I thought blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the only thing unforgivable. This is definitely a difficult thing to deal with. I know Bundy accepted Christ before he was electrocuted and Son of Sam has become a Christian. The idea that Christ’s sacrifice covers the most heinous things for those who are truly repentant is a tenet of faith.
No disagreements. Absolutely God knows their heart and while I’d be happy to share Christ’s message with such a person you would be crazy to have them around kids. As with Son of Sam, I hope he is truly repentant but I don’t know.
Completely agree with you about forgiveness and reconciliation
I might even go so far as to argue that putting a repentant man around children would be leading them to temptation. Would it be right for a Christian to offer a former alcoholic a drink?
Would you ever let your children near a """former""" child rapist who says he converted to Christianity and wants to teach Sunday School? Common sense would tell you no, and you'd be a fool to do it, and I'd condemn anyone who was brainless enough to let their children near such a person.
Forgiving that person does not require you to do any of that. Not even a little bit.
I think the reason people have this idea is because misbehaving people in ministry subvert the doctrine to guilt trip the church into letting them back into power.
My viewpoint is that human forgiveness is largely a personal thing, done for your own sake and heart rather than for the other person. If they have done something evil, they should still face the consequences of earthly justice for it, even if they've sought forgiveness and even if the person has forgiven them. Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation or allowing unconditional trust.
Absolutely, that's exactly what the Bible teaches. Look at David after he stole Bathsheba from Uriah and murdered him. He was forgiven, but still punished with the death of the first child from that marriage.
Those that hate Christianity are always trying things like this, and the "Church of Everlasting Love" as I refer to it doesn't help the image. I'd even argue that the existence of so many false "Churches" only serves to make it easier for things like this.
Can and does God forgive sins these heinous? Everything in the bible would say so. Is it as simple as "oh yeah just love God and Jesus and regret it a bit and you're good?" I think not. Part of repentance would be acceptance of the worldly consequences. I've often wondered, should a repenting Christian enter a plea of not guilty, for example? You're covering a sin with a lie. Anyway, it's still only for us to judge the man and give fair "worldly" punishment, then forgive move on and leave the eternal part to God.
I've been reading the bible a lot lately, sort of a "clean" reading not like bible study or looking up specific verses, but just reading it almost like a book. It's been interesting as someone who grew up Christian and had never really lost that, but lost interest in "Church."
That I do. I have a pretty good group of friends and family, some practicing Christians more than others but all with at least that similar moral compass.
It's been interesting though to just read through unhindered without someone trying to interpret things for me. Especially since a lot of it is really not all that complicated.
Part of repentance would be acceptance of the worldly consequences.
This is why Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with Me in Paradise," not "you know I am the Son of God? Cool, hop down off that cross and go home, dawg!" Forgiveness is eternal, but sin and transgression has temporal effects.
Christ is undeniably clear about the topic. Forgiveness requires genuine contrition. Continuance of the sin, furtherance of the sin, is not contrition.
That's why it's literally blasphemy to suggest that sexual deviants of any variety are forgiven. Without casting aside their wickedness they are irrevocably damned. They cast nothing aside, they wallow in it and specifically define themselves by it. Their so called marriages are blasphemous as well, a deliberate perversion of the union of man and woman designed and implemented by God.
Confession, penitence, contrition and forgiveness are strict in Catholicism for precisely that reason. For real Catholics anyway, not Bergoglio's cultists.
It's why, for example, Baptists are considered dire heretics among the faithful. Because they have perverted the act of penitence into something trite and trivial.
No arguments. I am surprised that so many people equate forgiveness with “freedoms from punishment or consequences” I go to a Lutheran church (my Catholic friends call me Catholic lite) but I do have Bible study with Catholics and listen to EWTN podcasts so I’m becoming more familiar with the different rites.
Very good, thus my point emerges. Whether they're forgiven or not by God, is God's business.
Our business is in offering them a chance to repent before we send them to Him. That's what forgiveness means from a temporal, human perspective. Offering someone a chance to be shriven before you cut off his head.
Once offered we can wash our hands of it. And I use that analogy deliberately. Christ didn't condemn Pilate to hell. Stark as it seems, it was his job.
I thought blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the only thing unforgivable. This is definitely a difficult thing to deal with. I know Bundy accepted Christ before he was electrocuted and Son of Sam has become a Christian. The idea that Christ’s sacrifice covers the most heinous things for those who are truly repentant is a tenet of faith.
No disagreements. Absolutely God knows their heart and while I’d be happy to share Christ’s message with such a person you would be crazy to have them around kids. As with Son of Sam, I hope he is truly repentant but I don’t know.
Completely agree with you about forgiveness and reconciliation
I might even go so far as to argue that putting a repentant man around children would be leading them to temptation. Would it be right for a Christian to offer a former alcoholic a drink?
True.
Forgiving that person does not require you to do any of that. Not even a little bit.
I think the reason people have this idea is because misbehaving people in ministry subvert the doctrine to guilt trip the church into letting them back into power.
Absolutely, that's exactly what the Bible teaches. Look at David after he stole Bathsheba from Uriah and murdered him. He was forgiven, but still punished with the death of the first child from that marriage.
Those that hate Christianity are always trying things like this, and the "Church of Everlasting Love" as I refer to it doesn't help the image. I'd even argue that the existence of so many false "Churches" only serves to make it easier for things like this.
Can and does God forgive sins these heinous? Everything in the bible would say so. Is it as simple as "oh yeah just love God and Jesus and regret it a bit and you're good?" I think not. Part of repentance would be acceptance of the worldly consequences. I've often wondered, should a repenting Christian enter a plea of not guilty, for example? You're covering a sin with a lie. Anyway, it's still only for us to judge the man and give fair "worldly" punishment, then forgive move on and leave the eternal part to God.
I've been reading the bible a lot lately, sort of a "clean" reading not like bible study or looking up specific verses, but just reading it almost like a book. It's been interesting as someone who grew up Christian and had never really lost that, but lost interest in "Church."
Do you have any Christian friends to talk to or fellowship with?
That I do. I have a pretty good group of friends and family, some practicing Christians more than others but all with at least that similar moral compass.
It's been interesting though to just read through unhindered without someone trying to interpret things for me. Especially since a lot of it is really not all that complicated.
Good to hear. Keep reading and feel free to discuss
This is why Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with Me in Paradise," not "you know I am the Son of God? Cool, hop down off that cross and go home, dawg!" Forgiveness is eternal, but sin and transgression has temporal effects.
Christ is undeniably clear about the topic. Forgiveness requires genuine contrition. Continuance of the sin, furtherance of the sin, is not contrition.
That's why it's literally blasphemy to suggest that sexual deviants of any variety are forgiven. Without casting aside their wickedness they are irrevocably damned. They cast nothing aside, they wallow in it and specifically define themselves by it. Their so called marriages are blasphemous as well, a deliberate perversion of the union of man and woman designed and implemented by God.
Confession, penitence, contrition and forgiveness are strict in Catholicism for precisely that reason. For real Catholics anyway, not Bergoglio's cultists.
It's why, for example, Baptists are considered dire heretics among the faithful. Because they have perverted the act of penitence into something trite and trivial.
No arguments. I am surprised that so many people equate forgiveness with “freedoms from punishment or consequences” I go to a Lutheran church (my Catholic friends call me Catholic lite) but I do have Bible study with Catholics and listen to EWTN podcasts so I’m becoming more familiar with the different rites.
Very good, thus my point emerges. Whether they're forgiven or not by God, is God's business.
Our business is in offering them a chance to repent before we send them to Him. That's what forgiveness means from a temporal, human perspective. Offering someone a chance to be shriven before you cut off his head.
Once offered we can wash our hands of it. And I use that analogy deliberately. Christ didn't condemn Pilate to hell. Stark as it seems, it was his job.
Isn't true contrition also the acceptance of appropriate punishment, even if that means life in prison or death?
Yes.