Well more broadly the US had to adapt far reaching initiatives that were close to National Socialism to win the war. You had governments controlling everything through rationing, cracking down on war desent, domestic spying yada yada.
And following the war the importation of German scientists and specialists continuing working under those same initiatives bleed into and influenced those programs, that they became the same things the US fought against. The American space race was a continuination of the German rocket program, for example.
I'm wondering what some of the smart people on this forum feel about this theory
The Frankfurt school fled Germany prior to Hitler's election. A bunch of Rocket Scientists liek von Braun, didn't have the political clout to do anything approaching the National Socialist platform. The proof of that is de-segregation and the Hart-Cellar act occurred not long after WW2. That is the opposite of the National Socialist platform.
It's probably me, but I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. Are you saying German scientists who fled NAZI Germany had a greater influence on post war America?
They had no influence. Your youtube video was bullshit.
They can put bullshit on YouTube, those bastards. Thanks
It is youtube. It's all bullshit.
You ain't wrong. I wasn't being sarcastic with the thanks. I appreciated your opinion
Wait until you find out how the US handled the Civil War! This idea that war dissent was a modern thing is hilarious boomer conjecture because they believe Vietnam was somehow unique. The difference is they weren’t beaten, jailed or flat out disappeared for dissent. Espionage act was 1917 and sedition act in 1918.
Fabian socialism was already heavily involved in US politics by the turn of the 20th century. The suffrage movements were pushed heavily by them, the Wilson cabinet was heavily socialist.
While I'm not a historian, just a regular guy who enjoys history, I'm aware of some Unconstitutional acts during the Civil War. Lincoln suspendeding habeas corpus, the jailing of copper heads, the expansion of war powers, the illegal creation of the state of West Virginia.
You don't have to like Lincoln, but a cursory comparison to basically every other civil war everywhere else shows that these 'illegal acts' are peanuts compared to mass killings, torture, etc.
I mean, just look at the Irish Civil War.
I wouldn't call controlling the press through jailing, violence and intimidation peanuts. Nor do I think preventing elected members of a state from voting, to get a desired outcome is peanuts.
Compared to lining up thousands of people and shooting them extrajudicially? It's peanuts.
Wartime censorship is the norm throughout the world. Not saying it's a good thing. If people knew the truth, they wouldn't be supporting wars.
If we want to get super technical about it every battle was lining thousands of people up and shooting them extra judicially, lol.
My only thought is you have a big boner for Lincoln and your bias makes you soften the crimes Lincoln committed.
That's an accepted and unavoidable part of war.
I'm less negative towards Lincoln than most people here, but that's in part because I live n the Old World where election cancelation, media censorship and killing of civilians are common practice during wars. And then you guys show up with your sweet summer child vibes, being outraged about all sorts of relatively mild things... and I feel like I'm in a normal vs. dark face meme.
What makes them mild things? I think the argument that worst things have happened isn't a fair argument against his crimes. The man is hugely responsible for the deaths of 600,000 people, sorry if me saying that brings out a paternalistic urge to sneer at us mere muggles
Did you somehow miss the destruction of Southern cities and infrastructure (after the war was already over) and starvation of its people?
I actually did. I'm not aware of any destruction of cities and infrastructure after the war.
While there was some level of Nazi infiltration, personally I place much more blame on both existing American traitors, and global communist infiltration. Frankfurt School nonsense did way more damage than Operation Paperclip.
Which is not even getting into the coming Soviet infiltration (again with support from American traitors) during the Cold War.
Just look at Buckley who said we needed Big Government to combat the totalitarian Soviet threat.
His argument was that, to fight the Soviets, America needed to create "a totalitarian bureaucracy within our shores."
It barely even matters who did it, or what ideology; the problem was America was weakened and vulnerable, and bad actors both within and without destroyed our nation and our culture.
If the Marxists hadn't fucked us so hard, perhaps Operation Paperclip would have been more damaging, as the Nazis would likely have done the same thing. Because the opportunity was there.
To paraphrase that famous tweet, to beat the Soviet Union you had to become a gay retarded version of it.
To paraphrase further, "Fight fire with gay retarded fire."
The video addressed the anti-Communist fervor as a symptom of the Paperclip bleed. NAZIs hated commies so the American government institutions that had a bunch of NAZIs were tremendously anti-Communist, not pro America or Capitalists
Communists generally try to frame anti-communism as 'Nazism' or 'fascism', not as a rational response to a horrendous system. Claiming that it was Nazis brought to America who made anti-communism fits that narrative, which is why they make that claim (I'm making some assumptions about the video creator, he may also just be stupid, or I may be wrong in my judgments).
That said, anti-communism did bleed over into violations of civil rights in the 1950s, even though edgelords like to praise McCarthy for... making claims about random people with no evidence?
I would say that anti-communist fervor was more of a cause of Paperclip than a result of it. "These Nazis aren't so bad, they can help us beat the commies."
You're confusing Senator McCarthy with the House Unamerican Activities Committee. McCarthy went after government employees, mostly in the State Department and often confirmed by the Verona Papers after the Cold War ended. HUAC, originally formed for the brown scare we had before the war, shifted gears to go after reds instead and mostly went after random people in the entertainment industry.
This was an intentional misinformation pushed by lefties. Even though McCarthy had nothing to do with the HUAC propaganda often paints him as having been in control of it.
I see your point.
Post-WW2 America became the militaristic bully that Germany wanted to be. I'm not sure what it has to do with Operation Paperclip. You could argue that it's part of a moral collapse, but if you look at what the US had been doing on its own hemisphere - it wasn't exactly 'moral' before.
I'm not clear on the details of Paperclip. I assume most were fairly apolitical scientists. However, there are instances of Japanese and German war criminals and practitioners of horrendous medical experiments being let off to participate in what later became MK-Ultra.
Yep, we were already a regional militaristic bully before the world wars. Ever heard of Smedley Butler? Marine general who won the medal of honor twice and later wrote a book titled War is a Racket. The way he described this period was, "I served in all commissioned ranks from a second lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers." Only difference was we moved from regional to world-class after the war.
Hard to believe this was written 100 years ago and not today.
Yeah, between the banana wars and the business plot, reading up on Butler's life is a pretty wild rabbit hole.
I don't think the argument is a moral one. It's not so much the NAZIs made America bad, it's that they became so intrinsic in American post war government and programs that those programs became NAZI'fied. And because those programs were so important to post war America, America became what the NAZIs wanted Germany to become.
Take NASA and the space race. The American space program was filled with former NAZIs and they were pretty much continuing the rocket program the NAZIs started. So how much NAZI influence is baked into the American space program?
So a more retarded version of "captive Greece captured its savage conqueror"? I don't see how that would remotely be possible, let alone that we don't have any evidence for it.
Can you link the video? (BTW, I wanted to say that people should not get their history from tards on Youtube, but as I'm as guilty of watching tards on Youtube, I felt hypocritical saying that.)
How exactly would Nazi influence manifest itself in a space program? There is no Nazi way to build a rocket.
I can link the video but it's about the show "Man in the High Castle" not a deep dive into it.
https://youtu.be/FOBPjCPIrVk?si=eRIlueXpCWfrn9p4
Considering the outcome of NAZI rockets versus everyone else the NAZI way seems to be the correct way, lol. I don't think it's about the blueprints or nuts and bolts. It's a more metaphysical argument that something so important to post war America, like the space race was basically possible and won because of NAZI scientists. Now the extent of their ideologies bleeding into those institutions is what I'm curious about. It could be none, like you suggest.
If I can rely on an AI summary, bit of a vague argument. Nazi scientists being mainstreamed is probably more a case of "them being on ourr side" than their ideology prevailing.
Tribalism is probably the most powerful force in the world. Just look at the people who oppose "regime change" until their cult leader does one. Or for that matter, all the leftist anti-war people who opposed war until Obama did them.
Hard to quantify, I think. Also, I doubt that most of those people were hardcore Nazis. But let's do the hypothetical. Let's say that Nazis completely took over NASA. Would that really have that much of an impact? The Soviet nuclear program was famously pioneered by Andrei Sakharov. All it got him was prestige that he later used to be a dissident.
I do think it's hard to quantify. But it's a fact the space program wouldn't have been as advanced without the Paperclip Germans.
The space race is just one aspect, you mentioned the doctors who came over and helped create the mk-ultra program.
I don't know how much, if any bleeding happened, but I'm curious about it
It did. We put Nazi's in the CIA. They fucked the place up pretty good. It's part of the reason we kept the cold war going with Russia. The US had no natural reason to care about them, but ex-Nazi's had a score to settle.
The CIA doesn't like to let internal information out, but there are a few documents you can find, which show exactly this. They brought in the enemy and quickly lost control of the effort.
For YouTube videos that actually discuss this, you could look at Feral Historian's The Two Eagles series. German officers from the SS and Gestapo found jobs in just about every major American authority post WW2, including the CIA, NSA, FBI and the courts.
These are the people who think every last German baby should be boiled alive and the nation handed over to the jews or been colonized by Africans. The only thing I want to hear from their mouths are the pleas for mercy as they're being executed.
Didn’t the creation of the federal reserve also have a part in that?
The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913. So to me while it's creation was a step towards a socialist America, it would be separate from the Paperclip stuff
Gotcha
It wasn’t the Germans we imported that subverted our country. It was the people that the Germans were fighting against we imported that did it. If we had listened to those Germans, we would be much better off today.
Jim Marrs wrote a decent book covering some of this idea. https://archive.org/details/riseoffourthreic0000marr
Appreciate it