From article: "Sweden hoped herd immunity would curb COVID-19. Don't do what we did. It's not working."
They say that as there death count is in the single digits/ day and never had to suffer the consequences of lock down or forcing masks. It's all very suspect and we should not trust them.
I look at Sweden's numbers, and I see numbers comparable to places that have done phased lockdowns and shutdowns and mandatory muzzling. Or in other words, the exact same problems that existed in Sweden, existed everywhere else. Empirically speaking, Sweden "won": Same death rate as other places OF CORONA-CHAN SPECIFICALLY, while having far less death rate from things like economic downturn, which holds a very high death rate of its own.
This is because the spread was likely at its worst before any lockdowns were in place at all. They already failed to "flatten the curve" and most hospitals were able to handle it.
It's becoming far more clear that the crisis, which was still an actual crisis, has been blown out of proportion for political reasons. You only need to look at the media's stances of if somebody should wear a mask and Hydroxycholoquine.
In the UK at least the lockdowns were never about saving lives, it was to stem the flow of sick people into the hospitals and healthcare system that is drastically understaffed, underfunded, under equipped and administrated extremely poorly.
The worst part is if you ever bring it up then it's either the boomers fault (somehow despite them paying into the system) rather than say the people running it and the government for letting people access it for free who have no entitlement to do so.
Conservative government underfunded the NHS political football for a decade now in order to support bringing in privatisation. Yeah it's badly run but again, who's the people putting them in charge?
Both major parties screwed the NHS for funding - the mass introduction of PFI in hospitals came under Labour's watch, if you recall, and some trusts are still suffering under those PFI schemes.
Cause they're going to compare Sweden to Norway/Finland/Denmark because they're more culturally similar. However, they will also ignore Norways health ministry saying Norway could have achieve similar results to what it got without implementing a lockdown.
The effect of the virus on Sweden depends purely on who you ask about it. It's either ravaging the whole country and causing untold death and decay, or it's a moderate concern that's more or less been mitigated by taking sensible precautiong without trying to destroy the entire economic foundation of the country.
Basically it's an opposing expert that said it. It seems to be working for Sweden considering their very lax method of counting covid deaths (anyone who's dead within a month after their last positive test is counted as a covid death).
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means, but I will never support the government being able to force people to take something into their body against their will.
I will not undertake a medical procedure as a condition of employment. This includes temperature checks to get in the door. This is one of my red lines.
I will never support the government being able to force people to take something
That appears to be precisely the point this article is addressing: "don't allow religious or personal objections, and punish those who won't be vaccinated."
It's not even about healthcare, it seems, it's about estabilshing "We are America, you merely live here, and you will do what you are told"
It's not just being a Guinea Pig for me, it's also the whole "everyone is mandated by government to support the Healthcare Industrial Complex" angle.
I'd like to start a business that 330 million people are required to purchase my product no matter what level of quality or customer care I provide. Where do I sign up for that?
Try asking whoever runs the BBC. Its fucking insane that a shithole TV channel get to charge citizens whatever they want and its a crime not to pay. Imagine if Cat Fancy started putting magazines in your letterbox and charged you $100 a year and had the power to call the pigs if you refused to pay. Or if no matter what phone company you were with you still had to pay an additional fee to some other random company. UK seriously needs a nuke and restart.
OT: Yeah, I ain't taking it. They would have to get a bunch of pigs to physically hold me down while they jabbed me and I would be kicking and biting the entire time. Any politician who ever demanded this should be hauled off to the gallows.
I would honestly rather get China Virus than let some scumfuck hacks like Bill Gates force his poison into me. I've used Windows ME, I know how incompetent that prick is.
With Trump in office and living in a red state? No.
But I could see there being some sort of consequence for refusal under Biden. Which isn't something I would have thought 5 or 6 years ago. But seeing some of the shit they've put into place to cripple the masses with fear during the last 6 months it's hard to say.
I'd like to think that neither would force people, though... but I can't.
I'm worried that it will come down to "get vaxxed or lose your job". Not all of us are blessed with being self employed or working for based employers. Some of us the best job available is in a big box business.
I'd probably end up taking it down the line, but I wanna see how it plays out first. But if it's mandatory or they place restrictions on people who don't get it then I'm most likely going to try my best to not take it for as long as I am able.
I have reservations on the whole mRNA vaccine part of it. It's something that's apparently never been approved for human use. They're rushing the heck out of it. How thorough is the testing? How often does covid-19 mutate? Will antibody-dependent enhancement be an issue down the line when covid-20 comes out next year for $60? As in: what if the vaccine ends up being a backdoor for the next coronavirus? Not intentional but just so close it ends up making things worse? Can they, are they, how are they testing for something like this?
I'm up to date with all my shots, I love vaccines, but this one got me suspicious and I'd say it's 50/50 on my concerns on the vaccine and my fear of covid-19. I worry about my elderly folks and what would be the right decision for them when it comes to this vaccine.
My worry is that the FDA in an attempt to appear to "play ball" will approve something that isn't safe. The FDA under normal circumstances is extraordinarily conservative, and I fear that as they are being pressured to be more "reasonable" they will go too far in the other direction and just rubber stamp this whether it's safe or not.
I put this virus in the same category as the chickenpox: just let me get it when I'm young and healthy so I can get it over with and not die of it if I live to be 90.
It's very, VERY rushed, on a time scale like you'd see in fucking movies. Yeah, I'll wait and see how the human guinea pigs in the turdwhirled countries do, first. Because, hey, we've had Thalidomide, and promises of an AIDS vaccine for 40 years.
Converting to Islam seems to be the way to get out of it. Many of these government officials are actually Muslim, so they won't be affected.
If people want to sterilize themselves and don't create something in them that does the same to me, I don't really care. If this vaccine works and the effects stay in the person's body, then I really don't need it.
I don’t really worry about the U.S government doing it, I don’t think we are that far gone yet. I am a bit concerned that colleges and corporations will require you get one or face expulsion/termination. I support vaccinations, but I also recognize that completing one in the currently scheduled time frame is practically impossible, especially for a relatively new virus such as this one.
From the article: "It's hard to see how discrimination would occur if vaccinations were free and accessible to all."
...Really? They doubt the power of the baizuo that much? Let me remind these smoothbrains, of a VERY famous quote: "Everything is racist, everything is sexist, and it is your job to point it all out." They WILL find a way.
=-=-=-= On your point... =-=-=-=
I worry about forced vaccinations, because as you can guess from my name, I come from the merry ol' land of Canada. Ask the native populations here what they think of mandatory chemical injections from the government. Forget "living memory", there's people barely middle-aged who were raped, and then sterilized by "helpful government medicine" around here TODAY. We're a country of horrific crimes against certain populations, crimes made possible in part by the defense of "mandatory health needles for the good of society".
I wouldn't put it past Trudeau to continue the legacy of his father, his predecessors, and his successors. and fund more rape, sterilization, and murder of native Canadian peoples. There's significant precedent for this behavior, and thus I do have great concerns over mandatory injections. Maybe the vaccine isn't hastily-made and shoddy. Maybe the vaccine has no side effects, and does only what it is supposed to... But who is to say that is the vaccine you're getting, if you're living on a reserve? Maybe we should traipse over to the local Residential School Memorial Museum, they could distribute the shots there in a reenactment of the last time the gov't forced needles into their once-proud people.
When something is voluntary, when you need to go out of your way to get it, the chances of it being a safe product are much higher. If it was just highly advised, and offered through Shoppers Drug Mart, it would get a much more positive reaction from me and I imagine many others, than if men in suits and bullet-proof vests showed up with needles and rubber bullets on reservations and said "we're from the government, and we're here to help."
Oh they won't "force" anyone to take it. They'll just make all sorts of things require it to the point where you can't participate in society without it. The solution to the situation will require more than simple moral disapproval.
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Yes for sure but if you ever say something about it you're called an anti vaxxer
Robert Barnes has talked about how the vaccine industry has unconstitutional legal protections and even his and Viva's community labels him as being an 'anti-vaxxer'
Was a nice story until that aftermath section. I think it'd be even worse in modern america, since the public has been intentionally polarized on the issue of vaccination.
I definitely don't want to get this rushed vaccine.
"Do not allow objections for personal preference, which violate the social contract."
Such a weaselly way of saying "for the greater good". I think forcing people to take an essentially untested and potentially dangerous vaccine is a far greater violation of the social contract.
I am not at risk, like nearly everyone under 60. I am not getting vaccinated for this cold.
Especially not with a poorly-tested coronavirus vaccine, which have the bad habit of either not working, or causing a catastrophic backfire when the test animals were re-exposed to the target coronavirus months after initial results looked good.
People for which this SARS-2 is more dangerous can decide for themselves if they consider the avaliable vaccine(s), when they come out, are worth taking.
And I have little doubt people will be brazenly misled about the cost-benefit of said vaccine. ( If the healthcare officials tell people, hypothetically, that the vaccine offers a 28% protection and a 50% reduction in complications, less people will bother getting it, so they will lie to people to increase fear of the virus and mislead about the vaccine protection untill they get the desired compliance to vaccination.)
I was not at risk for the Swine Flu mass hysteria with a fatality rate lower than seasonal flu. Yet my government flat out sais they would fear-monger people untill they got to use their stock of vaccines they were fooled into purshasing, wasting billions in public funds. They will lie again to get the desired compliance from the population.
They don't understand lying like that will untimately destroy society by making our institutions nothing but manipulative lie machines.
Yep. Especially since I'm at college. They wouldn't even need to make it a law. Some fuckwit high up in the college administration could simply require it. And lets be honest, modern college students aren't the type to protest these sorts of things. I'm fine with other vaccines, but I won't be a lab rat for some rushed solution.
I don't think civilians need to worry about this, it's a blatant government overreach and even the most deranged judge will side against the government on this if the right victim makes a complaint (be they black, a woman, a jew, a muslim or whatever).
Now, soldiers on the other hand might have reason to worry.
Nope. There's anecdotal evidence that immunity to Covid 19 is a short-term affair, eg. a doctor who had it 4 months ago caught it again last month. There's possible reasons why this might be an outlier, but if not then we basically have a killer bug wandering around the earth, mutating regularly and causing a brand new pandemic each time it does.
Based on this we're going to need some extra help. Vaccinations won't actually work long-term if it's that bad, but they will help buy us all time for a permanent solution to be found.
From article: "Sweden hoped herd immunity would curb COVID-19. Don't do what we did. It's not working."
They say that as there death count is in the single digits/ day and never had to suffer the consequences of lock down or forcing masks. It's all very suspect and we should not trust them.
I look at Sweden's numbers, and I see numbers comparable to places that have done phased lockdowns and shutdowns and mandatory muzzling. Or in other words, the exact same problems that existed in Sweden, existed everywhere else. Empirically speaking, Sweden "won": Same death rate as other places OF CORONA-CHAN SPECIFICALLY, while having far less death rate from things like economic downturn, which holds a very high death rate of its own.
This is because the spread was likely at its worst before any lockdowns were in place at all. They already failed to "flatten the curve" and most hospitals were able to handle it.
It's becoming far more clear that the crisis, which was still an actual crisis, has been blown out of proportion for political reasons. You only need to look at the media's stances of if somebody should wear a mask and Hydroxycholoquine.
In the UK at least the lockdowns were never about saving lives, it was to stem the flow of sick people into the hospitals and healthcare system that is drastically understaffed, underfunded, under equipped and administrated extremely poorly.
The worst part is if you ever bring it up then it's either the boomers fault (somehow despite them paying into the system) rather than say the people running it and the government for letting people access it for free who have no entitlement to do so.
Conservative government underfunded the NHS political football for a decade now in order to support bringing in privatisation. Yeah it's badly run but again, who's the people putting them in charge?
Both major parties screwed the NHS for funding - the mass introduction of PFI in hospitals came under Labour's watch, if you recall, and some trusts are still suffering under those PFI schemes.
Cause they're going to compare Sweden to Norway/Finland/Denmark because they're more culturally similar. However, they will also ignore Norways health ministry saying Norway could have achieve similar results to what it got without implementing a lockdown.
The effect of the virus on Sweden depends purely on who you ask about it. It's either ravaging the whole country and causing untold death and decay, or it's a moderate concern that's more or less been mitigated by taking sensible precautiong without trying to destroy the entire economic foundation of the country.
Basically it's an opposing expert that said it. It seems to be working for Sweden considering their very lax method of counting covid deaths (anyone who's dead within a month after their last positive test is counted as a covid death).
Its all nonsense for more government control.
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means, but I will never support the government being able to force people to take something into their body against their will.
My immediate concern is corporate America adopting this stance. Get the vaccine or get fired.
That's my line in the sand. If they demand my papers, I'll just forge them.
I will not undertake a medical procedure as a condition of employment. This includes temperature checks to get in the door. This is one of my red lines.
Sounds like a 1A issue
That appears to be precisely the point this article is addressing: "don't allow religious or personal objections, and punish those who won't be vaccinated."
It's not even about healthcare, it seems, it's about estabilshing "We are America, you merely live here, and you will do what you are told"
Suck the feminine dick, bigot!
It's not just being a Guinea Pig for me, it's also the whole "everyone is mandated by government to support the Healthcare Industrial Complex" angle.
I'd like to start a business that 330 million people are required to purchase my product no matter what level of quality or customer care I provide. Where do I sign up for that?
Try asking whoever runs the BBC. Its fucking insane that a shithole TV channel get to charge citizens whatever they want and its a crime not to pay. Imagine if Cat Fancy started putting magazines in your letterbox and charged you $100 a year and had the power to call the pigs if you refused to pay. Or if no matter what phone company you were with you still had to pay an additional fee to some other random company. UK seriously needs a nuke and restart.
OT: Yeah, I ain't taking it. They would have to get a bunch of pigs to physically hold me down while they jabbed me and I would be kicking and biting the entire time. Any politician who ever demanded this should be hauled off to the gallows.
I would honestly rather get China Virus than let some scumfuck hacks like Bill Gates force his poison into me. I've used Windows ME, I know how incompetent that prick is.
Are you saying you don't trust an organization run by Bill Gates to protect you from a virus?
With Trump in office and living in a red state? No.
But I could see there being some sort of consequence for refusal under Biden. Which isn't something I would have thought 5 or 6 years ago. But seeing some of the shit they've put into place to cripple the masses with fear during the last 6 months it's hard to say.
I'd like to think that neither would force people, though... but I can't.
I'm worried that it will come down to "get vaxxed or lose your job". Not all of us are blessed with being self employed or working for based employers. Some of us the best job available is in a big box business.
I'd probably end up taking it down the line, but I wanna see how it plays out first. But if it's mandatory or they place restrictions on people who don't get it then I'm most likely going to try my best to not take it for as long as I am able.
I have reservations on the whole mRNA vaccine part of it. It's something that's apparently never been approved for human use. They're rushing the heck out of it. How thorough is the testing? How often does covid-19 mutate? Will antibody-dependent enhancement be an issue down the line when covid-20 comes out next year for $60? As in: what if the vaccine ends up being a backdoor for the next coronavirus? Not intentional but just so close it ends up making things worse? Can they, are they, how are they testing for something like this?
I'm up to date with all my shots, I love vaccines, but this one got me suspicious and I'd say it's 50/50 on my concerns on the vaccine and my fear of covid-19. I worry about my elderly folks and what would be the right decision for them when it comes to this vaccine.
My worry is that the FDA in an attempt to appear to "play ball" will approve something that isn't safe. The FDA under normal circumstances is extraordinarily conservative, and I fear that as they are being pressured to be more "reasonable" they will go too far in the other direction and just rubber stamp this whether it's safe or not.
I put this virus in the same category as the chickenpox: just let me get it when I'm young and healthy so I can get it over with and not die of it if I live to be 90.
It's very, VERY rushed, on a time scale like you'd see in fucking movies. Yeah, I'll wait and see how the human guinea pigs in the turdwhirled countries do, first. Because, hey, we've had Thalidomide, and promises of an AIDS vaccine for 40 years.
From the same people too. Fauci and Birx were involved in an aids vaccine development iirc
Converting to Islam seems to be the way to get out of it. Many of these government officials are actually Muslim, so they won't be affected.
If people want to sterilize themselves and don't create something in them that does the same to me, I don't really care. If this vaccine works and the effects stay in the person's body, then I really don't need it.
I don’t really worry about the U.S government doing it, I don’t think we are that far gone yet. I am a bit concerned that colleges and corporations will require you get one or face expulsion/termination. I support vaccinations, but I also recognize that completing one in the currently scheduled time frame is practically impossible, especially for a relatively new virus such as this one.
From the article: "It's hard to see how discrimination would occur if vaccinations were free and accessible to all."
...Really? They doubt the power of the baizuo that much? Let me remind these smoothbrains, of a VERY famous quote: "Everything is racist, everything is sexist, and it is your job to point it all out." They WILL find a way.
=-=-=-= On your point... =-=-=-=
I worry about forced vaccinations, because as you can guess from my name, I come from the merry ol' land of Canada. Ask the native populations here what they think of mandatory chemical injections from the government. Forget "living memory", there's people barely middle-aged who were raped, and then sterilized by "helpful government medicine" around here TODAY. We're a country of horrific crimes against certain populations, crimes made possible in part by the defense of "mandatory health needles for the good of society".
I wouldn't put it past Trudeau to continue the legacy of his father, his predecessors, and his successors. and fund more rape, sterilization, and murder of native Canadian peoples. There's significant precedent for this behavior, and thus I do have great concerns over mandatory injections. Maybe the vaccine isn't hastily-made and shoddy. Maybe the vaccine has no side effects, and does only what it is supposed to... But who is to say that is the vaccine you're getting, if you're living on a reserve? Maybe we should traipse over to the local Residential School Memorial Museum, they could distribute the shots there in a reenactment of the last time the gov't forced needles into their once-proud people.
When something is voluntary, when you need to go out of your way to get it, the chances of it being a safe product are much higher. If it was just highly advised, and offered through Shoppers Drug Mart, it would get a much more positive reaction from me and I imagine many others, than if men in suits and bullet-proof vests showed up with needles and rubber bullets on reservations and said "we're from the government, and we're here to help."
Oh they won't "force" anyone to take it. They'll just make all sorts of things require it to the point where you can't participate in society without it. The solution to the situation will require more than simple moral disapproval.
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
-Revelations 13:16-17
Yes for sure but if you ever say something about it you're called an anti vaxxer
Robert Barnes has talked about how the vaccine industry has unconstitutional legal protections and even his and Viva's community labels him as being an 'anti-vaxxer'
Been there done that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_Revolt
Was a nice story until that aftermath section. I think it'd be even worse in modern america, since the public has been intentionally polarized on the issue of vaccination.
They can kiss the whitest part of my ass.
I definitely don't want to get this rushed vaccine.
"Do not allow objections for personal preference, which violate the social contract."
Such a weaselly way of saying "for the greater good". I think forcing people to take an essentially untested and potentially dangerous vaccine is a far greater violation of the social contract.
More lighthearted, in a way, every time their argument comes up, this song comes to my mind. It happens so damn often.
I am not at risk, like nearly everyone under 60. I am not getting vaccinated for this cold.
Especially not with a poorly-tested coronavirus vaccine, which have the bad habit of either not working, or causing a catastrophic backfire when the test animals were re-exposed to the target coronavirus months after initial results looked good.
People for which this SARS-2 is more dangerous can decide for themselves if they consider the avaliable vaccine(s), when they come out, are worth taking.
And I have little doubt people will be brazenly misled about the cost-benefit of said vaccine. ( If the healthcare officials tell people, hypothetically, that the vaccine offers a 28% protection and a 50% reduction in complications, less people will bother getting it, so they will lie to people to increase fear of the virus and mislead about the vaccine protection untill they get the desired compliance to vaccination.)
I was not at risk for the Swine Flu mass hysteria with a fatality rate lower than seasonal flu. Yet my government flat out sais they would fear-monger people untill they got to use their stock of vaccines they were fooled into purshasing, wasting billions in public funds. They will lie again to get the desired compliance from the population.
They don't understand lying like that will untimately destroy society by making our institutions nothing but manipulative lie machines.
Yep. Especially since I'm at college. They wouldn't even need to make it a law. Some fuckwit high up in the college administration could simply require it. And lets be honest, modern college students aren't the type to protest these sorts of things. I'm fine with other vaccines, but I won't be a lab rat for some rushed solution.
I don't think civilians need to worry about this, it's a blatant government overreach and even the most deranged judge will side against the government on this if the right victim makes a complaint (be they black, a woman, a jew, a muslim or whatever).
Now, soldiers on the other hand might have reason to worry.
Nope. There's anecdotal evidence that immunity to Covid 19 is a short-term affair, eg. a doctor who had it 4 months ago caught it again last month. There's possible reasons why this might be an outlier, but if not then we basically have a killer bug wandering around the earth, mutating regularly and causing a brand new pandemic each time it does.
Based on this we're going to need some extra help. Vaccinations won't actually work long-term if it's that bad, but they will help buy us all time for a permanent solution to be found.