"One of the great hatchet jobs of modern American letters, Sontag’s 16-page Letter from Sweden, published in the July 1969 issue of Ramparts magazine, spared few sections of Swedish society. Swedes were obsessively obedient of petty rules: “Old ladies glare at you when you cross an empty street against the light”. But when things go wrong “hardly anyone gets fired”: Sontag saw Swedes as so pathologically frightened of conflict that they turn a blind eye to incompetence and failure. Southern European immigrants told Sontag they found Swedes “unbearably cold, stiff and priggish”, and Sontag agreed.
Superficially, Sontag considered Sweden to be much like the US or West Germany – “six-lane highways, suburban shopping centres… refined and partly detoxified by the condition of advanced ‘welfare state enlightenment’”. But on closer examination she found Sweden full of meanness and pedantry. Swedes split restaurant and taxi bills to the last cent, were notoriously shifty about planning social engagements, and – worst of all – continually smoked Sontag’s cigarettes without returning the favour."
If anything, these habitws seem to have gotten worse, not better, since this country's open embrace of high-level low-skill immigration, feminism and "socialism". It's been 55 years, but I still see those pathologies every day, here, lol...
It's painfully accurate. No wonder people here get so prickly about that letter she wrote, lol.
This is, I think, a kind of modern stoicism. Picture stuff like Jane Austen works or Downton Abbey, but without servants, fancy outfits, or grand gestures. You conduct yourself professionally in public, but fret about things or gossip with friends in private. Showing emotion is for the weak.
If things do boil over with someone at some point, you may act like nothing happened the next time you meet. Formal apologies are optional.
Source: life in MN, Swedish family.
Yeah, I guess. But I would personally argue that bottling up almost all emotions like they do here is not particularly healthy…
Hence the extremely high suicide rates. And the related fact that so many of them live alone, and die alone (there’s a documentary on this, the Swedish Theory of Love, and it is revealing)… And the alcoholism, and the domestic violence. It’s just not healthy, whatever moral superiority complex people here may claim…
It also results in extreme conformity and compliance, to the point where I could easily see how an authoritarian leader, of whatever political persuasion, could win here, and convince the population to do bad things, “for the greater good”…
They’re not very rebellious (anymore). They’re not particularly brave (men are so cowardly that they just… Don't even talk to women, here. So thus I stand out, and that’s despite my usually being piss-poor at that). The main objective seems to be “Don’t stand out. Don’t do anything flashy. I don’t matter and neither do you. And you should never think you’re special.”
I just… Don’t find all that particularly healthy. And neither has any foreigner I have met (or dated) while here.
I’m not sure how much of that translates to your family in Minnesota, though, and I certainly don’t mean any offence.
I’ve dated a number of Swedish girls. I obviously chose to move here. But I just… I see a lot of problems with the culture, post-1970s, here. And I think it’s important to point them out (just as I do with Aus), because no one here does that. And someone damn well needs to…
Oh I definitely agree it's unhealthy. I'm not trying to defend it, rather just to describe my impression of the culture. You'll see the same kind of tendencies here and how it is being exploited for regressive motives. We even have mirroring imports of Somalis.
It also results in extreme conformity and compliance, to the point where I could easily see how an authoritarian leader, of whatever political persuasion, could win here, and convince the population to do bad things, “for the greater good”
Why are you talking about this like it hasn’t already happened? Are the feminists not authoritarian enough for you? Did their mass immigration, very much sold to us as “for the greater good”, not prove sufficiently “bad”?
I think part of that can be blamed on the schooling system and the zero tolerance policies where self-defense is punished more often than the attackers. Standing up for what is right is punished by society while evil rarely faces consequences, so you might as well keep your head down.
But on closer examination she found Sweden full of meanness and pedantry. Swedes split restaurant and taxi bills to the last cent, were notoriously shifty about planning social engagements, and – worst of all – continually smoked Sontag’s cigarettes without returning the favour."
And there it is:
Early life and education
Sontag was born Susan Rosenblatt in New York City, the daughter of Mildred (née Jacobson) and Jack Rosenblatt, both Jews of Lithuanian[4] and Polish descent.
You can pretty much ignore anything either Orwell or Sontag wrote. Orwell fought for the communists, and Sontag is a Jew. Their opinions are invalid.
Sontag was also a childless lesbian (sort of. She swung both ways). I disagree with her (and Orwell) on many things. That absolutely does not mean discounting them on things when they are generally right.
Both her and Orwell's observations were extremely on point. Just because they don't align with your personal prejudices against certain groups doesn't invalidate their opinions here.
Orwell certainly grew disillusioned with the socialist movement. 1984, which was written while he was afflicted with (eventually terminal) illness certainly shows that.
1984 is very much a critique of authoritarian government and the human condition. It might as well be aimed directly at the Socialist governments of Europe.
I’m here right now. I’ve been here for almost exactly six months.
It’s… Ok. That is the best I can say about it.
The national bird (possible even animal) is a blackbird. The weather is, for six months of the year, solidly beige, if not outright grey. I would describe their “national character” as also beige.
It’s just… Meh. Like a giant suburb.
Yes, the average woman here is more attractive than in Anglo countries. And yes, it’s fairly safe (depending where you are), and pay is fairly good. But it’s expensive, accommodation is shit, and culturally it’s just… A bit off.
As I have discussed extensively with other foreigners here (mostly English-speakers, but also French et al), it’s just… Very “cold” culturally, and very… Reserved. Exactly as Sontag described it. And they judge you fairly openly. And they fucking love staring…
You know what I would say to really piss Swedes off..? I preferred Denmark. And it’s true. I did. I also preferred Finland, for that matter…
But I’m glad your friends had a great time. I don’t… Hate it here, but if, for some reason, I decided to come back again, long-term, I don’t think I would live in Stockholm.
Quite literally everywhere else I have been in Sweden, with the exception of the village I lived in for three months, has been better than the capital…
Stockholm just… Doesn’t work, for me. I’m not sure why, but it doesn’t.
Yeah, it's fine. But that's all it is. Fine. Dull. Beige. "Adequate". Perfect if you don't care about never fitting in (I tried. Really damn hard), or having decent bars, or good (beyond average) cuisine...
But I can honestly say that it's no mystery to me why most expats (from other Western countries) hate it here...
Did your friends go up North? Because I believe that's where most of the more exciting, "authentic" experiences are to be found.
Stockholm is just meh. Overpriced, over-competitive meh.
Guy, you know that the Sweden that you are defending is dying, right? That the demographics of the Swedish population have an end date for Swedish culture?
Whatever you like or don't like about Sweden will end in your lifetime. The people or leaders (it doesn't really matter which) invited in a literal army of invaders to out-breed and out-vote the Swedish people. Their days are very definitely numbered unless they literally pick up arms to fight off the "immigrants", which they won't. They would literally rather die. To my mind that is a glaring flaw in the national character.
So it may look adequate. But it isn't. It is dying day by day. Go and visit it before it is gone so you can tell your grandkids what it was like.
Some of this is just European politeness. You keep people at bay at your castle walls, and then show your true self beyond those walls. The biggest question I get from a newly moved in German to America is why everyone is smiling all the time. I have to explain it's American politeness, and is just as strong as European walls.
On the other hand, Sweden is full of people who are obsessed with being better than everyone else. It's why they went socialist, because they were told it's better. It's why they're assholes, because they think they're better. I have good friends who are swedish, and they admit this is a big problem.
My favourite bit, I think:
"One of the great hatchet jobs of modern American letters, Sontag’s 16-page Letter from Sweden, published in the July 1969 issue of Ramparts magazine, spared few sections of Swedish society. Swedes were obsessively obedient of petty rules: “Old ladies glare at you when you cross an empty street against the light”. But when things go wrong “hardly anyone gets fired”: Sontag saw Swedes as so pathologically frightened of conflict that they turn a blind eye to incompetence and failure. Southern European immigrants told Sontag they found Swedes “unbearably cold, stiff and priggish”, and Sontag agreed.
Superficially, Sontag considered Sweden to be much like the US or West Germany – “six-lane highways, suburban shopping centres… refined and partly detoxified by the condition of advanced ‘welfare state enlightenment’”. But on closer examination she found Sweden full of meanness and pedantry. Swedes split restaurant and taxi bills to the last cent, were notoriously shifty about planning social engagements, and – worst of all – continually smoked Sontag’s cigarettes without returning the favour."
If anything, these habitws seem to have gotten worse, not better, since this country's open embrace of high-level low-skill immigration, feminism and "socialism". It's been 55 years, but I still see those pathologies every day, here, lol...
It's painfully accurate. No wonder people here get so prickly about that letter she wrote, lol.
This is, I think, a kind of modern stoicism. Picture stuff like Jane Austen works or Downton Abbey, but without servants, fancy outfits, or grand gestures. You conduct yourself professionally in public, but fret about things or gossip with friends in private. Showing emotion is for the weak.
If things do boil over with someone at some point, you may act like nothing happened the next time you meet. Formal apologies are optional.
Source: life in MN, Swedish family.
Yeah, I guess. But I would personally argue that bottling up almost all emotions like they do here is not particularly healthy…
Hence the extremely high suicide rates. And the related fact that so many of them live alone, and die alone (there’s a documentary on this, the Swedish Theory of Love, and it is revealing)… And the alcoholism, and the domestic violence. It’s just not healthy, whatever moral superiority complex people here may claim…
It also results in extreme conformity and compliance, to the point where I could easily see how an authoritarian leader, of whatever political persuasion, could win here, and convince the population to do bad things, “for the greater good”…
They’re not very rebellious (anymore). They’re not particularly brave (men are so cowardly that they just… Don't even talk to women, here. So thus I stand out, and that’s despite my usually being piss-poor at that). The main objective seems to be “Don’t stand out. Don’t do anything flashy. I don’t matter and neither do you. And you should never think you’re special.”
I just… Don’t find all that particularly healthy. And neither has any foreigner I have met (or dated) while here.
I’m not sure how much of that translates to your family in Minnesota, though, and I certainly don’t mean any offence.
I’ve dated a number of Swedish girls. I obviously chose to move here. But I just… I see a lot of problems with the culture, post-1970s, here. And I think it’s important to point them out (just as I do with Aus), because no one here does that. And someone damn well needs to…
Oh I definitely agree it's unhealthy. I'm not trying to defend it, rather just to describe my impression of the culture. You'll see the same kind of tendencies here and how it is being exploited for regressive motives. We even have mirroring imports of Somalis.
Why are you talking about this like it hasn’t already happened? Are the feminists not authoritarian enough for you? Did their mass immigration, very much sold to us as “for the greater good”, not prove sufficiently “bad”?
I see the same behavior in a lot of America. Lots of passive aggressive behavior amongst western whites.
I think part of that can be blamed on the schooling system and the zero tolerance policies where self-defense is punished more often than the attackers. Standing up for what is right is punished by society while evil rarely faces consequences, so you might as well keep your head down.
This line set off alarm bells:
And there it is:
You can pretty much ignore anything either Orwell or Sontag wrote. Orwell fought for the communists, and Sontag is a Jew. Their opinions are invalid.
That's how the Japanese are. I don't see anything wrong with it.
Thing is, that excerpt was just jewish projection. Very much in line with their behavior.
Hard disagree.
Sontag was also a childless lesbian (sort of. She swung both ways). I disagree with her (and Orwell) on many things. That absolutely does not mean discounting them on things when they are generally right.
Both her and Orwell's observations were extremely on point. Just because they don't align with your personal prejudices against certain groups doesn't invalidate their opinions here.
Orwell certainly grew disillusioned with the socialist movement. 1984, which was written while he was afflicted with (eventually terminal) illness certainly shows that.
1984 is very much a critique of authoritarian government and the human condition. It might as well be aimed directly at the Socialist governments of Europe.
I've had some friends visit, they've had a great time. Have you been?
I’m here right now. I’ve been here for almost exactly six months.
It’s… Ok. That is the best I can say about it.
The national bird (possible even animal) is a blackbird. The weather is, for six months of the year, solidly beige, if not outright grey. I would describe their “national character” as also beige.
It’s just… Meh. Like a giant suburb.
Yes, the average woman here is more attractive than in Anglo countries. And yes, it’s fairly safe (depending where you are), and pay is fairly good. But it’s expensive, accommodation is shit, and culturally it’s just… A bit off.
As I have discussed extensively with other foreigners here (mostly English-speakers, but also French et al), it’s just… Very “cold” culturally, and very… Reserved. Exactly as Sontag described it. And they judge you fairly openly. And they fucking love staring…
You know what I would say to really piss Swedes off..? I preferred Denmark. And it’s true. I did. I also preferred Finland, for that matter…
But I’m glad your friends had a great time. I don’t… Hate it here, but if, for some reason, I decided to come back again, long-term, I don’t think I would live in Stockholm.
Quite literally everywhere else I have been in Sweden, with the exception of the village I lived in for three months, has been better than the capital…
Stockholm just… Doesn’t work, for me. I’m not sure why, but it doesn’t.
Unlike Gothenburg or Malmö, that is.
I mean it sounds perfectly fine
Yeah, it's fine. But that's all it is. Fine. Dull. Beige. "Adequate". Perfect if you don't care about never fitting in (I tried. Really damn hard), or having decent bars, or good (beyond average) cuisine...
But I can honestly say that it's no mystery to me why most expats (from other Western countries) hate it here...
Did your friends go up North? Because I believe that's where most of the more exciting, "authentic" experiences are to be found.
Stockholm is just meh. Overpriced, over-competitive meh.
No they were in Stockholm, but they also visited other areas.
Adequate sounds perfectly good tbh, considering the rest of the entire earth. I don't know why that should constitute feelings of hate
Guy, you know that the Sweden that you are defending is dying, right? That the demographics of the Swedish population have an end date for Swedish culture?
Whatever you like or don't like about Sweden will end in your lifetime. The people or leaders (it doesn't really matter which) invited in a literal army of invaders to out-breed and out-vote the Swedish people. Their days are very definitely numbered unless they literally pick up arms to fight off the "immigrants", which they won't. They would literally rather die. To my mind that is a glaring flaw in the national character.
So it may look adequate. But it isn't. It is dying day by day. Go and visit it before it is gone so you can tell your grandkids what it was like.
Visit London while you are at it.
…you high?
Some of this is just European politeness. You keep people at bay at your castle walls, and then show your true self beyond those walls. The biggest question I get from a newly moved in German to America is why everyone is smiling all the time. I have to explain it's American politeness, and is just as strong as European walls.
On the other hand, Sweden is full of people who are obsessed with being better than everyone else. It's why they went socialist, because they were told it's better. It's why they're assholes, because they think they're better. I have good friends who are swedish, and they admit this is a big problem.