Something I thought was pretty interesting was the interaction between Johnnie and the civilian doctor at the Federal Building. At the end of the conversation the following words slipped out of the doctor.
"Now if they let medical men run things-"
I won't really spoil anything but later on in the book there is a discussion about technocrats and pseudo-scientists running things in the world's history. This line kind of foreshadows that a bit.
But what I really wanted to point out was the arrogance of this statement. The current government system they have in place has produced the best results out of any government system in history, by every metric. And still you have these elitists thinking they can do a better job despite not being elected or having any knowledge or experience about governance.
Just look at whats going on right now. You have unelected officials like Dr. Fauci and the CDC dictating national policy when they have no business doing so. And look at the mess their "leadership" has created.
Something I thought was pretty interesting was the interaction between Johnnie and the civilian doctor at the Federal Building. At the end of the conversation the following words slipped out of the doctor.
"Now if they let medical men run things-"
Man that part hit pretty good especially in light of current events, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring it up.
But what I really wanted to point out was the arrogance of this statement. The current government system they have in place has produced the best results out of any government system in history, by every metric. And still you have these elitists thinking they can do a better job despite not being elected or having any knowledge or experience about governance.
But, as we'll learn later...
Those disdainful, arrogant intelligentsia lack the one thing that the system is SET UP to select for. There is no danger to the system in letting them have their opinions freely because they will NEVER act on it.
So I've always found it a bit of a bummer that Doogie Howser, Military Psychic is instead just plain Carl, Military Electronics Nerd in the book. It's an interesting concept portrayed pretty well by Neil Patrick Harris. Honestly, though, the idea was rather wasted by the script: Harris' character pretty much exists to give the iconic "It's Afraid!" line at the end of the movie. Anyway:
Heinlein does a great job hooking the reader's attention in these opening chapters, especially considering that much of it consists of lengthy speeches by various teachers and military men laying out their philosophy. The most famous one even made it (with a few changes) into the movie:
Anyone who clings to the
historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that ‘violence never settles anything’ I would
advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them
debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the
Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor,
and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always
paid for it with their lives and freedoms."
There is an interesting contrast and comparison here between Heinlein and Roddenberry('s writers). As much as I love Star Trek, Picard is wrong when he contradicts Colonel DuBois that "power flows from the barrel of a gun." Even Trek seems to concede this with the Hugh debacle: Picard had a chance to destroy the Borg forever, but got cold feet and decided not to go through with it, a mistake that lead to an untold amount of death and suffering at their cybernetic hands throughout the galaxy. Indeed, the writers seemed to concede this point in spectacular fashion with an entire series called Deep Space Nine. Sure, Sisko attempted diplomacy at various points -- but talking is never the answer, not against the implacable Dominion. It took the Federation years of grit, tenacity, blood and sweat to finally throw off their would-be oppressors. DuBois understood this, while Picard railed against it -- and even in Trek's optimistic world, indirectly made the whole galaxy pay for his decision.
War is just another form of negotiation. Lots of people seem to view it as senseless murder and chaos but there are values in doing battle. The end goal of armed conflict is not to inflict harm on the other side, it is to get them to do what you want. Most commonly it is to get the other side to cede territorial control over to your side but there are many other goals it could be used for. For example, the purpose of the A-Bombs in Japan were not to eliminate military or infrastructure targets, or to simply inflict harm. They were used to force the Japanese to surrender because the US did not want to invade mainland Japan.
The first chapter of the book discusses this a bit. The objectives of the raid were to come in, cause confusion, and damage major infrastructure and utilities. In fact they were told to keep casualties to a minimum. The goal of the attack was to get the skinnies to withdraw their support from the bugs, that's it. The Federation simply used force to get the skinnies to do what they wanted and nothing more.
Does it say in these chapters, or a later one, that the skinnies were supporting the bugs? I didn't recall that from my first reading. In fact I had thought that the book made a point of the bugs being so different from humans in how they thought (perfect communists: a hivemind not afraid to sacrifice 'individuals' for the benefit of the whole) that it would be impossible for them to have peaceful diplomatic relations with a hominid race (though I will confess this might very well be a misconception based on the massive number of 'bug' races that exist in sci-fi.)
Yeah, it gets brought up somewhere later in the book. It's been a while since I first read it and I do remember the part about the bug race being "perfect communists" but I don't remember if they were a true hivemind. I think it was more like certain castes of bugs didn't have any value beyond the collective so they just sacrifice themselves.
The book does point out that the bugs are intelligent, enough to use organized maneuvers and to even build spaceships. So it stands to reason that they could form some kind of alliance with the skinnies.
I see a bunch of you are rereading now, but I'm a first-time reader, so the sarcastic little "funnies" in this really surprised me.
It was interesting how during chapter 2 you would expect Johnnie to enlist because he is so very sure about his duties and wanting to do it. Especially because they try to discourage them so much.
But then he ends up doing it, even though he just basically goes with the flow. Amusing, I guess?
There was also a tiny little moment that is not important, but I found it very... realistic, I suppose. When his dad tells him they knew he got sick smoking, but they ignored it intentionally. That is such a typical teenage thing; you assume your parents have nooo idea. Instantly humanised both of them so much to me.
There was also a tiny little moment that is not important, but I found it very... realistic, I suppose
I think it's the little things like this that really add a lot of depth to characters. You can get a sense of that by just what they do over the course of a plot but you get a heck of a lot of insight into Johnny just in that one part.
Instantly humanised both of them so much to me.
100%. Reading that made me remember the times I'd sneak bottles of beer and thinking I was so clever getting them from the very back of the fridge. As an adult, yeah I definitely got a pass because there's no way you wouldn't miss a bottle mysteriously disappearing 🤣
After reading the combat sequence at the start I'm absolutely amazed at how the book lacks the heavy patina of zeerust you'd think a sci-fi book from 1959 would have. Though, I think that just gets to how influential this book's been on sci-fi. In that sequence I see the movie "adaptation," I see Halo, I see Aliens, I see all the depictions of future warfare we've had. I forgot just how big Starship Troopers was in this regard and it's a blast getting to experience it again.
So much inspiration for future sci fi. The Aliens drop ship + female pilot. Power armor like the fallout universe. The bugs themselves being the Zerg of Stracraft cannon. Well done Mr Heinlein.
Female pilot seems like a bit of 50s "wokeism" if you want to call it that: the idea that they have better reaction times and make better pilots then men, in an era where it would have been very difficult for a woman to become a pilot. The former is definitely not true -- though I don't know when this was first studied -- and the latter doesn't appear to be supported by evidence with the additional benefit of 60 years' worth of history.
Having just read "A Stranger in a Strange Land'' (also by Heinlen, about the same year) I have to agree. While Stranger has a very retro-futuristic feel to it (language, technology, culture, etc. all very clearly come out of the '60s) Troopers, at least in part due to its influence on modern sci-fi, hardly feels dated at all.
It's been ages since I read this book and it was interesting to re-read the part criticising the idea that "violence never settles anything". This is something I've been thinking about recently - this idea that "violence never settles anything" or "violence is wrong" has seeped into our culture and become engrained. It is so engrained that the media has to report violent protests as "most peaceful" in order to ensure public support of said protests, and all the media needs to do is suggest that other protestors are "violent" to make people turn against them.
It certainly makes false flags very easy to implement. But my thinking goes beyond this - this idea that "violence never settles anything" is greatly beneficial to the elites who seek to control the population. This is because violence is the ultimate leveler. Everyone bleeds, everyone dies. While the elite may have far more resources than most people have, and be able to shield themselves from many negative consequences of their actions, the one thing they can never truly shield themself from is harm itself. So what better way to ensure their own safety then to convince the population that it is somehow morally wrong to use force against them?
It's this mindset that killing is an absolute moral wrong - this mindset that many fans will recognize as a symptom of Batman's severe mental illness, that has pervaded western society. So while criminals get a pass, people that kill in defense of themselves, others and society get lambasted as monsters. This mindset is not logical, it's not healthy for society and it's been turned into a tool to pacify people.
Thankfully in the US it's only partially taken root - you can see the end result of this in the state of the UK and it's self-defense law.
This is one of the most annoying changes to me from the book to the movie. In the movie, Dizzy Flores is a chick that's smitten with Rico from his highschool, who he ignores/rejects in his pursuits of Carmen. They literally just made that change to have one more hot, naked chick in the movie and frankly I find it disrespectful, given Dizzy's fate in the book.
First chapter is a classic throw you into the action and see who the protagonist will become tactic. Quite effective. The reader gets overwhelmed (but not too much so) with everything going on and all the things Johnnie has to think about. The cool power armor gets shown off well, and most importantly, so does the attitude of the men of the Mobile Infantry.
Second chapter I like for all the things you expect to happen that don't. The recruiting office does everything it can to discourage young idiots from joining, but they never reject anyone on technicalities. They accept that they're going to get plenty of duds and roll with it.
It makes you care about a guy who didn't even get mentioned until page 13? Flores? Who dies 3 pages later?
Anyhow, Johnnie kills many thousands of "aliens" by various horrific methods, and we're supposed to feel sorry about one guy dying? Well... it worked and we do! Shows some great skill at writing, eh?
It's a wonderful trick to have super-advanced technology... and the main character is bored of it or totally takes it for granted. PK Dick was a master of doing that too.
I don't think the book mentions (directly) where Johnny went to school (though it does mention his heritage at the end), but suffice it to say 'Rico' probably isn't considered foreign there.
Also, civilians in The Federation have nearly identical rights to citizens (the book elaborates on this more later.) The only distinctions between civilians and citizens are citizens have completed the required (2+ year) term of service in the duties assigned (as stated in chapter 2), and are allowed the privilege of voting and serving in government. And as mentioned in the chapter, literally the only thing that can prevent you from serving a term other than your own choice not to do so, is being ruled mentally unfit to comprehend the oath (which some of the jobs mentioned in chapter 2 and throughout the book indicate is a very low bar, not some sort of onerous literacy test.) In fact, I'd imagine if one of the skinnies from chapter 1 showed up at a recruiting station and indicated they wanted to serve, I don't think they could be turned away.
(For others that have read the book before, please note that I am trying to avoid spoiling anything for those that haven't.)
each and every one of you has cost the gov’ment, counting weapons, armor, ammo, instrumentation, and training, everything, including the way you overeat — has cost, on the hoof, better’n half a million.
~3,750,000 in 2021 dollars for anybody curious, I'm too lazy to check how it compares to real world infantry.
A boy who gets a ‘C-minus’ in Appreciation of Television can’t be all bad.
A boy who gets a ‘C-minus’ in Appreciation of Television can’t be all bad.
This is, I think, one of my favorite 'jokes' in the whole book. And having just read 'Stranger in a Strange Land', Heinlen is fantastic at this when he's not preaching at you (and sometimes even when he is.)
As someone going into this totally blind, I'm glad to see it set in what's essentially an alternate reality of the the "real world" and not just a total fantasy world. Not always the case in sci fi but I think it will make more interesting.
What I take from the first couple chapters is I'm interested to learn more about the history and political makeup of the world. I get the idea we have a dysfunctional mess of a world shrouded with a thin layer of utopia. The first chapter you've got an army going in to do what's essentially an intimidation raid but in the second back in time a bit it's generally happy and "normal." Except maybe the whole military enlistment thing, as apparently they have so many people wanting to enlist, they aren't allowed to turn them down, but they go as far as trying to talk them out of it. It almost comes off as enlistment in the military is a virtue signal.
I'm not sure what gives you the idea that The Federation is a dystopia. I think The Federation of Starship Troopers has some things in common with that of Star Trek, in that Earth itself is peaceful and prosperous, and most of the interesting stuff happens out on the frontier. As Johnny's father says when he's trying to discourage his enlistment:
If there were a war, I'll be the first to cheer you on -- and to put the business on a war footing. But there isn't, and praise God there never will be again. We've outgrown wars. This planet is now peaceful and happy and we enjoy good enough relations with other planets.
They don't do much fighting or have much need for an active military, and what conflicts there are seem to be relatively minor incursions of the type we see in chapter 1. So I think you're right that enlistment in service (not the military, per-se, as lots of the jobs they list in ch. 2 and throughout the book are non-military in nature) is used as a social/virtue signal in many cases.
(For others that have read the book before, please note that I am trying to avoid spoiling anything for those that haven't.)
I think it's actually statements like that from Johnny's father that give me the idea. It's almost too perfect with things like "outgrown wars." I guess I get the feeling that combined with the knowledge of the raid in the first chapter that the government has put up a facade.
Perhaps I'm totally off base, I do think getting some context to the first chapter will help. But hey, thinking about it at this point being blind to the rest of the book is part of it for me...
Remember when this book was written. This was right after WWII. A lot of people thought that we'd never do something like that again. A war to end all wars.
I'd like to hear your re-evaluation of that final point of yours after you've finished the book, because I can't be sure I wouldn't accidentally spoil things for you if we talked about it.
I think pose whatever questions you have to get things started is a good idea. Heading to the gym with this loaded as an audiobook so I'll be back to the thread
Get a whiff that this is a multi-ethnic and to an extent multi-cultural (due to the references to various religions practiced by the soldiers) society that makes those things secondary to the higher loyalty to the Terran Federation. Is this the fabled high-functioning globo-homo society we've been promised but hasn't been delivered?
If so it's interesting to see this come out about the same time as Star Trek explores that same theme and right around the time the West starts to go down the globo-homo path.
The Federation sounds serviceable as citizen with responsibility runs things, but image powerful civilian entities lobbying some politicians to do their biddings, how would that be prevented or minimized? How would that be different then what we have now?
The book covers that later, and I don't want to spoil too much, but effectively Citizens self select for an attribute that minimizes the risk from that (as to serve in government you must also be a citizen.)
That's the entire basis for the government. That only those who are willing to put the needs of humanity ahead of their personal needs are allowed to serve in the government..
It's not perfect but the idea is that the type of people to accept bribes to damage society would be weeded out before they would be eligible to run for office.
Since I'm new at doing this would you guys like me to pose any questions in the post to spur discussion or should it be directed by the users in the comments?
I think it can go both ways. You've had a decent response so far, so I don't think it will be necessary to guide discussion. As a bystander, I am interested in hearing what your thoughts are, so maybe you should just put them in a comment replying to yourself? If you add on to your main post, I only ask you keep it formatted to aid readability (you already are doing this).
Yes, and it would suck to have a critical point glossed over because no one felt like volunteering their thoughts. The major downside of guiding discussion in the thread-starter is that it makes an implication that discussion should not stray from the guide.
I'm starting to feel silly even pressing the point, as it's really not a big deal. I'm content to hang back and see what OP decides.
Something I thought was pretty interesting was the interaction between Johnnie and the civilian doctor at the Federal Building. At the end of the conversation the following words slipped out of the doctor.
"Now if they let medical men run things-"
I won't really spoil anything but later on in the book there is a discussion about technocrats and pseudo-scientists running things in the world's history. This line kind of foreshadows that a bit.
But what I really wanted to point out was the arrogance of this statement. The current government system they have in place has produced the best results out of any government system in history, by every metric. And still you have these elitists thinking they can do a better job despite not being elected or having any knowledge or experience about governance.
Just look at whats going on right now. You have unelected officials like Dr. Fauci and the CDC dictating national policy when they have no business doing so. And look at the mess their "leadership" has created.
Man that part hit pretty good especially in light of current events, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring it up.
But, as we'll learn later...
Those disdainful, arrogant intelligentsia lack the one thing that the system is SET UP to select for. There is no danger to the system in letting them have their opinions freely because they will NEVER act on it.
So I've always found it a bit of a bummer that Doogie Howser, Military Psychic is instead just plain Carl, Military Electronics Nerd in the book. It's an interesting concept portrayed pretty well by Neil Patrick Harris. Honestly, though, the idea was rather wasted by the script: Harris' character pretty much exists to give the iconic "It's Afraid!" line at the end of the movie. Anyway:
Heinlein does a great job hooking the reader's attention in these opening chapters, especially considering that much of it consists of lengthy speeches by various teachers and military men laying out their philosophy. The most famous one even made it (with a few changes) into the movie:
There is an interesting contrast and comparison here between Heinlein and Roddenberry('s writers). As much as I love Star Trek, Picard is wrong when he contradicts Colonel DuBois that "power flows from the barrel of a gun." Even Trek seems to concede this with the Hugh debacle: Picard had a chance to destroy the Borg forever, but got cold feet and decided not to go through with it, a mistake that lead to an untold amount of death and suffering at their cybernetic hands throughout the galaxy. Indeed, the writers seemed to concede this point in spectacular fashion with an entire series called Deep Space Nine. Sure, Sisko attempted diplomacy at various points -- but talking is never the answer, not against the implacable Dominion. It took the Federation years of grit, tenacity, blood and sweat to finally throw off their would-be oppressors. DuBois understood this, while Picard railed against it -- and even in Trek's optimistic world, indirectly made the whole galaxy pay for his decision.
I heard Michael Ironside when Mr. DuBois was speaking.
"A soldier accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not."
"The exact words of the book," he said scornfully.
"Bud do you understand it? Do you believe it?"
I guess that's as far as Verhoeven read.
A citizen returns the shopping cart. A civilian does not.
War is just another form of negotiation. Lots of people seem to view it as senseless murder and chaos but there are values in doing battle. The end goal of armed conflict is not to inflict harm on the other side, it is to get them to do what you want. Most commonly it is to get the other side to cede territorial control over to your side but there are many other goals it could be used for. For example, the purpose of the A-Bombs in Japan were not to eliminate military or infrastructure targets, or to simply inflict harm. They were used to force the Japanese to surrender because the US did not want to invade mainland Japan.
The first chapter of the book discusses this a bit. The objectives of the raid were to come in, cause confusion, and damage major infrastructure and utilities. In fact they were told to keep casualties to a minimum. The goal of the attack was to get the skinnies to withdraw their support from the bugs, that's it. The Federation simply used force to get the skinnies to do what they wanted and nothing more.
Does it say in these chapters, or a later one, that the skinnies were supporting the bugs? I didn't recall that from my first reading. In fact I had thought that the book made a point of the bugs being so different from humans in how they thought (perfect communists: a hivemind not afraid to sacrifice 'individuals' for the benefit of the whole) that it would be impossible for them to have peaceful diplomatic relations with a hominid race (though I will confess this might very well be a misconception based on the massive number of 'bug' races that exist in sci-fi.)
Yeah, it gets brought up somewhere later in the book. It's been a while since I first read it and I do remember the part about the bug race being "perfect communists" but I don't remember if they were a true hivemind. I think it was more like certain castes of bugs didn't have any value beyond the collective so they just sacrifice themselves.
The book does point out that the bugs are intelligent, enough to use organized maneuvers and to even build spaceships. So it stands to reason that they could form some kind of alliance with the skinnies.
The World Wars taught us that lesson in the modern age
War has already evolved to destroy the mind of the man holding the gun.
You would know it as wokeism. The communist project from Marx to Gramsci to Marcuse to Critical Race Theory.
I see a bunch of you are rereading now, but I'm a first-time reader, so the sarcastic little "funnies" in this really surprised me.
It was interesting how during chapter 2 you would expect Johnnie to enlist because he is so very sure about his duties and wanting to do it. Especially because they try to discourage them so much.
But then he ends up doing it, even though he just basically goes with the flow. Amusing, I guess?
There was also a tiny little moment that is not important, but I found it very... realistic, I suppose. When his dad tells him they knew he got sick smoking, but they ignored it intentionally. That is such a typical teenage thing; you assume your parents have nooo idea. Instantly humanised both of them so much to me.
I think it's the little things like this that really add a lot of depth to characters. You can get a sense of that by just what they do over the course of a plot but you get a heck of a lot of insight into Johnny just in that one part.
100%. Reading that made me remember the times I'd sneak bottles of beer and thinking I was so clever getting them from the very back of the fridge. As an adult, yeah I definitely got a pass because there's no way you wouldn't miss a bottle mysteriously disappearing 🤣
Kids are tarded even in the future. Comforting.
That chapter also made Johnnie feel very young. I'm not sure how much time passes between the two chapters' events.
The K-9 thing was also disturbing, even though they only discussed it for a little.
After reading the combat sequence at the start I'm absolutely amazed at how the book lacks the heavy patina of zeerust you'd think a sci-fi book from 1959 would have. Though, I think that just gets to how influential this book's been on sci-fi. In that sequence I see the movie "adaptation," I see Halo, I see Aliens, I see all the depictions of future warfare we've had. I forgot just how big Starship Troopers was in this regard and it's a blast getting to experience it again.
So much inspiration for future sci fi. The Aliens drop ship + female pilot. Power armor like the fallout universe. The bugs themselves being the Zerg of Stracraft cannon. Well done Mr Heinlein.
Female pilot seems like a bit of 50s "wokeism" if you want to call it that: the idea that they have better reaction times and make better pilots then men, in an era where it would have been very difficult for a woman to become a pilot. The former is definitely not true -- though I don't know when this was first studied -- and the latter doesn't appear to be supported by evidence with the additional benefit of 60 years' worth of history.
I do agree with the other, more ethereal explanation. It's just good to hear a Woman's voice as you get pitched off to potentially die.
Having just read "A Stranger in a Strange Land'' (also by Heinlen, about the same year) I have to agree. While Stranger has a very retro-futuristic feel to it (language, technology, culture, etc. all very clearly come out of the '60s) Troopers, at least in part due to its influence on modern sci-fi, hardly feels dated at all.
It's been ages since I read this book and it was interesting to re-read the part criticising the idea that "violence never settles anything". This is something I've been thinking about recently - this idea that "violence never settles anything" or "violence is wrong" has seeped into our culture and become engrained. It is so engrained that the media has to report violent protests as "most peaceful" in order to ensure public support of said protests, and all the media needs to do is suggest that other protestors are "violent" to make people turn against them.
It certainly makes false flags very easy to implement. But my thinking goes beyond this - this idea that "violence never settles anything" is greatly beneficial to the elites who seek to control the population. This is because violence is the ultimate leveler. Everyone bleeds, everyone dies. While the elite may have far more resources than most people have, and be able to shield themselves from many negative consequences of their actions, the one thing they can never truly shield themself from is harm itself. So what better way to ensure their own safety then to convince the population that it is somehow morally wrong to use force against them?
It's this mindset that killing is an absolute moral wrong - this mindset that many fans will recognize as a symptom of Batman's severe mental illness, that has pervaded western society. So while criminals get a pass, people that kill in defense of themselves, others and society get lambasted as monsters. This mindset is not logical, it's not healthy for society and it's been turned into a tool to pacify people.
Thankfully in the US it's only partially taken root - you can see the end result of this in the state of the UK and it's self-defense law.
Flores died on the way up.
Great ending to that sequence. And you know they did all that knowing he was going to die.
Indeed...because eventually it could be one of them that need a pickup.
This is one of the most annoying changes to me from the book to the movie. In the movie, Dizzy Flores is a chick that's smitten with Rico from his highschool, who he ignores/rejects in his pursuits of Carmen. They literally just made that change to have one more hot, naked chick in the movie and frankly I find it disrespectful, given Dizzy's fate in the book.
Back in the day when adding hot chicks was how they ruined old content.
First chapter is a classic throw you into the action and see who the protagonist will become tactic. Quite effective. The reader gets overwhelmed (but not too much so) with everything going on and all the things Johnnie has to think about. The cool power armor gets shown off well, and most importantly, so does the attitude of the men of the Mobile Infantry.
Second chapter I like for all the things you expect to happen that don't. The recruiting office does everything it can to discourage young idiots from joining, but they never reject anyone on technicalities. They accept that they're going to get plenty of duds and roll with it.
It makes you care about a guy who didn't even get mentioned until page 13? Flores? Who dies 3 pages later?
Anyhow, Johnnie kills many thousands of "aliens" by various horrific methods, and we're supposed to feel sorry about one guy dying? Well... it worked and we do! Shows some great skill at writing, eh?
It's a wonderful trick to have super-advanced technology... and the main character is bored of it or totally takes it for granted. PK Dick was a master of doing that too.
I don't think the book mentions (directly) where Johnny went to school (though it does mention his heritage at the end), but suffice it to say 'Rico' probably isn't considered foreign there.
Also, civilians in The Federation have nearly identical rights to citizens (the book elaborates on this more later.) The only distinctions between civilians and citizens are citizens have completed the required (2+ year) term of service in the duties assigned (as stated in chapter 2), and are allowed the privilege of voting and serving in government. And as mentioned in the chapter, literally the only thing that can prevent you from serving a term other than your own choice not to do so, is being ruled mentally unfit to comprehend the oath (which some of the jobs mentioned in chapter 2 and throughout the book indicate is a very low bar, not some sort of onerous literacy test.) In fact, I'd imagine if one of the skinnies from chapter 1 showed up at a recruiting station and indicated they wanted to serve, I don't think they could be turned away.
(For others that have read the book before, please note that I am trying to avoid spoiling anything for those that haven't.)
~3,750,000 in 2021 dollars for anybody curious, I'm too lazy to check how it compares to real world infantry.
I want to know more about this curriculum.
This is, I think, one of my favorite 'jokes' in the whole book. And having just read 'Stranger in a Strange Land', Heinlen is fantastic at this when he's not preaching at you (and sometimes even when he is.)
As someone going into this totally blind, I'm glad to see it set in what's essentially an alternate reality of the the "real world" and not just a total fantasy world. Not always the case in sci fi but I think it will make more interesting.
What I take from the first couple chapters is I'm interested to learn more about the history and political makeup of the world. I get the idea we have a dysfunctional mess of a world shrouded with a thin layer of utopia. The first chapter you've got an army going in to do what's essentially an intimidation raid but in the second back in time a bit it's generally happy and "normal." Except maybe the whole military enlistment thing, as apparently they have so many people wanting to enlist, they aren't allowed to turn them down, but they go as far as trying to talk them out of it. It almost comes off as enlistment in the military is a virtue signal.
I'm not sure what gives you the idea that The Federation is a dystopia. I think The Federation of Starship Troopers has some things in common with that of Star Trek, in that Earth itself is peaceful and prosperous, and most of the interesting stuff happens out on the frontier. As Johnny's father says when he's trying to discourage his enlistment:
They don't do much fighting or have much need for an active military, and what conflicts there are seem to be relatively minor incursions of the type we see in chapter 1. So I think you're right that enlistment in service (not the military, per-se, as lots of the jobs they list in ch. 2 and throughout the book are non-military in nature) is used as a social/virtue signal in many cases.
(For others that have read the book before, please note that I am trying to avoid spoiling anything for those that haven't.)
I think it's actually statements like that from Johnny's father that give me the idea. It's almost too perfect with things like "outgrown wars." I guess I get the feeling that combined with the knowledge of the raid in the first chapter that the government has put up a facade.
Perhaps I'm totally off base, I do think getting some context to the first chapter will help. But hey, thinking about it at this point being blind to the rest of the book is part of it for me...
Remember when this book was written. This was right after WWII. A lot of people thought that we'd never do something like that again. A war to end all wars.
I'd like to hear your re-evaluation of that final point of yours after you've finished the book, because I can't be sure I wouldn't accidentally spoil things for you if we talked about it.
I think pose whatever questions you have to get things started is a good idea. Heading to the gym with this loaded as an audiobook so I'll be back to the thread
Done!
Figure I'd play a bit of Devil's Advocate here:
Get a whiff that this is a multi-ethnic and to an extent multi-cultural (due to the references to various religions practiced by the soldiers) society that makes those things secondary to the higher loyalty to the Terran Federation. Is this the fabled high-functioning globo-homo society we've been promised but hasn't been delivered?
If so it's interesting to see this come out about the same time as Star Trek explores that same theme and right around the time the West starts to go down the globo-homo path.
The Federation sounds serviceable as citizen with responsibility runs things, but image powerful civilian entities lobbying some politicians to do their biddings, how would that be prevented or minimized? How would that be different then what we have now?
The book covers that later, and I don't want to spoil too much, but effectively Citizens self select for an attribute that minimizes the risk from that (as to serve in government you must also be a citizen.)
That's the entire basis for the government. That only those who are willing to put the needs of humanity ahead of their personal needs are allowed to serve in the government..
It's not perfect but the idea is that the type of people to accept bribes to damage society would be weeded out before they would be eligible to run for office.
For the next chapter, this will save you a bit of time: Sir Arthur Currie Not a spoiler! 😇 Just a Canadian war hero.
I think it can go both ways. You've had a decent response so far, so I don't think it will be necessary to guide discussion. As a bystander, I am interested in hearing what your thoughts are, so maybe you should just put them in a comment replying to yourself? If you add on to your main post, I only ask you keep it formatted to aid readability (you already are doing this).
There's several critical moments in every group of chapters we'll be discussing, however? Those may differ greatly from person to person, I suspect.
Having some 'talking ideas' could prove useful though, it's up to the OP.
Yes, and it would suck to have a critical point glossed over because no one felt like volunteering their thoughts. The major downside of guiding discussion in the thread-starter is that it makes an implication that discussion should not stray from the guide.
I'm starting to feel silly even pressing the point, as it's really not a big deal. I'm content to hang back and see what OP decides.