Yahweh was a national god. After the life of Jesus, he was conflated with the universal God:
Yahweh[a] was an ancient Levantine deity, and national god of the Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah.[4] Though no consensus exists regarding the deity's origins,[5] scholars generally contend that Yahweh is associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman,[6] and later with Canaan. The origins of his worship reach at least to the early Iron Age, and likely to the Late Bronze Age, if not somewhat earlier.[7]
In the oldest biblical literature, he possesses attributes typically ascribed to weather and war deities, fructifying the land and leading the heavenly army against Israel's enemies.[8] The early Israelites were polytheistic and worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[9]
[wiki for Yahweh]
The term demiurge derives from the Latinized form of the Greek term dēmiourgos, δημιουργός, literally "public or skilled worker".[note 20] This figure is also called "Yaldabaoth",[73] Samael (Aramaic: sæmʻa-ʼel, "blind god"), or "Saklas" (Syriac: sækla, "the foolish one"), who is sometimes ignorant of the superior god, and sometimes opposed to it; thus in the latter case he is correspondingly malevolent. Other names or identifications are Ahriman, El, Satan, and Yahweh.
Lol, can’t be ruled out. Also, maybe the distinction between “spiritual being” and “alien advanced enough to visit earth” isn’t as hard as we might think at first glance
Likely? I think definitely - he liked to say he moved to Sri Lanka for the culture but we all know why he really went there. It's a shame it makes reading his books feel dirty
Of that collection, I’m especially fond of the Gospel of Thomas. Seems like a distillation of (H/h)is message to us without all the magisterium built up around it later by men. I copied and pasted it as a thread the other day:
Highly relavent to the conversation is also the exact nature of the jewish sect, the Essenes. Debatably, they were a proto-Christian jewish-gnostic messianic sect, who debatably produced the cultural milieu in which Christ was brought up, but most certainly did so for John the Baptist, who is referred to as Jesus’ cousin, indicating the increased potential for similar early influences.
But your comment alluded to the idea that the god of this earth was the war god and those other names. (I could get there to a point, this plane being the devils arena and the fallen thinking themselves gods) Are you saying Jesus is some gnostic guy? Maybe I'm misreading and getting hyper?
Archeo-anthropological research indicates that, in its earliest forms, israelite worship of Yahweh was as part of a pantheon, where Yahweh was not regarded as the supreme universal God, but instead as the National, War-God, of one specific people, “yahweh sabaoth”. [edit: here is a good video to introduce that notion]
Other research, such as that done on the Essenes, supports the claim that Jesus could have been raised in that sect’s interpretation of judaism, which by many indications was a more “gnostic” interpretation of judaism than we see elsewhere. “Gnostic” in this case meaning a system of spiritual insight based on self-directed practices (focused and prolonged meditation/prayer, ritual washing, etc) as opposed to the more common image of a religion as a top-down hierarchy of edicts/canon/magesteria and so on. They are also associated with far stronger rejection of the physical, or as you mention, the part of the world which satan is the prince of.
So I’m saying two things, the first a response to the OP’s title question, and the second an explanation for “Christians” believing this or atleast considering it.
If this theory were correct, Jesus would be a liar.
I don't read these gnostic ideas in the tanahk and I try to read what Jesus read as well as the other inspired works of God. (I can glean what He read by what He said, just like I can with authors like Lewis) Doesn't it take a greater jump to imagine the Lord's mind instead of reading what He actually wishes to share with you, the pieces of His mind I mean as well as His nature.
Anything can be misunderstood if you don't know the person behind the words.
To be honest, this idea goes against the nature of who He is and I find it disappointing, even as a thought experiment it does a disservice to Him.
Check that video I edited into the first paragraph for an idea of the archeological evidence.
I don’t really see how “if this theory were correct, Jesus would be a liar”? - like you point out, so much is up to interpretation. Surely an interpretation of the Old Testament exists in which this is the case and Jesus is still Jesus. In fact, that is demonstrated by the many sects of Gnostic Christians who the Roman Catholic Church had to eradicate. Have you ever heard of the Cathars?
I like archealogy so I might see the video, thanks.
I actually think it's dangerous to misinterpret God and the bible, and because I'm a very 'something', I've fretted diligently with the Lord for as long as I've been conscious about the nature of Him and me and the world.
God either is or isn't, there is no interpretation and if anyone has wonders and anything, He is taking questions.
It's not like we have any reliable, original, verbatim documentation of anything Jesus ever said, all we have are conflicting accounts which paraphrase what he allegedly claimed.
I'm surprised that a Christian hasn't answered this yet, but God in the Old Testament picked Abraham to build a chosen nation to relay his message to the rest of the world. The Jews were to prepare the way for the coming of the Savior through the sacrificial system. This failed and demonstrated once for all that human effort is insufficient to follow God.
The way the Jews are is because they were given this task, failed, and rejected God. In other words, their negative attributes are a consequence of the mission given to them, not inherent traits from the beginning. Likely any other person picked besides Abraham would've resulted in the same or worse.
Many people hold that the Jewish religion was originally polytheistic because the Old Testament refers to other gods. However, on reading the actual texts it becomes clear that the Bible refers to "other gods" in the sense that we refer to the Greek gods - in other words, imaginary concepts. See for instance, Isaiah 44:
All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together.
The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it. Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!” And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”
Not only did God demonstrate that even a hand picked people couldn't fulfill the law through their own effort, He showed His greatest good could be accomplished through the hard-hearted, dare I say evil, people they became.
Don't discount idol worship as an abstraction. It's the opposite. Evil spiritual beings exist and idol crafting was a means to give them a mouthpiece to deal with them. No one thought the carved wood was literally a god, but it was an avenue for power. The idols are fewer today, but corporate and industrial in scale.
Don't discount idol worship as an abstraction. It's the opposite. Evil spiritual beings exist and idol crafting was a means to give them a mouthpiece to deal with them. No one thought the carved wood was literally a god, but it was an avenue for power. The idols are fewer today, but corporate and industrial in scale.
100% agree, the idols then and now are vectors of demonic power.
However, on reading the actual texts it becomes clear that the Bible refers to "other gods" in the sense that we refer to the Greek gods - in other words, imaginary concepts.
The faithful Jews accepted Jesus, Gentile and Jew joined to form the early Church.
The only jews you see now are those who have rejected God. And added 2,000 of nonsensical and occasionally absolutely vile scribblings and oral tradition to their beliefs (but for a few tiny splinter groups who reject or at least do not highly value anything new).
People think of them as being the Jews of old following the old faith, but really they've added as much as the mormons or the muslims have. It's a new faith.
They seem like jerks to me
Unless you meant the Jews as depicted in the Bible?
That was Satan "pranking" Job and God had sound reasoning for allowing it, as the lessons Job learned from his suffering have endured for thousands of years to speak to billions of people.
The real chosen people were the Persians who gave the world Zoroastrianism, which eventually became Gnosticism. And the Magi were relaying the lost knowledge of the Atlanteans.
You have it the wrong way around. The ancient Jewish people made up YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, god. Just like any other early civilization made up their own god(s), and it was always on their side, or tried to explain some yet unknown natural phenomena.
The idea that they are chosen as special is so erroneous its fucking ridiculous. THe Jews were 'chosen' to keep the knowledge of Ancient Aliens. THe Sanctum Sanctorum was the two way radio to the mothership. THEY DO NOT EVEN TRY TO HIDE IT IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK - https://koshertorah.com/about-the-rav.html
Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok, in his teachings and writings, explores the connections between extraterrestrial life, as depicted in modern legends about aliens and UFOs, and the ancient legends about angels and demons. In his book "Aliens, Angels and Demons: Extraterrestrial Life in Judaism/Kabbalah and its Relevance for Modern Times," he delves into the teachings of the Bible, Judaism, and Kabbalah to investigate these connections¹².
He suggests that what we consider legends might actually be something far greater and very real, potentially being different interpretations of the same phenomena. The book takes readers on a journey from the secret teachings about Inner Earth and Pre-Adamic civilized humanity to the many extraterrestrial races in outer space, their relationship to us, and our collective human future in what he refers to as dawning messianic times¹².
It's a fascinating perspective that combines ancient religious texts with contemporary accounts of extraterrestrial encounters, aiming to provide a broader understanding of these mysterious beings and their relevance to humanity¹².
Some Jew just wrote, "we're the chosen ones. Yep, God said that alright" somewhere and lemmings started believing it.
As if. Some Greek or maybe a Persian said it and they went "hey that's a good idea yoink we're the chosen ones now"
Is this a troll question or an actual one?
Yahweh was a national god. After the life of Jesus, he was conflated with the universal God:
[wiki for Yahweh]
[wiki for gnosticism]
Atleast, that’s one theory.
Yahweh was a alien
Lol, can’t be ruled out. Also, maybe the distinction between “spiritual being” and “alien advanced enough to visit earth” isn’t as hard as we might think at first glance
Childhood's End ;)
That’s one (terrifying) possibility. (Did you know Clarke was likely a pedo? Wonder where/who he got his ideas from…)
Have you ever come across the Law of One or hidden hand material? I think they present a more positive potential reality
Likely? I think definitely - he liked to say he moved to Sri Lanka for the culture but we all know why he really went there. It's a shame it makes reading his books feel dirty
That's some story, where does it come from?
Some of the earliest extant Christian writing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library
Of that collection, I’m especially fond of the Gospel of Thomas. Seems like a distillation of (H/h)is message to us without all the magisterium built up around it later by men. I copied and pasted it as a thread the other day:
https://communities.win/c/Manna/p/17teNpu1o2/the-gospel-of-thomas/c
Highly relavent to the conversation is also the exact nature of the jewish sect, the Essenes. Debatably, they were a proto-Christian jewish-gnostic messianic sect, who debatably produced the cultural milieu in which Christ was brought up, but most certainly did so for John the Baptist, who is referred to as Jesus’ cousin, indicating the increased potential for similar early influences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
But your comment alluded to the idea that the god of this earth was the war god and those other names. (I could get there to a point, this plane being the devils arena and the fallen thinking themselves gods) Are you saying Jesus is some gnostic guy? Maybe I'm misreading and getting hyper?
Archeo-anthropological research indicates that, in its earliest forms, israelite worship of Yahweh was as part of a pantheon, where Yahweh was not regarded as the supreme universal God, but instead as the National, War-God, of one specific people, “yahweh sabaoth”. [edit: here is a good video to introduce that notion]
Other research, such as that done on the Essenes, supports the claim that Jesus could have been raised in that sect’s interpretation of judaism, which by many indications was a more “gnostic” interpretation of judaism than we see elsewhere. “Gnostic” in this case meaning a system of spiritual insight based on self-directed practices (focused and prolonged meditation/prayer, ritual washing, etc) as opposed to the more common image of a religion as a top-down hierarchy of edicts/canon/magesteria and so on. They are also associated with far stronger rejection of the physical, or as you mention, the part of the world which satan is the prince of.
So I’m saying two things, the first a response to the OP’s title question, and the second an explanation for “Christians” believing this or atleast considering it.
If this theory were correct, Jesus would be a liar.
I don't read these gnostic ideas in the tanahk and I try to read what Jesus read as well as the other inspired works of God. (I can glean what He read by what He said, just like I can with authors like Lewis) Doesn't it take a greater jump to imagine the Lord's mind instead of reading what He actually wishes to share with you, the pieces of His mind I mean as well as His nature.
Anything can be misunderstood if you don't know the person behind the words.
To be honest, this idea goes against the nature of who He is and I find it disappointing, even as a thought experiment it does a disservice to Him.
Check that video I edited into the first paragraph for an idea of the archeological evidence.
I don’t really see how “if this theory were correct, Jesus would be a liar”? - like you point out, so much is up to interpretation. Surely an interpretation of the Old Testament exists in which this is the case and Jesus is still Jesus. In fact, that is demonstrated by the many sects of Gnostic Christians who the Roman Catholic Church had to eradicate. Have you ever heard of the Cathars?
I like archealogy so I might see the video, thanks. I actually think it's dangerous to misinterpret God and the bible, and because I'm a very 'something', I've fretted diligently with the Lord for as long as I've been conscious about the nature of Him and me and the world.
God either is or isn't, there is no interpretation and if anyone has wonders and anything, He is taking questions.
Edit: I've heard of the Cathars
It's not like we have any reliable, original, verbatim documentation of anything Jesus ever said, all we have are conflicting accounts which paraphrase what he allegedly claimed.
For me, I had to decide that either God is who He says He is or He's a total lunatic and liar to boot.
I'm surprised that a Christian hasn't answered this yet, but God in the Old Testament picked Abraham to build a chosen nation to relay his message to the rest of the world. The Jews were to prepare the way for the coming of the Savior through the sacrificial system. This failed and demonstrated once for all that human effort is insufficient to follow God.
The way the Jews are is because they were given this task, failed, and rejected God. In other words, their negative attributes are a consequence of the mission given to them, not inherent traits from the beginning. Likely any other person picked besides Abraham would've resulted in the same or worse.
Many people hold that the Jewish religion was originally polytheistic because the Old Testament refers to other gods. However, on reading the actual texts it becomes clear that the Bible refers to "other gods" in the sense that we refer to the Greek gods - in other words, imaginary concepts. See for instance, Isaiah 44:
Not only did God demonstrate that even a hand picked people couldn't fulfill the law through their own effort, He showed His greatest good could be accomplished through the hard-hearted, dare I say evil, people they became.
Don't discount idol worship as an abstraction. It's the opposite. Evil spiritual beings exist and idol crafting was a means to give them a mouthpiece to deal with them. No one thought the carved wood was literally a god, but it was an avenue for power. The idols are fewer today, but corporate and industrial in scale.
100% agree, the idols then and now are vectors of demonic power.
https://www.logos.com/grow/who-are-elohim/
Interesting article on the subject, by Michael Heiser
Modern Jews?
The faithful Jews accepted Jesus, Gentile and Jew joined to form the early Church.
The only jews you see now are those who have rejected God. And added 2,000 of nonsensical and occasionally absolutely vile scribblings and oral tradition to their beliefs (but for a few tiny splinter groups who reject or at least do not highly value anything new).
People think of them as being the Jews of old following the old faith, but really they've added as much as the mormons or the muslims have. It's a new faith.
Unless you meant the Jews as depicted in the Bible?
They were the first to disturb His eons-long slumber, under the Saharan sands.
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Yahweh Urusalim wgah'nagl fhtagn."
Old Testament God was kinda a prankster and rather hurtful practical joker at times.
How so and in what way?
Book of Job.
That was Satan "pranking" Job and God had sound reasoning for allowing it, as the lessons Job learned from his suffering have endured for thousands of years to speak to billions of people.
That's because he was an Alien. Look into Sumerian Myths
Elaborate you vile fiend!
Read the torah and the old testament as supplementary material. Yahweh (Moloch) was a warmongering, sadistic prick with self-confidence issues.
The real chosen people were the Persians who gave the world Zoroastrianism, which eventually became Gnosticism. And the Magi were relaying the lost knowledge of the Atlanteans.
You have it the wrong way around. The ancient Jewish people made up YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, god. Just like any other early civilization made up their own god(s), and it was always on their side, or tried to explain some yet unknown natural phenomena.
The idea that they are chosen as special is so erroneous its fucking ridiculous. THe Jews were 'chosen' to keep the knowledge of Ancient Aliens. THe Sanctum Sanctorum was the two way radio to the mothership. THEY DO NOT EVEN TRY TO HIDE IT IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK - https://koshertorah.com/about-the-rav.html
Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok, in his teachings and writings, explores the connections between extraterrestrial life, as depicted in modern legends about aliens and UFOs, and the ancient legends about angels and demons. In his book "Aliens, Angels and Demons: Extraterrestrial Life in Judaism/Kabbalah and its Relevance for Modern Times," he delves into the teachings of the Bible, Judaism, and Kabbalah to investigate these connections¹².
He suggests that what we consider legends might actually be something far greater and very real, potentially being different interpretations of the same phenomena. The book takes readers on a journey from the secret teachings about Inner Earth and Pre-Adamic civilized humanity to the many extraterrestrial races in outer space, their relationship to us, and our collective human future in what he refers to as dawning messianic times¹².
It's a fascinating perspective that combines ancient religious texts with contemporary accounts of extraterrestrial encounters, aiming to provide a broader understanding of these mysterious beings and their relevance to humanity¹².
Source: Conversation with Copilot, 29/07/2024 (1) Aliens, Angels and Demons: Extraterrestrial Life in Judaism/Kabbalah .... https://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Angels-Demons-Extraterrestrial-Relevance/dp/0692881980. (2) Aliens, Angels, & Demons: Extraterrestrial Life in Judaism/Kabbalah .... https://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Angels-Demons-Extraterrestrial-Relevance/dp/B08PJQ387J. (3) Aliens, Angels and Demons - Google Books. https://books.google.com/books/about/Aliens_Angels_and_Demons.html?id=1joztAEACAAJ. (4) Aliens, Angels & Demons - Seforim Center. https://seforimcenter.com/Aliens,-Angels--Demons--Extraterrestrial-Life-in-Judaism/Kabbalah-HaRav-Ariel-Bar-Tzadok__p-11557.aspx. (5) Aliens, Angels and Demons: Extraterrestrial Life in Jud…. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36569317-aliens-angels-and-demons.
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Bears live in woods, and sharks live in water... you're going into their territory, not the other way around. Your analogy is bad.