Another Minnesota resident shot and killed by feds
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Do not pull guns on cops.
Even if we assume that the police are illegally detaining you, and illegally removing the gun from you, it is only a terrible decision to try and stop that removal by fighting with them. You will get shot. There is a 100% chance of that.
"But he might not have had the gun when the cops shot him."
As with the direction the tires point on a car that strikes the officer, it actually doesn't matter all that much. If the suspect doesn't know that his gun is out of play, then it's still lethal intent on his part, and he may continue his effort to kill a police officer, and may shift to a back-up weapon when he realizes he doesn't have one. If the police don't know that the gun is out of play, then it's ongoing imminent attack with lethal force.
Here's a video of a police officer shooting a suspect with his own gun. Police will absolutely shoot you with your own gun if you are still attempting to kill them with it, even if it's in their hands.
"But one of the cops knew it was out of play."
Great, did anyone else know? Like, the cops that fired? Or were they fighting over a gun, and were under the assumption that the gun was still in play when the first round went off?
"But it might have been a negligent discharge from one of the officers?"
Was it negligent, or were they fighting over the officer's gun and that lead to a discharge? Or, did he intentionally fire his gun under the perspective that he had that the gun was still in play and threatening him? Just because it's no longer there, it doesn't mean that the officer's perspective in an entangled gun fight, wasn't reasonable.
This shit is pretty straight forward:
DO NOT. DRAW GUNS. ON COPS.
It's not like the guy was disarmed for 30+ seconds. Last time the shooting officer looked at the holster there was a gun in it, then the crazy guy appeared to reach for the holster.
Totally justified. There's simply not enough time to process "I know there was a gun there but is it still there?" Even if they train for this specific case it's just slowing their reaction down when it matters more and the gun is still there. And they don't need to train for it because: don't fight the cops especially when you have a gun and don't reach for your holster even if it's empty.
You're right on all counts. I know Robert Barnes is saying that the gun was removed from the holster by an LE, but I simply can't see that from any video, including the ones he linked. That might be true, but I can't see that. And that assumes that the other cops understand that anyone removed it. Then again, I would highly doubt that any LE would try to remove a gun from someone's holster, in their waistband, while in a giant pile-up. Best is to control the guys' hands and stuff the draw. If the gun was out of the holster, it makes me think that the suspect drew the gun. Especially since he seemed to reach for his waistband a couple of times before any of the cops noticed a gun.
These are things that you must never do when carrying a gun legally or not. A criminal would be ill advised to reach for his waist if he's carrying an illegal gun. I swear, 30% of all police shootings that don't involve a vehicle, happen because the criminal pulls a gun and gets shot as he attempts to throw it away to avoid charges.
The most potentially criminal thing I can see here is other other agents engaging in sympathetic fire. That should always be avoided, but it's such a common problem among all humans, that you should still expect to see it.
There is a time and a place to fight bad arrests and illegal charges. That place is later, with a lawyer.
Once the process of arrest starts, it can only end either with the suspect in custody OR with the suspect dead.
If the police accept escalating violence as a reason to stop an arrest, the suspect now has an incentive to become violent enough, fast enough to be released and then to repeat that process forever, evading arrest.
If a suspect escalates to lethal force (guns are always lethal force) then the police are duty-bound by their service to the wider community to shoot the suspect dead. It is the fastest way to end the threat and (just as important) it sends a message to anyone else who might think of pulling a gun on cops.
All true. Look at the shooting of Breonna Taylor for an example of a suspect shooting at police and legitimately not getting charged.
Taylor's boyfriend was a drug dealer in a "money house" and when he heard banging on the door, he didn't hear anyone calling out "police", so he posted up into a defensive position in a hallway in front of the door. He said he assumed it was Breonna's ex-boyfriend (who was a rival drug dealer, who had been known for armed robberies, and who'd threatened to kill them both). Breonna stupidly stood next to him in the middle of the hallway. When the door kicked open he fired at the men coming through he door, they fired back (killing Breonna). Once he realized it was the police, he immediately surrendered.
He was arrested afterwards, and charged with attempted murder, but the charges were dropped because he actually felt like a rival drug dealer & psycho ex-boyfriend was going to kill him. Once he understood it was the police, his co-operation was paramount to his survival and his innocence. Even though he was a criminal doing illegal things; and even shooting at the police himself; surrendering to the police was his first priority into staying alive and going free. Putting the gun away, and complying with the arrest, is the only sane option in every plausible situation.