Sauron is the servant of evil itself personified. He's one tiny step removed from being the purest evil that evil can be. Progs really fucking suck at this.
To be fair, the show doesn't depict Lucifer as Satan. He tried to rebel against God, and he's the ruler of hell, but he's neither evil nor responsible for evil. He's more like the angel equivalent of a spoiled teenage brat who ran away from home so he could do drugs. In the show universe, there is no such thing as good and evil. It's pretty full of itself and has a lot of normie opinions disguised as revelations, as it were, but it definitely doesn't try to claim Satan is a good guy. It claims Satan doesn't exist, which depending on who you ask could be worse.
Is that bad that you can't hate watching. Pirate the first 2 episodes and you'll get what I mean.
Nothing is like LOTR.
My biggest 2 problems are that the elves are kind of pathetic looking and the dialogue is so bad, is like a 12 year old trying to be deep.
Possible unpopular opinion here: the “Tolkienverse”… Is not the kind of world to do these “complex, allegorical explorations of character” in.
It’s simply… Not the kind of way Tolkien wrote. Especially in regards to his (essentially) immortal villains (specifically Sauron, Morgoth, Shelob and Ungoliant)…
That’s fine, but these really aren’t those kind of books.
You can do this kind of “antihero” stuff with Harry Potter. You can do it with Star Wars.
But when you start doing it with Tolkien, the Norse Sagas, or hell, The Old Testament for example, it really… Just starts to fall apart. And I really wish we wouldn’t.
I really do not think this will be looked back on favorably in the future, let’s say…
There is a lot of depth in LOTR but it follows themes that are very different from the stories that modernity wants to see. Modernity wants to see evil characters who are sympathetic and “good” characters who do bad things for good reasons (with the moral being that nobody is truly good or truly evil). On the other hand, Tolkien’s stories are about the contradictory natures of good and evil, and the seductiveness of evil that everyone struggles against.
Personally, I think Tolkien’s version is closer to reality than modernity’s. Evil deeds are just a manifestation of people’s desires; desires that are placed on the wrong things and/or pursued without consideration or restraint. Evil is actually very simple. Any perceived “complexity” is just a result of the machinations people employ to satisfy their desires. Any “good” people who are struggling with a morally grey decision are almost always struggling because the obviously right decision requires self-sacrifice (something they don’t want to do), or they simply don’t have the moral clarity to understand right from wrong.
There are some interesting, complex characters in the lore like Feanor and his children. But from what I hear this show isn't about them and they don't have those rights. Anyway this was always destined to be total garbage and I don't see why anyone is surprised.
I understand they started with plans for 5 seasons. One way or another it will have 5 seasons. However I understand they are taking a break so you may not see a new ROP season for a couple of years.
It's one thing to say "we want to show a fall from grace" which, I believe is canon, but quite another to use these examples as reference points. This is a terrible idea.
"randomly aping out of place storybeats from LOTR and GOT didn't disguise our giant feminist suppository enough for viewers to accept it so now we're gonna copy stuff from two other shows they liked too"
People don't want to admit that evil can come from powerful individuals who aren't satisfied with the power they have, because that leads to uncomfortable introspection.
There are a few concepts that cpuld have been interesting in the hands of people who are much better writers than members of the Bad Robot B team. A partially corrupted first generation elf who leads a band of orcs while still retaining a sliver of his fundamental elven nature could be a compelling character in a much better story.
I admit, it’s very… “Current era”, but it’s really not as dubious as it may perhaps at first seem (specifically because this is set in “the second age”, rather than the third, I believe)…
Though I agree with others that they will probably be unlikely to pull this off particularly successfully…
It would be a good idea only as far as it makes a good story. If they followed the books closely, this will already be the case and Sauron already has an interesting backstory.
the complexity is how much the viewer will cheer for him until they accept Walter is evil
Yeah exactly, those shows were good experiments on finding out how easily you can get the audience to root for the bad guy. They had no presumptions that the characters were "morally gray" or anything. (even though they sometimes made neutral or good choices - because they're human and not cartoon characters)
Sauron is the servant of evil itself personified. He's one tiny step removed from being the purest evil that evil can be. Progs really fucking suck at this.
It isn’t much of a stretch to go from worshipping Moloch to Sauron.
The Lucifer series ran for 6 seasons.
At least that had it baked in to the premise - what if the devil was hedonistic evil, not masochistic evil?
To be fair, the show doesn't depict Lucifer as Satan. He tried to rebel against God, and he's the ruler of hell, but he's neither evil nor responsible for evil. He's more like the angel equivalent of a spoiled teenage brat who ran away from home so he could do drugs. In the show universe, there is no such thing as good and evil. It's pretty full of itself and has a lot of normie opinions disguised as revelations, as it were, but it definitely doesn't try to claim Satan is a good guy. It claims Satan doesn't exist, which depending on who you ask could be worse.
Sauron will be an anti-hero? I can't believe how much they messed up this series.
2nd Lt Tolkien if he was still alive:
https://img.ifunny.co/images/024ebe67480b03f7b71eaec144023b648c38e26f77493996fae290e6211d2867_1.jpg
(Related: https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/329b44/today_ive_sadly_learned_that_jrr_tolkien_was_a/)
That reddit thread is so funny. Communism was very anti-religious and Tolkien was a devote Catholic but some are trying to deny that.
The amount of mind bending going on there is amazing.
Have you watched any of it? I hope they are losing money on this. They made it clear they didn’t care and they fired the Tolkien scholar
Is there any other way it can go? Isn't it one of the single most expensive shows ever made? Something like that isn't ever likely to make bank.
Add into the fact that they seem to hate actual. fans of the source material
Is that bad that you can't hate watching. Pirate the first 2 episodes and you'll get what I mean. Nothing is like LOTR. My biggest 2 problems are that the elves are kind of pathetic looking and the dialogue is so bad, is like a 12 year old trying to be deep.
I'm waiting for the Mauler supercut.
Honestly, everyone in the show was so annoying or bland or downright bad, by the fourth episode I was rooting for Sauron to win.
Possible unpopular opinion here: the “Tolkienverse”… Is not the kind of world to do these “complex, allegorical explorations of character” in.
It’s simply… Not the kind of way Tolkien wrote. Especially in regards to his (essentially) immortal villains (specifically Sauron, Morgoth, Shelob and Ungoliant)…
That’s fine, but these really aren’t those kind of books.
You can do this kind of “antihero” stuff with Harry Potter. You can do it with Star Wars.
But when you start doing it with Tolkien, the Norse Sagas, or hell, The Old Testament for example, it really… Just starts to fall apart. And I really wish we wouldn’t.
I really do not think this will be looked back on favorably in the future, let’s say…
Nothing wrong with your opinion but Amazon clearly doesn’t care about Tolkien’s work
There is a lot of depth in LOTR but it follows themes that are very different from the stories that modernity wants to see. Modernity wants to see evil characters who are sympathetic and “good” characters who do bad things for good reasons (with the moral being that nobody is truly good or truly evil). On the other hand, Tolkien’s stories are about the contradictory natures of good and evil, and the seductiveness of evil that everyone struggles against.
Personally, I think Tolkien’s version is closer to reality than modernity’s. Evil deeds are just a manifestation of people’s desires; desires that are placed on the wrong things and/or pursued without consideration or restraint. Evil is actually very simple. Any perceived “complexity” is just a result of the machinations people employ to satisfy their desires. Any “good” people who are struggling with a morally grey decision are almost always struggling because the obviously right decision requires self-sacrifice (something they don’t want to do), or they simply don’t have the moral clarity to understand right from wrong.
There are some interesting, complex characters in the lore like Feanor and his children. But from what I hear this show isn't about them and they don't have those rights. Anyway this was always destined to be total garbage and I don't see why anyone is surprised.
Shadow of War is more thematically consistent with Tolkien's works than this shit show
Of course the left would sympathize with a villain who is mainly motivated by his hatred for god and his desire to reorder the world.
Amazon has committed a billion dollars to producing 5 seasons.
I understand they started with plans for 5 seasons. One way or another it will have 5 seasons. However I understand they are taking a break so you may not see a new ROP season for a couple of years.
So, they let a woman write Lord of the Rings and it turned into some weird Elliot Rodger fanfic/propaganda piece.
It's one thing to say "we want to show a fall from grace" which, I believe is canon, but quite another to use these examples as reference points. This is a terrible idea.
"randomly aping out of place storybeats from LOTR and GOT didn't disguise our giant feminist suppository enough for viewers to accept it so now we're gonna copy stuff from two other shows they liked too"
literally a 4chan post credits scene meme
... that's actually not a bad idea.
I just seriously doubt that the team writing the script has the chops to pull it off, given how it's going so far.
No, it is a bad idea. It'd be like giving Satan a tragic backstory.
People don't want to admit that evil can come from powerful individuals who aren't satisfied with the power they have, because that leads to uncomfortable introspection.
Depends on how hard you lean into the "complexly evil" bit, I guess. It'd be interesting to see how the Maiar Mairon became Sauron the great deceiver.
But like I said, I don't think this bunch have the capability to write a screenplay capable of showing that properly.
There are a few concepts that cpuld have been interesting in the hands of people who are much better writers than members of the Bad Robot B team. A partially corrupted first generation elf who leads a band of orcs while still retaining a sliver of his fundamental elven nature could be a compelling character in a much better story.
Have you… Heard of Lucifer..??
I admit, it’s very… “Current era”, but it’s really not as dubious as it may perhaps at first seem (specifically because this is set in “the second age”, rather than the third, I believe)…
Though I agree with others that they will probably be unlikely to pull this off particularly successfully…
No I'm not a fucking catholic and I don't believe in the Bible fanfic.
Satan is evil, and that's it. Sometimes evil is evil because it's evil. Sauron doesn't need and shouldn't have a tragic backstory.
It's a terrible idea.
It would be a good idea only as far as it makes a good story. If they followed the books closely, this will already be the case and Sauron already has an interesting backstory.
Agreed. And I have very little faith in Amazon's ability to get what was written onto the screen without screwing it up wilfully.
Yeah exactly, those shows were good experiments on finding out how easily you can get the audience to root for the bad guy. They had no presumptions that the characters were "morally gray" or anything. (even though they sometimes made neutral or good choices - because they're human and not cartoon characters)