That whole scene. When the dad showed up, I had to stop for a second and think back to the man who was introduced at the beginning. I thought about the logistics of it, how the dad is older and all, but also the fact that he went through a 180 degree change in how he was known and how he is now.
I think it's a system that could work. But the problem is getting there. You don't get there without a collapse of the present system. To the point where even the constitution isn't seen as worth preserving.
The description of how the federation came about seems plausible, especially in light of the recent withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Veterans, people who know how to execute violence, fed up with lawlessness just create law unto themselves. And then it spreads. I could see it happening, but it likely won't be that simple
Will there be a final post to submit thoughts on the book as a whole? I like the chapter by chapter analysis, but I also think it would be nice to allow everyone to collectively summarize their thoughts on the entire story and philosophy of the book.
Perhaps in one week? Personally, it takes me anywhere between 3-16 days to fully digest a book - no clue where other people stand on digestion. While I am not an actual participant this time, I'm offering speculation.
Also, by having a "wrap-up" thread, you could invite people who are familiar with the book that did not feel like rereading it. Those people would then be able to share their thoughts without worrying about spoilers. Granted, they could just do that in this thread, but this thread is specifically for the final chapters.
Then again, from a logistics standpoint, some people prefer physical books. I would feel kind of iffy about picking a thing to read where everyone is forced to consume it in one single format, ideally I would go with something that can be accessed as print, digital and even audio.
But that's just me. If this gets voted, it is what the people have chosen for us.
Since this is a type of fanfiction, I have to ask: does it really make an effort at tackling the subject? It's certainly evocative of some interesting philosophical matters, based on your summary. But if it's as you say, merely some drivel, wouldn't it be more to the point to present the argument directly (as you've basically done here)?
I'll go ahead and share my immediate thoughts (based on your summary). If possible, I could see a sort of utopia coming from this for everyone - but only if the people choosing life over simulation are free from the gentle tyranny of this AI. In such an altered scenario, you've basically made a gate to "heaven" and everyone who wants to give up will do so. Once all such people have surrendered, you would be left with a much different world that I think the remainders may be happier with.
Whole lot easier than finagling penal colonies and wasting resources on our present civil strifes.
That last chapter felt like it could have been three chapters (or two and an epilogue), it even had a couple good points to make breaks. That said I really enjoyed getting a look at a larger scale military operation (though still small enough that we could get an interesting play-by-play from Johnny, instead of an after-action summary.)
I think Heinlen might be a little optimistic about the performance of the Federation's form of government, but I can't see how it would be any worse than what we have now.
I'm not sure I have any additional thoughts on the lecture chapter I hadn't covered previously, but I certainly liked the bits at the end as Johnny was getting out of OCS (the discussion with the commandant, the superstition and tradition around the pips, the types of characters going through OCS.)
Talks about evolution shows up twice: that of planets (and humans) in 11 and the evolution of governments in 12. Maybe later, just finished those two so far.
When talking about how planets with little hardship fail to develop tough species, is Heinlein really talking about humanity? In our history, the colonies in The Americas run by the French, Dutch, British, Spanish, Portuguese (and Swedish) rapidly developed their own cultures and eventually rebelled against their fostering nations. Some by force (USA) or by agreement (Canada) but eventually became considerably different than their founding nationalities. It only took 200 years, give or take.
Imagine space colonies, human populations exploding with an abundance of food, lack of warfare and endless frontiers to move into. Not to mention advanced medicines and technology. How long until they too cast off the "old ways" of Earth and adopt a new form of government and society? How will Earth react to that?
Will the New Planets become soft and exploitable? Or hard and dangerous? Would they keep their allegiance with their home world or align with its enemies?
Fascinating discussion for a book about killing alien "bugs" on distant worlds, eh?
Ah! You're good to go then. I started it years ago but didn't get half-way. The first bits seemed familiar but not much.
It really is good. I can see why "liberals" would get their panties in a twist over it though.
I thought it was interesting when Johnny ordered his men to Freeze. It was rather corny that his father ended up as his subordinate though... anyhow, very interesting stuff.
I enjoyed the bookending with Johnnie becoming The Lieutenant of the Roughnecks. Ends the exact same way it begins, with nearly identical dialogue. Wondered about the change to it being Rico's Roughnecks, after the staunch refusal to change the name prior. Is that just Jelal not having the confidence in himself to accept leadership over the group, despite rising in rank by the time Johnnie gets back? Or do Jelal's motivations not matter at all and this was more of a contrivance by Heinlein to give our protagonist extra growth?
To me, it seemed like Jelal was the kind of guy who does the leading out of duty, because someone has to, not because he feels like he wants any of the glory. More of a temporary caretaker of the people than The Leader.
But that's just me, maybe I am completely wrong about it.
Glad this worked out. I read a book I hadn't thought of otherwise and finished. Will be looking forward to the next.
I like their concept of service grants citizenship, since there was more description of their government in the OCS section. Essentially that in order to have a say, you have to have given up part of your own person in interest of the government at some point. That whole thought process goes deeper as they do the same thing in their military, where the leadership must have had been one of those they lead. I didn't necessarily change my thought on it but when Johnnie's father had joined up years later, it showed that it was a bit more fair too. Because, if this were our government, I'm not sure I'd have made the choice to serve as an 18 year old but appreciate the fact it's not a now or never opportunity.
Another thought, since I've mentioned multiple times how it felt like a dystopia, or an all-too-perfect world, when that was in my head I was still working in reference to a universe of just humans. Comparing to the real world today, it's unfathomable to think that it's possible to have a society with what seems like so little infighting, but I failed to account for the common non-human enemy in the bugs.
That whole scene. When the dad showed up, I had to stop for a second and think back to the man who was introduced at the beginning. I thought about the logistics of it, how the dad is older and all, but also the fact that he went through a 180 degree change in how he was known and how he is now.
"We're the old men, Ace."
I think it's a system that could work. But the problem is getting there. You don't get there without a collapse of the present system. To the point where even the constitution isn't seen as worth preserving.
I'm starting to wonder if we're heading that way, with a brief stop at Demolition Man on the way.
The description of how the federation came about seems plausible, especially in light of the recent withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Veterans, people who know how to execute violence, fed up with lawlessness just create law unto themselves. And then it spreads. I could see it happening, but it likely won't be that simple
Will there be a final post to submit thoughts on the book as a whole? I like the chapter by chapter analysis, but I also think it would be nice to allow everyone to collectively summarize their thoughts on the entire story and philosophy of the book.
Perhaps in one week? Personally, it takes me anywhere between 3-16 days to fully digest a book - no clue where other people stand on digestion. While I am not an actual participant this time, I'm offering speculation.
Also, by having a "wrap-up" thread, you could invite people who are familiar with the book that did not feel like rereading it. Those people would then be able to share their thoughts without worrying about spoilers. Granted, they could just do that in this thread, but this thread is specifically for the final chapters.
Yeah, was gonna suggest you might wanna sticky this one, like the others...
Good job with this, dude!
Was a great idea. Wish I had more time to be a more active part of it, right now!
Keep me posted on the next one, pls.
Then again, from a logistics standpoint, some people prefer physical books. I would feel kind of iffy about picking a thing to read where everyone is forced to consume it in one single format, ideally I would go with something that can be accessed as print, digital and even audio.
But that's just me. If this gets voted, it is what the people have chosen for us.
You can just print it.
That story is much better than it has any right to be. I wouldn't be mad.
Since this is a type of fanfiction, I have to ask: does it really make an effort at tackling the subject? It's certainly evocative of some interesting philosophical matters, based on your summary. But if it's as you say, merely some drivel, wouldn't it be more to the point to present the argument directly (as you've basically done here)?
I'll go ahead and share my immediate thoughts (based on your summary). If possible, I could see a sort of utopia coming from this for everyone - but only if the people choosing life over simulation are free from the gentle tyranny of this AI. In such an altered scenario, you've basically made a gate to "heaven" and everyone who wants to give up will do so. Once all such people have surrendered, you would be left with a much different world that I think the remainders may be happier with.
Whole lot easier than finagling penal colonies and wasting resources on our present civil strifes.
Fair enough; we'll see how the voting goes.
That last chapter felt like it could have been three chapters (or two and an epilogue), it even had a couple good points to make breaks. That said I really enjoyed getting a look at a larger scale military operation (though still small enough that we could get an interesting play-by-play from Johnny, instead of an after-action summary.)
I think Heinlen might be a little optimistic about the performance of the Federation's form of government, but I can't see how it would be any worse than what we have now.
I'm not sure I have any additional thoughts on the lecture chapter I hadn't covered previously, but I certainly liked the bits at the end as Johnny was getting out of OCS (the discussion with the commandant, the superstition and tradition around the pips, the types of characters going through OCS.)
Talks about evolution shows up twice: that of planets (and humans) in 11 and the evolution of governments in 12. Maybe later, just finished those two so far.
When talking about how planets with little hardship fail to develop tough species, is Heinlein really talking about humanity? In our history, the colonies in The Americas run by the French, Dutch, British, Spanish, Portuguese (and Swedish) rapidly developed their own cultures and eventually rebelled against their fostering nations. Some by force (USA) or by agreement (Canada) but eventually became considerably different than their founding nationalities. It only took 200 years, give or take.
Imagine space colonies, human populations exploding with an abundance of food, lack of warfare and endless frontiers to move into. Not to mention advanced medicines and technology. How long until they too cast off the "old ways" of Earth and adopt a new form of government and society? How will Earth react to that?
Will the New Planets become soft and exploitable? Or hard and dangerous? Would they keep their allegiance with their home world or align with its enemies?
Fascinating discussion for a book about killing alien "bugs" on distant worlds, eh?
I'm sad I missed out on this one, but work revved up to kill most of my free time. Hopefully things settle by the time of the next one.
Read it anyhow, on the bounce, that's an order!
Oh I have many times. Its been on my shelves for years. Don't you worry about that.
Ah! You're good to go then. I started it years ago but didn't get half-way. The first bits seemed familiar but not much.
It really is good. I can see why "liberals" would get their panties in a twist over it though.
I thought it was interesting when Johnny ordered his men to Freeze. It was rather corny that his father ended up as his subordinate though... anyhow, very interesting stuff.
I enjoyed the bookending with Johnnie becoming The Lieutenant of the Roughnecks. Ends the exact same way it begins, with nearly identical dialogue. Wondered about the change to it being Rico's Roughnecks, after the staunch refusal to change the name prior. Is that just Jelal not having the confidence in himself to accept leadership over the group, despite rising in rank by the time Johnnie gets back? Or do Jelal's motivations not matter at all and this was more of a contrivance by Heinlein to give our protagonist extra growth?
To me, it seemed like Jelal was the kind of guy who does the leading out of duty, because someone has to, not because he feels like he wants any of the glory. More of a temporary caretaker of the people than The Leader.
But that's just me, maybe I am completely wrong about it.
Glad this worked out. I read a book I hadn't thought of otherwise and finished. Will be looking forward to the next.
I like their concept of service grants citizenship, since there was more description of their government in the OCS section. Essentially that in order to have a say, you have to have given up part of your own person in interest of the government at some point. That whole thought process goes deeper as they do the same thing in their military, where the leadership must have had been one of those they lead. I didn't necessarily change my thought on it but when Johnnie's father had joined up years later, it showed that it was a bit more fair too. Because, if this were our government, I'm not sure I'd have made the choice to serve as an 18 year old but appreciate the fact it's not a now or never opportunity.
Another thought, since I've mentioned multiple times how it felt like a dystopia, or an all-too-perfect world, when that was in my head I was still working in reference to a universe of just humans. Comparing to the real world today, it's unfathomable to think that it's possible to have a society with what seems like so little infighting, but I failed to account for the common non-human enemy in the bugs.