Peterson knocked off his fence perch by smug child
(notthebee.com)
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Peterson has been broken in the mind for quite a few years now, but he doesn't seem to have caught on to it. So him thinking the same old duck and dodge tricks will work, especially the one people who live and breathe these debate club tricks like atheists, shows how stupid he truly has become.
Especially with something as integral as the Mary question, which is generally one of the bigger differences between the major denominations that people can name even without going to church.
It ain't even Marian doctrine that tripped Peterson up. He's built up a position of speaking for "Conservatives" and "Christians" despite being neither. This wasn't a trick. Kid knew Peterson isn't a true believer, and all Peterson had to do was "I'm not but this is how I would approach apologetics if I were." But he can't say the first bit without compromising his brand.
True, but he also could have just answered the question and tossed the kid on the defensive. These types come to this type of conversation with only a handful of gotchas and little ability to articulate outside of prepared responses without that upperhand.
Something a lot of guys lost in their "puppetmaster" persona forget is that they can just be direct and simple sometimes and completely deflate the sails of those against them.
Maybe, but I'm not sure. I still like Peterson, but intentional or not, the kid stuck a barb right in where it could do the most damage:
Is not the position of an of any Christian much less an apologist. I hate to say it but this BS is only usually found in defenders of Islam or Judaism. This was not an attack that would have work on anybody but J Peterson. And it did work. And frankly, the kid was right.
I don't disagree with you on any of this.
Only that JP could have simply answered that only direct question he was asked, one that is very surface level about the Church that you don't even need to identify as one to know.
Him failing that, to the point that he was on the backfoot that all the following attacks were even able to be unleashed, is a far worse showing for his mental state than simple duplicity.
He has a different master now, and it's not himself.
Is it you?
Thus always to fence-sitters.
Hmmm. I'm not sure. I think this was deliberately bad faith provocation from the start. The kid is disrespectful and pushy and doesn't end up making anything but some pedantic point.
It's hard for me to agree with the idea that he "destroyed" Peterson here as I think the real meat was to come. If it makes any difference, I am an atheist and I would not say I'm generally a fan of JP.
The video is called "Christians vs atheists" if you're the "christian" and you don't confess Christ you lose. End of story.
There is quite litteraly no possible stronger example of "you have one job"
No, the video is called "Jordan Peterson vs 20 Atheists | Surrounded".
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwk5MPE_6zE&pp=ygUWY2hyaXN0aWFucyB2cyBhdGhlaXN0c9IHCQmNCQGHKiGM7w%3D%3D
They edited the title of the video, it was originally "1 Christian vs 20 Atheists".
Its such a retarded gotcha anyway. WHY would that be the title lol, if Jordan peterson is an atheist why would he debate 20 athiests.
He has to be the outgroup if he's going to be surrounded. "Jackie chan vs 20 asians" lol
If you intentionally hide your argument in a debate, it means you're being manipulative and disingenuous, preventing your opponent from being able to address specific points of disagreement.
The kid was absolutely a Reddit tier atheist and uncivil, which prevents good debate, but about his point of contention here, he's absolutely correct. Peterson is being even more contemptible than the Reddit atheist in debate ethics. It is impossible to have a debate when one side is concealing their true motives, arguments, and position. On any topic in a debate, everyone should be rightfully pissed at Peterson for pulling that manipulation.
Hugs, my man. Why would JP face off against "20 Atheists" if not to challenge atheism? Now there are numerous challenges to atheism one could make without invoking Christian thought. But not if your J Peterson. Peterson buggered off because the snot nosed kid challenged Peterson's media personality, ie a "cultural Christian" on the side of "conservatives." Peterson can't say "I don't believe in Christianity but lets talk about Aristotle's metaphysics and the resultant Prime Mover." The checks would stop rolling in.
It was originally presented as “1 Christian vs 20 atheists.” They changed the title after this moment went viral.
Originally it was titled christian but they edited the video.
How many times has PETERson denied Christ, has it been maybe THREE times. You better stop thinking in the box and start thinking in the crucifix or you’ll be doomed to eternal torment.
Its one of those funny things were the question answers itself. To question "why do I have to say I'm a Christian or not?" Is to deny being Christian, and if you don't know the doctrine well enough you wont even see why. its while the petersons of the world cant fuck woth Christianity, it requires a humility they lack, and requires you to abandon consecutive reasoning in favor of obedience.
Peterson doesnt remind me of Peter. He reminds me of Saul, he sees the value in God, but thinks with his little adjustments and input things could be even better.
No, he absolutely was destroyed. Remove all the specific labels regarding Christian/Atheist and he still was destroyed.
He is constantly shifting around, refusing to answer anything, and has completely lost frame. The kid has him squirming and trying to act tough and in control when he can't even answer a simple question and has to "watch your tone with me!!" to pull the only card he has (age/experience).
It doesn't matter if its bad faith, when you are in a debate setting and have made your fame dominating others in bad faith battles (like the famous lobster one) you need to put on a better show.
Remove all the specific labels about Christians or atheists and nothing was said. JP was pushing back on small assumptions and waiting for the atheist to make his point, which I'm guessing had to do with The Mary Question. Instead of actually making that point, he quibbled about the specific labels you mentioned. And that's all that happened.
Not quite. He got Peterson to as good as admit that Peterson doesn't hold the Christian position. Not a death knell in the Atheism-Theism debate, but makes make Peterson seem odd when the following dialogue was :
Even ignoring whether or not Peterson should be playing the role he is, that quibbling is insane. “Why are you asking me that?” I don’t know, because you showed up to a debate to play the opposing side? How else did you expect this to go? The atheists monologue without ever talking to you directly and you get to interject when you spot rhetorical weakness, but pretend to be above it all like you’re the commentator is some sort of political version of MST3K?
I really hate to defend this smug atheist, but those labels were important in the context of the debate. If JP refuses to identify as a Catholic, or even a Christian, then he has no anchored principle to even make a point against in a Christian vs Atheist debate. How can you even begin the conversation if every presupposed position is suddenly "nu uh, I ain't that either!"
So without the labels, JP is just waffling badly. With them, he fails as a Christian by denying Christ and doing so for some beneficial purpose. I guess to not be attached to the baggage of the label.
"Reddit Tier Atheist berates Jordan Peterson for no real reason"
Is the correct analysis here. Not sure why that's not obvious to everyone, when it's obvious to an anti-theist.
Seems like a bunch of Catholics are upset that Peterson didn't scream at the idiot and hit him with the Jesus-Jesus book. Kinda shows that a lot of the institutionalists do not fucking get that you're not going to harass and belittle your way into getting converts.
Anyways, Carl seems to have a smarter take on this.
As said above, if you show up to the Christians vs atheists debate, and you refuse to call yourself a Christian, you lose the debate unless you're already on the atheist side.
This seems like a problem with the producers of the show (one of many).
"Nobody stopped me" isn't a valid couter to "you don't belong here"
lol you can take a debate position you don't believe in. There's even a name for it.
He didn't take that position
Little twirp kid asked about Peterson's personal views, Peterson says my personal views aren't relevant to the debate.
Peterson made his points just fine, kid is just a moron. (@48:53)
Kid is douche. But Peterson didn't take the position of being a Christian even for the debate.
That's because the proposition was "everybody worships something, including atheists, even though they might not know it" not "I'm a Christian prove me wrong".
You're confusing it with a Crowder sketch maybe.
Kid is like 'but I said you said Christians worship Mary above everything else and now you're saying she's not worshipped as much as the trinity haha gotcha!'. This kid was raving like a lunatic and in a better day Peterson would have just reached over and smacked him upside the head.
"Do you believe any of this?" "Well, no" "So what's the point?" I'm on the kid's side at least as far is this exchange is concerned .
I'm not sure how you managed to read to situation so poorly. The atheist was right. That's the point. Not about God or religion (they didn't get that far) but about Peterson. Even the evangelicals at NotTheBee were shaking their heads.
Again, this is an inversion.
Edit: I like Carl Benjamin, but his take is entirely focuses on "snotty kid had daddy issues." Calling out a man who shows up to practice Christian apologetics as "really quite nothing" when he won't commit to what he is defending was a killing blow. The kid was spot on; I just don't know if he stumbled into it by accident or he legit knew what's up.
Yeah give the smug kid his flowers lol. "You're really quite nothing" was a movie quality line he dashed off instantly
The conversation in this thread is odd. Peterson crashes out, and the local Atheists come to defend JP on his shifty defense of the existence of God? I know Giz is Giz, but still...
People like that defend the current status quo, and all who uphold it, even the false choice political parties, politicians, and media pundits who claim to be on our side. The political right is filled with people who claim to be our ally, while they're stabbing us in the back and serving the same masters as the left. It's extremely obvious.
Of course Giz would defend people who pretend to be right, pretend to be Christian, who gatekeep us from moving further right, and out of the control of the false right.
I don't know man. I'm usually a Peterson defender in these parts, it really feels like JP buggered up so bad that they're saying "look away!" Lends credence to the claims JP is so called controlled opposition.
I don't think that's the case, but every victory against Marxism/Progressivism/etc has come at the hands of a 90's moderate. Donald Trump changed the course of human history by having the political positions of Bill Clinton. Peterson is pretty much the same thing, but he wants a cookie for doing it. I do like listening to a lot of Peterson's content, but I've come to realize that he's not as tough about his banishment from the Academy as he pretends. He wants back in.
Jordan Peterson was fine when he was giving lecture courses in college and pushing back against the tranny pronoun crap. Something broke in him, somewhere around the time of his drug addiction. Ever since, he's never been the same, and has allied (grouped up) with false right people, and gatekeeps us from moving further right like all the other false right people.
I know a lot of people on the right still believe in Trump, but I still argue he's a false savior for the dissident right, meant to placate us for another 4 (8) years while nothing effectual changes. The severe lack of deportations, not locking up Hillary, supporting the Covid lies, pushing out the vaccines, the support for Israel and jews, the race blindness, thanking everyone but White people in his acceptance speech, the complete lack of arrests of the traitors in government, adhering to judiciary rulings which are bull, not finishing the border wall, wanting to bring in even more H1B workers, supporting Israel's genocide in Gaza, etc. There are a few crumbs that are thrown our way, to stop the complete bleed out of MAGA, but they're only bread crumbs. Nothing effectual will ever be done by false choice political parties, politicians, or false saviors to actually fix our systemic problems.
Peterson destroyed Peterson. All he had to do was say no
I've seen the recent Jubilee debate bro clip before.
Does anyone have a clip from Peterson's back catalog where he specifically addresses his personal self-identification with Christianity?
I remember his long ago advocacy for Bible stories being parables of ancient wisdom passed down through generations even if apocryphal.
Where is the child mentioned in the title? I see 2 adults.