacles they secretly want you to break through.
You won't save the west with modern women in any capacity. Feminism is a critical theory baby which means anyone who embraces it to any capacity will inherently view men as the bourgeois
Marriage was useful when women had to maintain their end of the contract. That died decades ago and now there is no actual incentive for marriage, guys get suckered in because they are stupid enough to believe modern women are looking for a partnership, not a paycheck.
That's really it. They have everything to gain from both being in the marriage and then ending it. There is literally no consequence to either for them, so they treat it as childishly as they can and run it entirely on emotion.
I'm more upset that there are so many divorces going on. If you have kids the fact that she takes half of yours is not important. If I ever divorced from my wife I would be heartbroken about the kids not the wealth shit.
You'll care about the wealth when you are bankrupt from the alimony AND child support, and then the State is knocking on your door to arrest you for not paying them because you are in fact bankrupt. Meaning you lose the chance to see them while in prison and now you visitation rights are revoked because you are an unfit parent who got arrested.
These things don't just happen in a nutshell, its a massive rigged game.
That's completely assuming she is a decent and non-vindictive woman as well, which is a big IF after a divorce.
time to get personal.... my wife left me (for a single day) about a month back, packed up the kids (8 and 5) and their toys while I was at work, called me while i was on my way home and told me she was leaving me "were just too different, your too angry at the world and our kids dont feel safe around you" .....that very same night she came back home and talked with me, saying she immediately regretted it and admitted it was an overreaction.
Ive never hit my children (despite being wailed on by my own parents growing up) we agreed early in the relationship before we had kids that smacking would be off the table... so I resort to shouting / yelling (honestly what else am I meant to do to prevent my children turning into shitheads) apparently THAT in conjunction with my love for conspiracy theories, watching alternative media like youtubers to get world news instead of MSM and the Victorian lockdowns was apparently too much for her and she took it out on me. My conspiratorial mind has a sneaking suspicion that it has something to do with her hardcore feminist mother because this all happened on the very same day she returned to work (they work together) after not seeing her in 9 months.
What struck me was that i wasnt upset that she left... I was upset that she took my fucking kids, that hurt more than anything ive ever felt, to see their rooms empty like that hollowed me out and for the first time in my life i had felt like id made a huge mistake...
A month on and im still reeling from her over the top temper tantrum and she doesnt even seem bothered... I think im in trouble....
I agree the mother is the issue, but trying to break contact between them is an ill-fated plan.
I think the conspiracy excuse is just that, an excuse. It isn't actually part of the motive.
Definitely agree with both these lines. Shes very close with her mother (to the point of controlling) because her father left when she was 13 so her distrust of men comes from 2 angles, her relationship with her father and the overbearing nature of her feminist mother... the second was fine for the first 7 years, but since her mothers caught wind of my political leanings and internet activities I feel like a targeted enemy... hopefully its just my paranoia
They subvert the west in many ways but encouraging MGTOW is definitely not one of them.
These fuckers constantly push interracialism. These fuckers make a killing off debt and wasteful spending. They would never push men into a lifestyle in which men would be spending less money in the financial system that they control.
How the fuck do they benefit from having men opting out of the system and not wasting their money on frivolous shit that women always buy using men's money?
Think about this, they make a killing off the wedding industrial complex which includes so many industries such as diamond jewelry, designer clothing, expensive vacations, oversized housing, overpriced liquor and fancy restaurants.
Yet you don't see how pushing for white men to be forever celibate or hedonistic manwhores until they die is subverting the strong Christian family of 1 man, 1 woman, and as many children as God blesses them with?
I can see that you are a traditional conservative. It is sadly becoming apparent that the notion of a strong Christian family is utterly dead in the west now with how women are incentivized by nearly every institution to get divorced.
I personally am a MGTOW because I can see that marriage is completely against men in terms of the endless risks and no benefits.
You are saying that despite all the evidence indicating marriage is a raw deal for men you want men to still do it anyway and self-sacrifice immensely solely for demographics?
Please feel free to live your life the way you want but MGTOW is a calculation of risk vs benefits.
The subversive filth are not the ones responsible for the growth of MGTOW, you have western women and their abhorrent behavior along with a gynocentric society to thank for that. I live a peaceful life of no dating, no hookups, no cohabitation and no marriage. My minimalistic lifestyle is not what these subversive parasites want to promote.
you want men to still do it anyway and self-sacrifice immensely solely for demographics?
Self sacrifice for the good of the tribe is pretty much the oldest human tradition and it has always fallen on men to do so. I'd rather the sacrifice be taken on in a way that results in the fucked up system changing so we don't have to worry about marriage being a threat, but I don't know that the west can achieve that system overhaul at this moment in time.
But forcing men into slavery won't cut it either.
There's nothing to gain for a man in marriage in the west and everything to lose. The current laws are the reason we're not having families, not someone posting about statistics on the internet.
The solution is to find women worth marrying and work to get rid of no fault divorce or move to places without it. Research prenup precedent in the place you live and make sure it gets respected.
good luck with that one. And still, people change, feelings change. Marrying her is putting a loaded gun in her hand and letting her know she'll face no bad consequences if she unloaded it into your had. Sure, you might have found the unicorn, but that's a risk that less and less man are willing to take. Rightfully so.
good luck with that one. And I really mean it. I wish you all the luck in the world because without it there's no getting rid of no fault divorce. Not unless women suffer from it. Which won't happen anytime soon.
Yap, put more responsibility on the man. Good idea. He should have researched the fucking legal system before letting the state divorce rape him.
I mean, I think you mean well but as is, marriage is a game of russian roulette and only the man has to pull the trigger. You might survive but the odds are stuck mightily against you.
Unless the deal gets altered significantly you'll see the western family and civilisation with it crumble more and more. And I think it's insulting even thinking about blaming normal men for it.
I ain't saying it's fair what men have to go through to protect ourselves. I'm saying it's necessary.
And I say it's not worth the hassle. Women have decided that they don't need to uphold their side of the contract. Men should do the same.
The legal system and feminists have decided that. This doesn't mean that each individual woman has decided that. It is absolutely a risk to take seriously, but I've seen too much of the good that can come from relationships, in my parents', to give up on the whole deal.
Try changing it. End no fault divorce. End alymony. End welfare for single mothers. Implement default 50/50 custody.
I'm willing to bet that it will be way more than feminist women that will screech from the bottom of their souls. The legal system and feminists may have decided it but women were perfectly willing to go along with it and have used it to screw hundreds of millions of good men over with the power they wield without any remorse whatsoever.
You do you. I'm rather sure nobody here cares about your decisions. The whole discussion started because you implied that pointing out stats and the overall shitty deal that marriage is for men is what is destroying marriage. But it isn't.
The shitty deal is what is destroying marriage. Men walk away from it because they have little to gain and everything to lose if shit hits the fan. Men walk away from women alltogether because society managed to make even being near a woman a liability for men. The Pence-rule is a thing for a reason and feminist screeching about a perfectly sensibly rule like this is not a coincidence.
The sad thing is: Men can't fix this. Not this time. And until women really start to suffer from the consequences of their irresponsible behaviour, nothing will change. But they won't suffer until it's to late because daddy government has taken the role of the provider and transfers money from men to women with force. And I for one believe that governments will completely break down before they even try to stop giving money to women.
"get rid of no fault divorce or move to places without it."
Both of these things are met with heavy resistance from tradcons.
Hard disagree. The problem isn't that men are marrying women who plan to do this to them. The problem is that EVERY women can do this. At any moment, on a whim, risking nothing.
When a man and woman get married in the Western world, they are making two very different levels of commitment. The woman is committing to be married to this man for as long as it pleases her to do so. The man is committing to being financially beholden to this woman for as long as SHE likes.
If, at any point for the rest of their lives, she decides that she would be happier if she didn't have to look at your fucking face every day, she can demand a divorce. At the end of which, she'll get half of everything you've built so far, plus a monthly salary (for having allowed you to be married to her in the first place).
If there are kids, she gets the kids (don't worry though, you still get to pay for the kids. You don't get to raise them, but you get to pay for them).
If there's a house, she gets the house (I mean, she's got the kids, she has to have the house. Right?).
If there's a car, she gets the car (how else is she gonna transport the kids to and from the house?).
If there's a dog, she gets the fucking dog (she never even liked that dog).
IF, on the other hand, you decide, at any point, that you are soul-crushingly unhappy, and that you're gonna kill yourself if you don't get away from this woman, then you can demand a divorce. At the end of which, she'll get half of everything you've built so far, plus a monthly salary, plus the kids, the child support, the house, the car, and the fucking dog.
The problem here isn't that more and more men are behaving as though marriage is a truly terrible deal for them, it's that marriage is a truly terrible deal for men.
No matter how wonderful this woman might be, this deal doesn't get any better.
And by the time you are finished doing seven steps and months of legal work, even the most "worth it" woman will have fallen out of love and moved on because for her you are only doing this because you don't "trust her."
You just as soon tell people to invest heavy in lotto tickets with that many lucky finds.
Lotto you only gotta win once. Women you gotta win 5+ times to have a decent chance, and then win everyday until you die.
Young women are sheep. A large amount of them have no politics but whatever the nearest alpha male has.
I can tell you from experience if they are into you enough, their "politics" melt away into yours quite quickly. They don't have principles, only obstacles they secretly want you to break through.
You won't save the west with modern women in any capacity. Feminism is a critical theory baby which means anyone who embraces it to any capacity will inherently view men as the bourgeois
yes, but after a divorce, you are back to square one. so better don't start one at all.
id argue that your probably worse off after a divorce, especially if there are children involved
You aren't going to save the west by getting divorce raped either.
Marriage right now is a completely loser's game for men.
He's not interested in saving anything. He is a purely destructive force. The best we can hope to do is to aim him in a useful direction.
Yes.
You are consumed by hatred.
Marriage was useful when women had to maintain their end of the contract. That died decades ago and now there is no actual incentive for marriage, guys get suckered in because they are stupid enough to believe modern women are looking for a partnership, not a paycheck.
That's really it. They have everything to gain from both being in the marriage and then ending it. There is literally no consequence to either for them, so they treat it as childishly as they can and run it entirely on emotion.
And just so that the virgins and bachelors don't feel left behind, we made the state into a racket to transfer wealth from men to women as well.
I'm more upset that there are so many divorces going on. If you have kids the fact that she takes half of yours is not important. If I ever divorced from my wife I would be heartbroken about the kids not the wealth shit.
You'll care about the wealth when you are bankrupt from the alimony AND child support, and then the State is knocking on your door to arrest you for not paying them because you are in fact bankrupt. Meaning you lose the chance to see them while in prison and now you visitation rights are revoked because you are an unfit parent who got arrested.
These things don't just happen in a nutshell, its a massive rigged game.
That's completely assuming she is a decent and non-vindictive woman as well, which is a big IF after a divorce.
If she is taking half, chances are the kids are already ruined from the pre divorce fights. Im talking from experience.
time to get personal.... my wife left me (for a single day) about a month back, packed up the kids (8 and 5) and their toys while I was at work, called me while i was on my way home and told me she was leaving me "were just too different, your too angry at the world and our kids dont feel safe around you" .....that very same night she came back home and talked with me, saying she immediately regretted it and admitted it was an overreaction.
Ive never hit my children (despite being wailed on by my own parents growing up) we agreed early in the relationship before we had kids that smacking would be off the table... so I resort to shouting / yelling (honestly what else am I meant to do to prevent my children turning into shitheads) apparently THAT in conjunction with my love for conspiracy theories, watching alternative media like youtubers to get world news instead of MSM and the Victorian lockdowns was apparently too much for her and she took it out on me. My conspiratorial mind has a sneaking suspicion that it has something to do with her hardcore feminist mother because this all happened on the very same day she returned to work (they work together) after not seeing her in 9 months.
What struck me was that i wasnt upset that she left... I was upset that she took my fucking kids, that hurt more than anything ive ever felt, to see their rooms empty like that hollowed me out and for the first time in my life i had felt like id made a huge mistake...
A month on and im still reeling from her over the top temper tantrum and she doesnt even seem bothered... I think im in trouble....
Definitely agree with both these lines. Shes very close with her mother (to the point of controlling) because her father left when she was 13 so her distrust of men comes from 2 angles, her relationship with her father and the overbearing nature of her feminist mother... the second was fine for the first 7 years, but since her mothers caught wind of my political leanings and internet activities I feel like a targeted enemy... hopefully its just my paranoia
MGTOW is just another avenue of (((subversion.))) Don't fall for it.
Bruh.
They subvert the west in many ways but encouraging MGTOW is definitely not one of them.
These fuckers constantly push interracialism. These fuckers make a killing off debt and wasteful spending. They would never push men into a lifestyle in which men would be spending less money in the financial system that they control.
How the fuck do they benefit from having men opting out of the system and not wasting their money on frivolous shit that women always buy using men's money?
Think about this, they make a killing off the wedding industrial complex which includes so many industries such as diamond jewelry, designer clothing, expensive vacations, oversized housing, overpriced liquor and fancy restaurants.
It isn't about money, it's about your extinction
They are pushing interracial messages to move towards the extinction of whites.
I am not white and I can clearly see they keep pushing to make sure whites breed solely with other races.
Yet you don't see how pushing for white men to be forever celibate or hedonistic manwhores until they die is subverting the strong Christian family of 1 man, 1 woman, and as many children as God blesses them with?
I can see that you are a traditional conservative. It is sadly becoming apparent that the notion of a strong Christian family is utterly dead in the west now with how women are incentivized by nearly every institution to get divorced.
I personally am a MGTOW because I can see that marriage is completely against men in terms of the endless risks and no benefits.
You are saying that despite all the evidence indicating marriage is a raw deal for men you want men to still do it anyway and self-sacrifice immensely solely for demographics?
Please feel free to live your life the way you want but MGTOW is a calculation of risk vs benefits.
The subversive filth are not the ones responsible for the growth of MGTOW, you have western women and their abhorrent behavior along with a gynocentric society to thank for that. I live a peaceful life of no dating, no hookups, no cohabitation and no marriage. My minimalistic lifestyle is not what these subversive parasites want to promote.
Self sacrifice for the good of the tribe is pretty much the oldest human tradition and it has always fallen on men to do so. I'd rather the sacrifice be taken on in a way that results in the fucked up system changing so we don't have to worry about marriage being a threat, but I don't know that the west can achieve that system overhaul at this moment in time.
Both are shit.
I'm poor as shit so my wife definitely isn't with me for the money
Only someone naive would marry nowadays, the system is rigged against men. It's better to be single and free than married and legally enslaved