What part of "Unironically drawn in by the lure of evil to think they can do good" was misunderstood? You're still thinking that this evil, if shackled or limited enough, will somehow produce something good.
Voluntaryism is the only way to go, which would not fall under the category of a government (which imposes itself upon people regardless of consent), but of free and voluntary association or organisation. Everything else is one flavour or another of "The Ends Justify The Means" or "For The Greater Good". Or some level of naivety that this time, despite literally every other time, it will turn out differently and the government will miraculously be good for virtually no reason at all.
And make no mistake, I understand that this isn't something that will happen. Certainly not in my lifetime at least. But the reality is that we will never get to "vote" on limiting the government. You will never get to choose how much of your income is taken, what guns you can have, whether or not you can just sell things you made. The only political choice you will ever have in your life is whether you submit to or reject authority on the individual level in everyday situations. That will sometimes risk consequences. Sometimes it won't. But that's the only real choice you ultimately have.
Any more strawmen of anarchy you wanna get out? Maybe a classic "without government, who would build the roads"?
Every single day you reject authority. Every single day you take care of yourself and your own problems, and if the only thing stopping you from murder is government, then you're an objectively terrible person. But every single day you take care of your problems, and you balk at the idea of being expected to take care of yourself like you already do.
But hey, what's stopping you from being murdered now? Not what happens afterwards, what is actively preventing you from being killed? Government and law is purely reactive and not preventative. Drugs, "terror", "misinformation", doesn't matter what the government wages war on, it always loses their preventative efforts.
PS, you can still live in a voluntaryist organisation/group/collective/whatever label you want. You can still have private security if you want to pay for it. You just don't get to steal the labour of others to pay for it instead. Anarchy =/= chaos, but statists cannot comprehend that.
It's really utopian as well. "If we just have the right leader, with the right politics, with the right policies, with the right successors, surely this will all work out forever!".
Nothing will make you sound more insane than knowing a handful of things the government has openly admitted to, never faced consequences for, and therefore proceed to condemn government for. And it literally doesn't matter what government. They're all guilty of something like this.
I'm an OG GGer and a KiA2 poster, I naturally lean pessimistic. You're bizarrely optimistic about your little wonderland.
Always assume the negative in populations. Not the worst, but negative. Look to see where your worldview falls apart, when it is introduced to eight billion people, five-six billion+ of which have two-digit IQs by northwestern standards of IQ.
Now do that with your worldview. America is currently run by pedophiles. Everyone fucking knows it, and nothing is being done about it. And this is specifically the result of "small and limited government". It failed, just like all government fails. I'm not promising utopia, that's what statists do: lie about providing a service for your benefit. I'm part of the group saying "It's all lies, and you're beyond retarded for believing it".
I'm an OG GGer and a KiA2 poster
Okay, and? That has nothing to do with anything. Stop trying to cred-post, because it ultimately undermines that very effort.
Strawmen and ignorance of shills for hire aside, is it not a mistake (both technically and tactically) to link anarchism with voluntaryism? Yes they are necessarily related movements but to my understanding, voluntaryists are for government, just not the state as we know it. They propose voluntary government associations, of which there could be many in parallel. You'd pay taxes to who you choose to pay taxes to.
You could say the same result would happen under anarcho-capitalism, but that's a broader ideal that doesn't really define a "solution" beyond property rights. Voluntaryism is one solution.
Well this is where we get into a more semantical argument. Is a voluntary association a government? It technically doesn't govern or rule over you for it's entirely voluntary. That's the foundation of it.
You'd pay taxes to who you choose to pay taxes to.
Again, a semantics argument. It wouldn't be taxes at that point, it would be a bill for it's entirely your choice to engage in getting certain services. I'm not being "taxed" when I go fill up my car, I'm paying for the goods and services I have asked for. And really, this mentality is of treating payment and taxes the same is ultimately what leads to ideas like "The Social Contract" that nobody ever agreed to but we are for some reason beholden to.
I have a counter question: why are you expecting an ideology based around the opposition of forced central planning to provide a central planning solution?
The answer is, like all other problems, that you fix your problems yourself. Now, that isn't a nice flowery utopian answer, but that's the thing most people don't understand about anarchy/anarchist: We're not promising utopia like every other naive ideology out there.
See, the implication here is that a power vacuum would be filled by warlords, but there's just one problem with that: the warlords are already in power. So it can just as easily be turned back to you: what does a government do to prevent tyranny? And the answer is simple: it embraces it.
The only ones ignoring evil existing is statists who continually admit people can be unbelievably evil to turn around and ignore that the government is made up of those very same people with untouchable power.
You will never get to choose how much of your income is taken, what guns you can have, whether or not you can just sell things you made. The only political choice you will ever have in your life is whether you submit to or reject authority. And it's clear you've chosen to submit.
Just don't think about all the ways human nature will screw things over and they'll work perfectly!
The only one who ignores human nature are statists that ignore their government being made up of those same fallible people. But sure, the "solution" to corruption is to continue on with the system and aim for the most utopian bullshit you could imagine. "If we just voooooote the right people in, it will all turn out fine! Doesn't matter that it hasn't happened yet, just keep on the status quo!"
So you're full on anarcho-capitalist? That's pointless. People are social and so they'll maker social rules to live with their peers, even inside an organization. There will always be government of some sort.
People are social and so they'll maker social rules to live with their peers, even inside an organization
As they should have the freedom to do. Shockingly though, none of that justifies forcing any of that on anyone for any reason.
This isn't the "own" you might think it is. And no, voluntary organisation is not a government.
You wanna know something that is pointless though? Knowing, admitting and condemning that the elite are overwhelming some of the most evil people on the planet, filled with war criminals, pedophiles, abusers and every other type of scum out there, and then falling back into supporting that very system that empowered those people to get away with their injustices. You accept that the elite are evil, and when faced with what little free will you have left, you choose not to avoid picking evil, but explicitly go out of your way to pick evil of your flavour and then condemn others that want to stop picking evil.
Every single day you have anarchist interactions. Every single day you do things without government. Every single day you take care of yourself. You don't need the government there to hold your hand. You're an adult, not a toddler.
You accept that the elite are evil, and when faced with what little free will you have left, you choose not to avoid picking evil, but explicitly go out of your way to pick evil of your flavour and then condemn others that want to stop picking evil.
You attribute many things to me that I haven't said. My point is that government will always be created if it doesn't exist. There will always be a government.
Define government and then give the difference between a government and an organisation.
There will always be organisation and collaboration. There does not need to be an entity that forces itself upon people without their consent, as it steals the fruits of their labour (taxes) to keep itself alive.
I haven't said
You don't have to. Statists are predictable, namely because I was in your shoes once and because you refuse to listen to answers that anarchists give any time any of these questions are asked. People like you love to go on and on about "well what about this issue, anarchists don't talk about this", when it's one of the main points that gets spoken about for nearly a century at this point.
There are two main statist groups. The naive, who believe they can harness the evil for good, and the nihilistic, the ones that give up because "it will always happen". Society trends towards authoritarianism as time goes on, gonna go and advocate for that in your cowardly defeatism? Or do you think that maybe striving for freedom is the moral choice?
What part of "Unironically drawn in by the lure of evil to think they can do good" was misunderstood? You're still thinking that this evil, if shackled or limited enough, will somehow produce something good.
Voluntaryism is the only way to go, which would not fall under the category of a government (which imposes itself upon people regardless of consent), but of free and voluntary association or organisation. Everything else is one flavour or another of "The Ends Justify The Means" or "For The Greater Good". Or some level of naivety that this time, despite literally every other time, it will turn out differently and the government will miraculously be good for virtually no reason at all.
And make no mistake, I understand that this isn't something that will happen. Certainly not in my lifetime at least. But the reality is that we will never get to "vote" on limiting the government. You will never get to choose how much of your income is taken, what guns you can have, whether or not you can just sell things you made. The only political choice you will ever have in your life is whether you submit to or reject authority on the individual level in everyday situations. That will sometimes risk consequences. Sometimes it won't. But that's the only real choice you ultimately have.
Anarchism is hardly better that governance.
"Can I kill Joe?"
"Yeah, don't want to restrict your rights. His family might come after you though."
"If I'm rich enough, can I just kill Joe and his entire extended family, then?"
"Oh yes, of course. Murder is cheap and commonplace, after all, it's an easy skill to acquire, and no laws against it."
Any more strawmen of anarchy you wanna get out? Maybe a classic "without government, who would build the roads"?
Every single day you reject authority. Every single day you take care of yourself and your own problems, and if the only thing stopping you from murder is government, then you're an objectively terrible person. But every single day you take care of your problems, and you balk at the idea of being expected to take care of yourself like you already do.
But hey, what's stopping you from being murdered now? Not what happens afterwards, what is actively preventing you from being killed? Government and law is purely reactive and not preventative. Drugs, "terror", "misinformation", doesn't matter what the government wages war on, it always loses their preventative efforts.
PS, you can still live in a voluntaryist organisation/group/collective/whatever label you want. You can still have private security if you want to pay for it. You just don't get to steal the labour of others to pay for it instead. Anarchy =/= chaos, but statists cannot comprehend that.
Most on this board are hardcore collectivists. Therefore, they can't understand the true nature of the State. "If only we had the right leader!"
It's really utopian as well. "If we just have the right leader, with the right politics, with the right policies, with the right successors, surely this will all work out forever!".
Nothing will make you sound more insane than knowing a handful of things the government has openly admitted to, never faced consequences for, and therefore proceed to condemn government for. And it literally doesn't matter what government. They're all guilty of something like this.
Nice strawman.
More like, "Well, we're stuck having a leader, so we might as well try to get one that at least isn't promising to do things that I don't want."
I'm an OG GGer and a KiA2 poster, I naturally lean pessimistic. You're bizarrely optimistic about your little wonderland.
Always assume the negative in populations. Not the worst, but negative. Look to see where your worldview falls apart, when it is introduced to eight billion people, five-six billion+ of which have two-digit IQs by northwestern standards of IQ.
Now do that with your worldview. America is currently run by pedophiles. Everyone fucking knows it, and nothing is being done about it. And this is specifically the result of "small and limited government". It failed, just like all government fails. I'm not promising utopia, that's what statists do: lie about providing a service for your benefit. I'm part of the group saying "It's all lies, and you're beyond retarded for believing it".
Okay, and? That has nothing to do with anything. Stop trying to cred-post, because it ultimately undermines that very effort.
Strawmen and ignorance of shills for hire aside, is it not a mistake (both technically and tactically) to link anarchism with voluntaryism? Yes they are necessarily related movements but to my understanding, voluntaryists are for government, just not the state as we know it. They propose voluntary government associations, of which there could be many in parallel. You'd pay taxes to who you choose to pay taxes to.
You could say the same result would happen under anarcho-capitalism, but that's a broader ideal that doesn't really define a "solution" beyond property rights. Voluntaryism is one solution.
Well this is where we get into a more semantical argument. Is a voluntary association a government? It technically doesn't govern or rule over you for it's entirely voluntary. That's the foundation of it.
Again, a semantics argument. It wouldn't be taxes at that point, it would be a bill for it's entirely your choice to engage in getting certain services. I'm not being "taxed" when I go fill up my car, I'm paying for the goods and services I have asked for. And really, this mentality is of treating payment and taxes the same is ultimately what leads to ideas like "The Social Contract" that nobody ever agreed to but we are for some reason beholden to.
I have a counter question: why are you expecting an ideology based around the opposition of forced central planning to provide a central planning solution?
The answer is, like all other problems, that you fix your problems yourself. Now, that isn't a nice flowery utopian answer, but that's the thing most people don't understand about anarchy/anarchist: We're not promising utopia like every other naive ideology out there.
See, the implication here is that a power vacuum would be filled by warlords, but there's just one problem with that: the warlords are already in power. So it can just as easily be turned back to you: what does a government do to prevent tyranny? And the answer is simple: it embraces it.
The only ones ignoring evil existing is statists who continually admit people can be unbelievably evil to turn around and ignore that the government is made up of those very same people with untouchable power.
You will never get to choose how much of your income is taken, what guns you can have, whether or not you can just sell things you made. The only political choice you will ever have in your life is whether you submit to or reject authority. And it's clear you've chosen to submit.
Anarchism is to Individualism what Socialism is to Collectivism.
Just don't think about all the ways human nature will screw things over and they'll work perfectly!
The only one who ignores human nature are statists that ignore their government being made up of those same fallible people. But sure, the "solution" to corruption is to continue on with the system and aim for the most utopian bullshit you could imagine. "If we just voooooote the right people in, it will all turn out fine! Doesn't matter that it hasn't happened yet, just keep on the status quo!"
So you're full on anarcho-capitalist? That's pointless. People are social and so they'll maker social rules to live with their peers, even inside an organization. There will always be government of some sort.
As they should have the freedom to do. Shockingly though, none of that justifies forcing any of that on anyone for any reason.
This isn't the "own" you might think it is. And no, voluntary organisation is not a government.
You wanna know something that is pointless though? Knowing, admitting and condemning that the elite are overwhelming some of the most evil people on the planet, filled with war criminals, pedophiles, abusers and every other type of scum out there, and then falling back into supporting that very system that empowered those people to get away with their injustices. You accept that the elite are evil, and when faced with what little free will you have left, you choose not to avoid picking evil, but explicitly go out of your way to pick evil of your flavour and then condemn others that want to stop picking evil.
Every single day you have anarchist interactions. Every single day you do things without government. Every single day you take care of yourself. You don't need the government there to hold your hand. You're an adult, not a toddler.
You attribute many things to me that I haven't said. My point is that government will always be created if it doesn't exist. There will always be a government.
Define government and then give the difference between a government and an organisation.
There will always be organisation and collaboration. There does not need to be an entity that forces itself upon people without their consent, as it steals the fruits of their labour (taxes) to keep itself alive.
You don't have to. Statists are predictable, namely because I was in your shoes once and because you refuse to listen to answers that anarchists give any time any of these questions are asked. People like you love to go on and on about "well what about this issue, anarchists don't talk about this", when it's one of the main points that gets spoken about for nearly a century at this point.
There are two main statist groups. The naive, who believe they can harness the evil for good, and the nihilistic, the ones that give up because "it will always happen". Society trends towards authoritarianism as time goes on, gonna go and advocate for that in your cowardly defeatism? Or do you think that maybe striving for freedom is the moral choice?