I don't know about Murray's new book itself, but the article is a mixed bag. The discussion of IQ is fine, but then there is stuff like this.
abandonment of the American principle of a meritocracy and treatment of citizens as individuals, not members of a race, ethnic group, or tribe.
That's only been an "American principle" since the 1960s, if ever. See the Naturalization Act of 1790. It's revisionist history to say that America was a "color blind" meritocracy at its founding. This is a faction of liberals trying to appeal to American traditions that never existed.
Their vision for America will result in a multiracial society with an East-Asian upper class, white middle class, and black and mestizo lower classes. How do you get blacks and mestizos to accept "their place" in the resultant hierarchy? I've yet to see anyone who advocates for "IQ nationalism" offer any worthwhile insight as to how to get there. Also, how do you stop the elites from mobilizing the lower class against the middle class? This is already happening with BLM and has a long history with other race riots.
I also question what all this "meritocracy" is supposed to accomplish. What's the point of such a diverse nation? If I wanted to be ruled by Asians, I'd move to China or Japan.
You make a good point but I don’t know how else we can operate outside of meritocracy. We currently live in a society that punishes you for success, encourages you when you show bad behavior, and constantly making excuses for failure (not your fault you failed, blame slavery).
I’m black and I’m aware of the average IQ studies but I was fortunate to have a two parent home and a mom who insisted we read on our own and despised using race as a crutch. She also made us memorize vocabulary words. I’m average intelligence at best but I will say I’m grateful for having a love for reading instilled at a young age. My dad constantly told me the world wasn’t fair and that nobody owes me anything. I hated it at the time but I think more people need to hear that now.
All this to say that focus and discipline can help someone with a lower IQ but you bring up a major issue. As long as there are lower classes there will always be those who will tell them that their situations aren’t their fault and stoke anger. I’m not sure how to deal with that.
I don't like discussing race on this sub cause the mods are sensitive but I'll give it a shot, maybe they'll listen to my name...
Segregation is how we operate. We're already going toward this end but haven't realized it yet. Black movies, black businesses, black culture. black music etc... How do you think Chinese people operate when they come into a foreign city? They setup their China town, their friends kids all are friends with their friends kids, same schools, shop at same local businesses etc... Hell, even white or jewish democrats and liberals that push integration then go and move to a 96% white neighborhood. People don't truly want integration and if they do want it people should be allowed to want it at their own pace rather than have it rammed down their throats by governments.
Step 1: Repeal the Civil Rights Act.
Forced integration is a failure IMO and actually harms everyone in the process. Right now it is harming whites the most. This whole D&I crap seems to be nothing more than punishment for white people. This is how larger nations functioned for centuries. The X race would stick to their side, the Y race to their side. Everyone is happy. If the country is under attack they maybe join forces for a time etc...
If we actually stopped pushing forced integration and let different groups naturally segregate, I think everyone would be better off in the long run.
I tend to associate with anyone regardless of race and have friends of different races but I’m all for not forcing people together who don’t want to be. I tend to have traditional minded Christian like myself as my closest friends.
There definitely is a very strong anti white sentiment for sure but I wouldn’t forcefully segregate or integrate. If it makes you happier to only associate with your own race then be happy. I have some dear friends who are white and I do have some white ancestry so I have some distant cousins I’m close to as well.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts though. I can agree with you to a point but I’d never forcefully segregate or integrate. But I don’t think you were against voluntary associations
I'm not against voluntary associations just against people forcing themselves on others on the grounds of discrimination if they are not welcomed.
So for example if I say you can't shop here because you're black. That's fine. If you say I have to serve you because it's a hate crime not to serve you because you're black, that's a problem.
No disagreement from me. Yea it always annoys me when people make such demands. Like that Christian cake maker. On the flip side there was a case in Seattle or California where a gay business owner kicked out some Christians. Which is fine so long as you don’t get upset when it’s the other way.
Ok so we generally agree. I’ve had that thought before too. Let people associate with who they want.
I mean, it starts to get a little trickier in modern society. Why are my tax dollars going toward welfare for black people? I only want welfare to go toward white people... same for healthcare and everything etc... This is IMO an argument for why all government funded social programs are unjust.
A voluntary tax system or I personally would rather help the less fortunate through my church or private charities. I don’t the government is in the business of actually helping people (big shock). I used to be more of an anarcho capitalist but that seems unrealistic but ideally I’d like to see multiple voluntary societies. That is unrealistic as well though
I mean it’s not a ton but it’s there. Most of my closest white ancestors are due to masters having kids with their slaves. It is what it is. It doesn’t bother me. Thanks That’s what I like about this group. I understand about stats and demographics but as a Christian I try to see everyone as my brother and sister and I fail at that sometimes but I try. Like I said I know the data but I try to see the individual. I think people are more than their race. But that is just me.
I do appreciate your input. I’d rather have real honest talk than someone telling me what they want me to hear.
You're able to have the attitude you have because you benefit from being associated with those of a higher standing. It's easy to understand third worlders wanting to leech off of the first world. You're not preaching unity and love like your posts are supposed to imply. You're breaching your group (lower on the totem) intermingle with a group higher on the totem and benefit from it. It's a one sided transaction and obviously the lower half are going to approve of it because it's benefiting them.
This is why you never trust people promoting these sort of ideas. People do things that benefit them and groups they're loyal to. Telling others to open their arms to you benefits you so you're better off promoting it than pushing back against it. It's selfishness disguised as virtue.
I was born in the U.S., but I get the point you are trying to make Nobody has to open their arms to me. I just said that’s how I try to live and I fail at my own goals. I have many flaws and issues. I’ve said many times people should be allowed to associate with whoever they want. I mean the hatred against whites in this country is very obvious not going to deny it and I know about stats and demographics. Not trying to intermingle or be a fake person. I originally found this group because I was tired of wokeness in nerd culture.
Trust me I’m not demanding that you talk to me or open your arms to me.
What people say about race IQ measurements isn't really relevant to an individual, but more interesting when talking about large groups of people, and how to best fix societal problems. We should teach people not to be offended by discussion of this data, since it has nothing to do with them as a person who might individually fall anywhere on scale.
Individuals with low IQ living within high-IQ societies will tend to be lifted up by culture. (i.e. focus on reading, self-improvement, responsibility, morality). Individuals with high IQ living in low-IQ societies will tend to be brought down (crabs in a bucket) unless there's a class/caste system to support them. However their high IQ should make it easier for them to adapt to challenges.
And that is precisely why I hate it when I see how society bends over backwards to lower standards and make excuses. You are doing them no favors because once they fail in the real world they will most likely point the finger at anything but themselves
That’s true. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment it was my issue with seeing things how I would like them to be so I love the ideal of life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I always added personally as long as you are willing to work for it.
Another thing to consider: why should white nations be overtaken and controlled by Asians/Jews based on a slightly higher IQ? White IQs were high enough to build the great nations in the first place, so why should the white children be subservient to foreign ethnicities who offer no necessary benefit to the nation?
The Asian/Jew IQ differential is certainly overhyped due to the factors you mentioned, but nevertheless a meritocratic, academic-based admissions policy would result in a massive Asian influx into American colleges. IIRC the UC system is 20% Asian despite some of the worst racebending AA policies in the country. Asian immigration selected for top achievers in much the same way as China selects the Shanghai schools you mentioned.
Meritocracy is an laudable goal. However, like all laudable goals it is bastardized and weaponized against Europeans. The European man is judged on his individual accomplishments in the here and now. Those accomplishments are then measured against some ambiguous accomplishments of blacks as a whole spanning over 400 years of slavery because everyone knows they built everything. Somehow the European man must measure up to the ethereal accomplishments of the black race when without the direction of European masters they'd still be in Africa selling off their brothers, sisters and daughters to the highest bidders.
It's revisionist history to say that America was a "color blind" meritocracy at its founding.
You can pretend Pennsylvania colony didn't exist all you like, but it did. It's not our fault all the rest of the colonies were founded by sects that thought it was righteous to be a prig.
There is a forgotten history to this country, that a large number of people came here GENUINELY believing that all people were equals, and had been believing that since the English civil war.
At the time of founding a large minority of the population of America were Quakers. By the Civil War, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Iowa were Quaker majority states.
The only reason we're forgotten is because the Civil War wiped us out. Huge numbers of Quaker men (paradoxically) enlisted in the early "Union Generals are shit" phase of the war, and continued enlisting in the "Grant gets people killed" phase of the war.
The survivors mostly converted to Lutheranism or Methodism because they were sending all the Union Army chaplains.
You see, prior to 1838, black men could vote in PA. They lost that in the 1838 convention and regained it in 1870.
But that occurred because PA was no longer majority Quaker, they'd moved west (and been outnumbered by Irish pouring into Philadelphia). Ohio had de facto black suffrage (despite its crummy 1802 constitution), and Iowa had explicit black suffrage from the day its constitution was enacted to now.
I enjoy Molyneux. What did he say that was so bad? Nothing I heard ever came across as racist. Well, to the perpetually offended I guess he sounds racist
A number of discussions that SM had about genetics and intelligence being the most determining factors of success in life, and the disbelief that humans are just empty vessels at birth to be filled up with either good stuff or bad stuff by the environments around them. Genetics when applied to humans is racist, therefore Molyneaux must be racist.
Anybody who has kids realizes there there was already a pre-determined person there from the getgo and they were never empty vessels to be determined later.
I guess I meant in the sense that he never stated he disliked someone over their race. He has interesting perspectives. I may not agree with him on everything but I like to listen to him. I remember he had Walter Williams on and had a great discussion with him
I don't know about Murray's new book itself, but the article is a mixed bag. The discussion of IQ is fine, but then there is stuff like this.
That's only been an "American principle" since the 1960s, if ever. See the Naturalization Act of 1790. It's revisionist history to say that America was a "color blind" meritocracy at its founding. This is a faction of liberals trying to appeal to American traditions that never existed.
Their vision for America will result in a multiracial society with an East-Asian upper class, white middle class, and black and mestizo lower classes. How do you get blacks and mestizos to accept "their place" in the resultant hierarchy? I've yet to see anyone who advocates for "IQ nationalism" offer any worthwhile insight as to how to get there. Also, how do you stop the elites from mobilizing the lower class against the middle class? This is already happening with BLM and has a long history with other race riots.
I also question what all this "meritocracy" is supposed to accomplish. What's the point of such a diverse nation? If I wanted to be ruled by Asians, I'd move to China or Japan.
You make a good point but I don’t know how else we can operate outside of meritocracy. We currently live in a society that punishes you for success, encourages you when you show bad behavior, and constantly making excuses for failure (not your fault you failed, blame slavery).
I’m black and I’m aware of the average IQ studies but I was fortunate to have a two parent home and a mom who insisted we read on our own and despised using race as a crutch. She also made us memorize vocabulary words. I’m average intelligence at best but I will say I’m grateful for having a love for reading instilled at a young age. My dad constantly told me the world wasn’t fair and that nobody owes me anything. I hated it at the time but I think more people need to hear that now.
All this to say that focus and discipline can help someone with a lower IQ but you bring up a major issue. As long as there are lower classes there will always be those who will tell them that their situations aren’t their fault and stoke anger. I’m not sure how to deal with that.
I don't like discussing race on this sub cause the mods are sensitive but I'll give it a shot, maybe they'll listen to my name...
Segregation is how we operate. We're already going toward this end but haven't realized it yet. Black movies, black businesses, black culture. black music etc... How do you think Chinese people operate when they come into a foreign city? They setup their China town, their friends kids all are friends with their friends kids, same schools, shop at same local businesses etc... Hell, even white or jewish democrats and liberals that push integration then go and move to a 96% white neighborhood. People don't truly want integration and if they do want it people should be allowed to want it at their own pace rather than have it rammed down their throats by governments.
Step 1: Repeal the Civil Rights Act.
Forced integration is a failure IMO and actually harms everyone in the process. Right now it is harming whites the most. This whole D&I crap seems to be nothing more than punishment for white people. This is how larger nations functioned for centuries. The X race would stick to their side, the Y race to their side. Everyone is happy. If the country is under attack they maybe join forces for a time etc...
If we actually stopped pushing forced integration and let different groups naturally segregate, I think everyone would be better off in the long run.
I tend to associate with anyone regardless of race and have friends of different races but I’m all for not forcing people together who don’t want to be. I tend to have traditional minded Christian like myself as my closest friends.
There definitely is a very strong anti white sentiment for sure but I wouldn’t forcefully segregate or integrate. If it makes you happier to only associate with your own race then be happy. I have some dear friends who are white and I do have some white ancestry so I have some distant cousins I’m close to as well.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts though. I can agree with you to a point but I’d never forcefully segregate or integrate. But I don’t think you were against voluntary associations
I'm not against voluntary associations just against people forcing themselves on others on the grounds of discrimination if they are not welcomed.
So for example if I say you can't shop here because you're black. That's fine. If you say I have to serve you because it's a hate crime not to serve you because you're black, that's a problem.
No disagreement from me. Yea it always annoys me when people make such demands. Like that Christian cake maker. On the flip side there was a case in Seattle or California where a gay business owner kicked out some Christians. Which is fine so long as you don’t get upset when it’s the other way.
Ok so we generally agree. I’ve had that thought before too. Let people associate with who they want.
I mean, it starts to get a little trickier in modern society. Why are my tax dollars going toward welfare for black people? I only want welfare to go toward white people... same for healthcare and everything etc... This is IMO an argument for why all government funded social programs are unjust.
A voluntary tax system or I personally would rather help the less fortunate through my church or private charities. I don’t the government is in the business of actually helping people (big shock). I used to be more of an anarcho capitalist but that seems unrealistic but ideally I’d like to see multiple voluntary societies. That is unrealistic as well though
You're kinda proving the whole point in a one-off fragment of a sentence.
Cause, I'd like to introduce you to my good friend, Effect.
I mean it’s not a ton but it’s there. Most of my closest white ancestors are due to masters having kids with their slaves. It is what it is. It doesn’t bother me. Thanks That’s what I like about this group. I understand about stats and demographics but as a Christian I try to see everyone as my brother and sister and I fail at that sometimes but I try. Like I said I know the data but I try to see the individual. I think people are more than their race. But that is just me. I do appreciate your input. I’d rather have real honest talk than someone telling me what they want me to hear.
You're able to have the attitude you have because you benefit from being associated with those of a higher standing. It's easy to understand third worlders wanting to leech off of the first world. You're not preaching unity and love like your posts are supposed to imply. You're breaching your group (lower on the totem) intermingle with a group higher on the totem and benefit from it. It's a one sided transaction and obviously the lower half are going to approve of it because it's benefiting them.
This is why you never trust people promoting these sort of ideas. People do things that benefit them and groups they're loyal to. Telling others to open their arms to you benefits you so you're better off promoting it than pushing back against it. It's selfishness disguised as virtue.
I was born in the U.S., but I get the point you are trying to make Nobody has to open their arms to me. I just said that’s how I try to live and I fail at my own goals. I have many flaws and issues. I’ve said many times people should be allowed to associate with whoever they want. I mean the hatred against whites in this country is very obvious not going to deny it and I know about stats and demographics. Not trying to intermingle or be a fake person. I originally found this group because I was tired of wokeness in nerd culture.
Trust me I’m not demanding that you talk to me or open your arms to me.
What people say about race IQ measurements isn't really relevant to an individual, but more interesting when talking about large groups of people, and how to best fix societal problems. We should teach people not to be offended by discussion of this data, since it has nothing to do with them as a person who might individually fall anywhere on scale.
Individuals with low IQ living within high-IQ societies will tend to be lifted up by culture. (i.e. focus on reading, self-improvement, responsibility, morality). Individuals with high IQ living in low-IQ societies will tend to be brought down (crabs in a bucket) unless there's a class/caste system to support them. However their high IQ should make it easier for them to adapt to challenges.
And that is precisely why I hate it when I see how society bends over backwards to lower standards and make excuses. You are doing them no favors because once they fail in the real world they will most likely point the finger at anything but themselves
I agree. Thank you. This is very well put.
That’s true. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment it was my issue with seeing things how I would like them to be so I love the ideal of life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I always added personally as long as you are willing to work for it.
Another thing to consider: why should white nations be overtaken and controlled by Asians/Jews based on a slightly higher IQ? White IQs were high enough to build the great nations in the first place, so why should the white children be subservient to foreign ethnicities who offer no necessary benefit to the nation?
The Asian/Jew IQ differential is certainly overhyped due to the factors you mentioned, but nevertheless a meritocratic, academic-based admissions policy would result in a massive Asian influx into American colleges. IIRC the UC system is 20% Asian despite some of the worst racebending AA policies in the country. Asian immigration selected for top achievers in much the same way as China selects the Shanghai schools you mentioned.
Japan and South Korea usually score near the top don't they? Are they only allowing certain schools to be tested? (honestly asking)
I could totally believe China is full of shit-tier intelligent apes since it's actually an empire of multitudes of ethnicities. Han Privilege is real.
I also see that same sort of nepotism among gays, so it's not simply a property of race.
Meritocracy is an laudable goal. However, like all laudable goals it is bastardized and weaponized against Europeans. The European man is judged on his individual accomplishments in the here and now. Those accomplishments are then measured against some ambiguous accomplishments of blacks as a whole spanning over 400 years of slavery because everyone knows they built everything. Somehow the European man must measure up to the ethereal accomplishments of the black race when without the direction of European masters they'd still be in Africa selling off their brothers, sisters and daughters to the highest bidders.
You can pretend Pennsylvania colony didn't exist all you like, but it did. It's not our fault all the rest of the colonies were founded by sects that thought it was righteous to be a prig.
????????????
Quakers.
There is a forgotten history to this country, that a large number of people came here GENUINELY believing that all people were equals, and had been believing that since the English civil war.
At the time of founding a large minority of the population of America were Quakers. By the Civil War, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Iowa were Quaker majority states.
The only reason we're forgotten is because the Civil War wiped us out. Huge numbers of Quaker men (paradoxically) enlisted in the early "Union Generals are shit" phase of the war, and continued enlisting in the "Grant gets people killed" phase of the war.
The survivors mostly converted to Lutheranism or Methodism because they were sending all the Union Army chaplains.
I know about Quakers, but Pennsylvania still had slavery and didn't have racial equality.
The Dutch did, and it was outlawed before the revolutionary war was even finished with the Gradual Abolition Act.
It didn't really abolish slavery, only set it in motion, and there still wasn't racial equality.
Yes and no.
You see, prior to 1838, black men could vote in PA. They lost that in the 1838 convention and regained it in 1870.
But that occurred because PA was no longer majority Quaker, they'd moved west (and been outnumbered by Irish pouring into Philadelphia). Ohio had de facto black suffrage (despite its crummy 1802 constitution), and Iowa had explicit black suffrage from the day its constitution was enacted to now.
I wonder if my local library has this book?
Probably not the new one, they might have the Bell Curve.
Talking about these truths is what got Stephan Molyneaux tossed off of youtube and labeled raciiiss.
I remember reading that after extensive research and sifting through the data that Murray was afraid to publish the findings and sat on it for years.
I enjoy Molyneux. What did he say that was so bad? Nothing I heard ever came across as racist. Well, to the perpetually offended I guess he sounds racist
A number of discussions that SM had about genetics and intelligence being the most determining factors of success in life, and the disbelief that humans are just empty vessels at birth to be filled up with either good stuff or bad stuff by the environments around them. Genetics when applied to humans is racist, therefore Molyneaux must be racist.
Anybody who has kids realizes there there was already a pre-determined person there from the getgo and they were never empty vessels to be determined later.
I guess I meant in the sense that he never stated he disliked someone over their race. He has interesting perspectives. I may not agree with him on everything but I like to listen to him. I remember he had Walter Williams on and had a great discussion with him
Molyneux can't promote racialism because he's Jewish and his audience is mostly not. If he promotes judging based on race he loses his shekels.
Sorry for the dumb question but I see the term racialist. Is that the same as a race realist?
Any sort of racial leanings. He promotes an ideology that's anti-racism for a reason.
I’ll check it out. I’ve heard some of his interviews and can appreciate his honesty