I'm a bit saddened that only two of the countries are against this. If I understand correctly, they are willing to give the EU power to hold back funding if you don't follow suit. 25ish other countries totally willing to give that power away. It won't be long and an EU country will have less autonomy than a US state.
"There is already talks behind the scenes, and I expect this to increase, to find the way out of this crisis that we are about to hit this afternoon," the diplomat said on Monday.
"Crisis" that they aren't being given complete power.
There was an agreement on a seven year budget for the EU in July, which was agreed on by everyone. Then, just recently there was an attempt to make it so that funding can be blocked for countries that do not adhere to "respect of rule of law", which I assume is the EU coming up with whatever they want. I am not sure if there is anything specific already, but there have been talks about LGBT rights and immigration, big surprise.
It is essentially the EU trying to give itself a way of strongarming countries into doing what they want.
Only Hungary and Poland opposed / blocked this in the entire EU. Not the package itself or its contents, but the "respect the rule of law" / strongarming portion (since they have agreed on the budget part in July).
Expect the narrative to be "Orban is blocking the relief package to poor suffering people".
Thankfully for Poland and Hungary they are led by actual men, unlike the rest of Europe. I'm Irish, our political elite would never even dare dissent against anything the EU propose. They are filthy little lap dogs hoping to be rewarded by the globalists in the future.
The problem with this is that there is a lot of money at stake, people do actually need it, and if the EU gets this done somehow they will be able to force everyone into doing what they want or they will sanction the country in question. Not sure if it can really be resisted in the long term.
Same shit as in the US really. The Dems kept tacking unrelated issues onto the stimulus package so they could blame Trump and the Reps for "letting the people suffer" because there was no way in hell they'd pass those.
Exactly that. It's EU blackmail. It's the same trick and pony they've always done. Cause a problem/exacerbate it, sell a cure with extortive prices.
I honestly wonder why some countries are still desperate to join, despite seeing what happened to Greece, Italy, Spain and their currencies and the strong arming over brexit (weather you agree with it or not).
I was hoping some EU'ers might chime in; but I interpret it to mean that Poland and Hungary are blocking a huge bailout to governments who have locked up their citizens as a response to corona, and thusly nuked their own economies.
Poland and Hungary disapprove of paying for that kind of intentional destruction. They don't want to be a part of that fraud. So by whatever EU parliamentary mechanism, they have gummed up a 1.5 trillion bailout to these other EU governments.
Hungary, Poland [sometimes Czech] have bucked EU overlordship repeatedly; the relationship is strained.
It took 15-20 years years to discover what kind of empire the EU was created to be. Some people are not taking kindly to their new feudal overlords.
AFAIK it's not directly about the Wu Flu budget. Brussels just added a rider because they have a hate boner for Poland and Hungary because those resist their far-left ideology: don't want mass immigration, kicked out Soros, etc.
From the article:
The rule-of-law conditionality would mean that if there is a breach of EU values and rules
The way it's named is already a lie. It's not about laws. The EU doesn't give a shit about laws if they conflict with their "values". That's what it is about: their globalist "values".
The EU wants a way to punish those who dare to object to our glorious leaders in Brussels and they're trying to make an example out of Poland and Hungary.
What many don't see to know is that the EU found their primacy/supremacy through case law. They essentially decide at the time that it would be best for them to be the last arbiters in the name functionality. How convenient.
Agreed, even the EU's founding documents were necessarily agreed by fiat after rejection in referenda in France and Holland. It's not a coincidence that the EU wishes to give the superbly obedient EU Court of Justice supreme authority everywhere it can.
This appears to be the internal counterpart to the "level playing field" they're trying to force into the Brexit negotiations - essentially, it's using legislation to establish the status of "vassal state" for anyone on the receiving end - or at least, it could be, depending on how magnanimous the EU bureaucrats are feeling.
I did chime in just a few minutes after you posted, as I have not seen your reply when I have started typing mine. This is not about the budget, or its contents, this is about forcing countries to do what you want or face a reduction on the money they get. The budget part was agreed on by everyone back in July.
the countries which join EU receive advantages and disadvantages. one of the advantages is that poorer countries are entitled to receive more EU funds. and Poland and Hungary get. one of the disadvantages is that you cannot change the form of your state from a democracy with the division of power: executive, legislative, and judiciary. in short, EU doesn't allow dictatorship inside of it.
when a country became a dictatorship in EU the other states can vote and stop the funding to go in that country or even expel the country if it gets really bad. but there is a catch. EU gave themselves as a rule that in order to single out a state all the other states must vote unanimously against. because Hungary and Poland are allied in this they don't vote against each other, unanimously can't be reached. Hungary and Poland stay safe. also even changing this rule require a unanimous vote so is a deadlock.
Hungary is de facto a dictatorship and Poland tried to become one. according to the rules of EU they are still entitled to get a shitload of EU funds but they basically ignore to abide by any obligation to stay in the EU involves. not only that but they also use the same funds to make ferocious propaganda against EU. so EU they are pretty pissed against them.
so every time there is a votation in EU to give extra funds all the fucking time this thing of rule of law is inserted to fuck over rogue states. I'm not sure of much effective, is it.
I'm an objective person. I do agree politically with all the position of Hungary and Poland leaders minus abortion. also, Hungary and Poland found the catch 22 to keep doing what they are doing legally, but I am not a fool. one thing is the campaign to get people's consensus. and one thing is getting all power of the state in a few pairs of hands.
Why do people consider Hungary or Poland a dictatorship? Do they not elect a president or a prime minister (not sure) democratically and do they not have any balances like a senate or parliament to limit their power in case they become abusive?
they aren't and they haven't tried to become on. This dude is parroting common talking points as if saying it often enough will make it a fact.
Orbans government and Kacinski's government are both democracatically elected, but the parties are very corrupt by western standards. They are shining beacons of truth and justice by the rest of the planets standards. It's just the proximity to governments that hide their corruption more skillfully that make them seem so bad.
In Poland, during previous parliament term, the ruling party had both houses of parliament and the president, thus the party chairman was de facto Sejm, Senate and the President. And since he can decide whether to publish constitutional tribunal rulings, he's also the Judiciary.
There are democratic elections, yes, every four years. In person, with having to show your ID actually. You can request to have your vote collected if there is a valid reason for it, then they bring a box to you.
Also, there is a parliament, yes. And for the most serious changes you will need a 2/3 majority for example.
Holy fuck, you're ignorant. Poland did not try to become a dicatatorship. Nothing about Poland is dictatorial. They are a democracy, lead by a party that is socially conservative and quite corrupt--but at no point have they been dictatorial. Merely generally corrupt.
I live in Poland. I don't like the reigning party, but never would I bend over to declare out my ass that Kacinski or Duda have tried to forge a dictatorship. The worst you can say about them and their sycopants is that they have used the parliament to enrich themselves.
all the dictatures claim to be democracies. and they go to a great length to save appearances, if that was not the case they would simply call themselves Kingdoms.
how Poland almost got a dictatorship? by attempting to "stacking the court".
Court-stacking is not dictatorial. It's partisan politics and in this case it was a blatant move to secure political success, but it still isn't enough to declare that PiS was attempting to create a dictatorship. Especially since both the courts and the EU managed to successfully prevent their amendments. Poland has problems, but they are not a dictatorship. PiS is corrupt, but they have not attempted to subvert the democracy so much as secure their political goals of ensuring their platform is represented whether they are in power or not. This is normal behavior for most political parties, especially those that secure a large enough majority to actually make those changes. It's sneaky, but it is standard.
you may be right in the case of Poland. but stacking the court is usually a serius hint. countries are going that way. it eventually rest of the shoulders of Poland's politicians convince their allies that is not the case.
I agree that court-stacking is a bad sign. It's a serious indication that the parties of the countries have stopped making any attempt to compromise or communicate with each other--a stage that contributes to the environment from which a dictator can rise. But It can take 100 years of partisan disagreement before such a thing, and often resolves itself.
Poland isn't obligated, either, to convince their allies that they aren't becoming a dictatorship. The only obligation for Poland is to look after Poland and to honour the terms of their alliances (which is part of looking after Poland)--to suggest otherwise is to buy into the globalist idea that countries are somehow obligated to look out for each other and that they are not in an inherit state of competition.
with regards to the recovery package the veto will achieve nothing as other countries will just come to an agreement outside of the EU and Poland/Hungary will be left with scraps
I'm a bit saddened that only two of the countries are against this. If I understand correctly, they are willing to give the EU power to hold back funding if you don't follow suit. 25ish other countries totally willing to give that power away. It won't be long and an EU country will have less autonomy than a US state.
"Crisis" that they aren't being given complete power.
I do not understand the article, what it is that they opposed? I assume that they are somehow enforcing immigration as part of that budget?
There was an agreement on a seven year budget for the EU in July, which was agreed on by everyone. Then, just recently there was an attempt to make it so that funding can be blocked for countries that do not adhere to "respect of rule of law", which I assume is the EU coming up with whatever they want. I am not sure if there is anything specific already, but there have been talks about LGBT rights and immigration, big surprise.
It is essentially the EU trying to give itself a way of strongarming countries into doing what they want.
Only Hungary and Poland opposed / blocked this in the entire EU. Not the package itself or its contents, but the "respect the rule of law" / strongarming portion (since they have agreed on the budget part in July).
Expect the narrative to be "Orban is blocking the relief package to poor suffering people".
Thankfully for Poland and Hungary they are led by actual men, unlike the rest of Europe. I'm Irish, our political elite would never even dare dissent against anything the EU propose. They are filthy little lap dogs hoping to be rewarded by the globalists in the future.
The problem with this is that there is a lot of money at stake, people do actually need it, and if the EU gets this done somehow they will be able to force everyone into doing what they want or they will sanction the country in question. Not sure if it can really be resisted in the long term.
Keep us posted on what happens.
Same shit as in the US really. The Dems kept tacking unrelated issues onto the stimulus package so they could blame Trump and the Reps for "letting the people suffer" because there was no way in hell they'd pass those.
Exactly that. It's EU blackmail. It's the same trick and pony they've always done. Cause a problem/exacerbate it, sell a cure with extortive prices.
I honestly wonder why some countries are still desperate to join, despite seeing what happened to Greece, Italy, Spain and their currencies and the strong arming over brexit (weather you agree with it or not).
The progressive elites want to join the EU to cement their positions and gain access to a larger herd of sheeple for slaughter.
I was hoping some EU'ers might chime in; but I interpret it to mean that Poland and Hungary are blocking a huge bailout to governments who have locked up their citizens as a response to corona, and thusly nuked their own economies.
Poland and Hungary disapprove of paying for that kind of intentional destruction. They don't want to be a part of that fraud. So by whatever EU parliamentary mechanism, they have gummed up a 1.5 trillion bailout to these other EU governments.
Hungary, Poland [sometimes Czech] have bucked EU overlordship repeatedly; the relationship is strained.
It took 15-20 years years to discover what kind of empire the EU was created to be. Some people are not taking kindly to their new feudal overlords.
AFAIK it's not directly about the Wu Flu budget. Brussels just added a rider because they have a hate boner for Poland and Hungary because those resist their far-left ideology: don't want mass immigration, kicked out Soros, etc.
From the article:
The way it's named is already a lie. It's not about laws. The EU doesn't give a shit about laws if they conflict with their "values". That's what it is about: their globalist "values".
The EU wants a way to punish those who dare to object to our glorious leaders in Brussels and they're trying to make an example out of Poland and Hungary.
What many don't see to know is that the EU found their primacy/supremacy through case law. They essentially decide at the time that it would be best for them to be the last arbiters in the name functionality. How convenient.
Agreed, even the EU's founding documents were necessarily agreed by fiat after rejection in referenda in France and Holland. It's not a coincidence that the EU wishes to give the superbly obedient EU Court of Justice supreme authority everywhere it can.
This appears to be the internal counterpart to the "level playing field" they're trying to force into the Brexit negotiations - essentially, it's using legislation to establish the status of "vassal state" for anyone on the receiving end - or at least, it could be, depending on how magnanimous the EU bureaucrats are feeling.
This.
I did chime in just a few minutes after you posted, as I have not seen your reply when I have started typing mine. This is not about the budget, or its contents, this is about forcing countries to do what you want or face a reduction on the money they get. The budget part was agreed on by everyone back in July.
the countries which join EU receive advantages and disadvantages. one of the advantages is that poorer countries are entitled to receive more EU funds. and Poland and Hungary get. one of the disadvantages is that you cannot change the form of your state from a democracy with the division of power: executive, legislative, and judiciary. in short, EU doesn't allow dictatorship inside of it.
when a country became a dictatorship in EU the other states can vote and stop the funding to go in that country or even expel the country if it gets really bad. but there is a catch. EU gave themselves as a rule that in order to single out a state all the other states must vote unanimously against. because Hungary and Poland are allied in this they don't vote against each other, unanimously can't be reached. Hungary and Poland stay safe. also even changing this rule require a unanimous vote so is a deadlock.
Hungary is de facto a dictatorship and Poland tried to become one. according to the rules of EU they are still entitled to get a shitload of EU funds but they basically ignore to abide by any obligation to stay in the EU involves. not only that but they also use the same funds to make ferocious propaganda against EU. so EU they are pretty pissed against them.
so every time there is a votation in EU to give extra funds all the fucking time this thing of rule of law is inserted to fuck over rogue states. I'm not sure of much effective, is it.
I'm an objective person. I do agree politically with all the position of Hungary and Poland leaders minus abortion. also, Hungary and Poland found the catch 22 to keep doing what they are doing legally, but I am not a fool. one thing is the campaign to get people's consensus. and one thing is getting all power of the state in a few pairs of hands.
Why do people consider Hungary or Poland a dictatorship? Do they not elect a president or a prime minister (not sure) democratically and do they not have any balances like a senate or parliament to limit their power in case they become abusive?
they aren't and they haven't tried to become on. This dude is parroting common talking points as if saying it often enough will make it a fact.
Orbans government and Kacinski's government are both democracatically elected, but the parties are very corrupt by western standards. They are shining beacons of truth and justice by the rest of the planets standards. It's just the proximity to governments that hide their corruption more skillfully that make them seem so bad.
In Poland, during previous parliament term, the ruling party had both houses of parliament and the president, thus the party chairman was de facto Sejm, Senate and the President. And since he can decide whether to publish constitutional tribunal rulings, he's also the Judiciary.
There are democratic elections, yes, every four years. In person, with having to show your ID actually. You can request to have your vote collected if there is a valid reason for it, then they bring a box to you.
Also, there is a parliament, yes. And for the most serious changes you will need a 2/3 majority for example.
Holy fuck, you're ignorant. Poland did not try to become a dicatatorship. Nothing about Poland is dictatorial. They are a democracy, lead by a party that is socially conservative and quite corrupt--but at no point have they been dictatorial. Merely generally corrupt.
I live in Poland. I don't like the reigning party, but never would I bend over to declare out my ass that Kacinski or Duda have tried to forge a dictatorship. The worst you can say about them and their sycopants is that they have used the parliament to enrich themselves.
Go blow smoke up your ass.
all the dictatures claim to be democracies. and they go to a great length to save appearances, if that was not the case they would simply call themselves Kingdoms.
how Poland almost got a dictatorship? by attempting to "stacking the court".
Court-stacking is not dictatorial. It's partisan politics and in this case it was a blatant move to secure political success, but it still isn't enough to declare that PiS was attempting to create a dictatorship. Especially since both the courts and the EU managed to successfully prevent their amendments. Poland has problems, but they are not a dictatorship. PiS is corrupt, but they have not attempted to subvert the democracy so much as secure their political goals of ensuring their platform is represented whether they are in power or not. This is normal behavior for most political parties, especially those that secure a large enough majority to actually make those changes. It's sneaky, but it is standard.
you may be right in the case of Poland. but stacking the court is usually a serius hint. countries are going that way. it eventually rest of the shoulders of Poland's politicians convince their allies that is not the case.
I agree that court-stacking is a bad sign. It's a serious indication that the parties of the countries have stopped making any attempt to compromise or communicate with each other--a stage that contributes to the environment from which a dictator can rise. But It can take 100 years of partisan disagreement before such a thing, and often resolves itself.
Poland isn't obligated, either, to convince their allies that they aren't becoming a dictatorship. The only obligation for Poland is to look after Poland and to honour the terms of their alliances (which is part of looking after Poland)--to suggest otherwise is to buy into the globalist idea that countries are somehow obligated to look out for each other and that they are not in an inherit state of competition.
How is Hungary a de facto dictatorship?
with regards to the recovery package the veto will achieve nothing as other countries will just come to an agreement outside of the EU and Poland/Hungary will be left with scraps