I've posted this before and I posted it again, more than half the people here who praise Japan wouldn't last five seconds in that society precisely because of what you describe. I've trained with Japanese martial arts instructors, possibly going to see about travelling to Japan sometime to maybe train there as well and holiday a bit depending.
The passive aggressive politeness with them is real. They're totally nice generally and quite forgiving of foreigners don't get me wrong, but their society is very much fuck around and find out and you have to know how to adapt to their society pretty well. People here are too individualistic so they'd immediately start stepping on toes if they hung around Japan long term. That's why there's partly a problem of even the westerners living in expat bubbles and not really adapting.
I totally agree I wouldn't really last living in Japan, and if I visited I would definitely be relying on their kindness and forgiveness. all that being said, I would not ask them to change a thing. From everything I've watched and read, their society is extremely clean and safe.
On a personal level, I think their weapons laws are extreme (historical fencing with steel trainers is more illegal there than owning a machine gun is in the US), their work culture is oppressive, their seniority system elevates people who don't deserve it while belittling people who do, and their complete allergy to rudeness is even more insulting than if they would just speak their mind. But this is all coming from a person who lives in an individualistic society were the murder rate is much higher, drug use is out of control, the streets are filled with litter, walking around at night is begging for a mugging, productivity and ingenuity are being outsourced to foreign countries, and degenerate lifestyles are considered a moral good amongst a significant portion of the population.
While I have a few theories, I don't know exactly what it is that they do that makes their society so much cleaner than ours, but whatever they're doing it's working.
Oh yeah, I'm just pointing out the realities, as for our own individualistic society, it's not about individualism itself that's the problem the rule of law has completely broken down into a system of nepotism and you see it day to day. Don't ever let twats like Jon Stewart gaslight about that and claim it's the price of freedom, they're lying. You don't have to have mass migration in a free society.
People getting caught sometimes doing the worse things imaginable and they end up getting executives jobs at corporations or they're simply moved to another part of the country while the heat dies down. Mass migration of course and the blatant discrimination going on against normal citizens has gotten to ridiculous levels and is only going to get worse.
We can still enforce the law without becoming collectivists, it's just about there being any kind of political will behind it. Right now there's nothing, even with the people who claim to care about it the most.
When you lock it down as much as they do, you lose individuality at the sake of making sure degenerates are caged up.
Except Japan is still full of antisocial whack jobs, so idk if there’s a fair balance where you can toss stones at the freaks but also not get smited just for $3 of coffee
When you lock it down as much as they do, you lose individuality
I'm honestly not sure what that means. It reminds me of the arguments in the 2000s against school uniforms in the US. Nobody could explain to me how wearing certain clothes a few hours a day was restrictive or what personal individuality was lost. I know they lean more collectivist there but that's cultural not because anything is locked down.
the US had it made at one point. Most of our cities were clean, murder rates were low, drug use was highly stigmatized and therefore underground, our productivity was high, and so was the quality of our exports.
of course, it's not like that now, but it does show that it can be done withoutsacrificing the rights of the individual.
I think most people are aware Japan has it's own share of problems, especially in major cities where the work culture and conformity are at their maximum, but what people find refreshing is that these are an entirely different set of problems from our own.
More and More, Japan's problems seem relatively quaint and managable on the grand scale. There's always a chance that a decade of good governance could right the ship, and deal with the worst of it.
In comparison, people are losing hope that the west can be fixed at all. For many, destruction of western culture seems immanent. I'm not that black pilled, but I can see where they are coming from. In any case, it would probably take more than a decade to resolve the issues we find ourselves mired in.
(Unless this all ends in fire, that can fix issues astonishingly fast. However, that's an even more undesirable solution for most.)
Yep I'd rather have a Japanese lady at 7-11 be fake polite to me than some rude Indian guy trying to overcharge me on an out of date product and then having a group of teens outside the store ask "you wanna get fuckin smashed eh cunt?"
I really miss how the west (or at least NZ where I grew up) used to be 20+ years ago.
At that time I'd say it was superior to Japan. But right now it's fucked. Not sure if its salvageable.
Partly a problem of even the westerners living in expat bubbles and not really adapting.
Not unique to Japan, either. A significant percentage of the western population in Korea lives in Seoul and frequents these same kind of bubbles. I knew Westerners who lived in Korea for years who couldn't read basic Korean, which is sad because it takes about 15 minutes to learn.
But I do think Japan is easy to navigate as a tourist if you pack your humility. I've fucked up numerous times myself, including walking into a hotel lobby with my shoes on. The reaction to that transgression was severe - imagine one of those record-scratch moments in a movie - but was quickly moved past by listening.
This also helped me out quite a bit when my wife's lab brought in a Japanese postdoc. We helped his family navigate US society a bit and we made some lifelong friends out of the deal.
Of all my international friendships, my Japanese friends are the most rock-solid.
we used to have manners (social norms), culture, and a functioning society in the USA too. step out of line and you were kicked out of your community. it worked.
All true. Working for a Japanese company would be hell. I doubt I could endure it.
Im lucky enough to work remote.
In regards to martial arts. This might not be a common experience but the kendo clubs I train at here are much more relaxed about manners and other formalities than in the western clubs Ive been to.
More physically demanding and more skilled, but just sloppy with manners.
Not what I had expected.
Being a forigner, at first they do offer you a lot of opportunities to be held to a lower standard.
Decline those offers.
Its a good way to quickly make real friends. Theres a lot of value in shared suffering.
'Deference to your superior' is a real thing and very interesting to see in action.
God help you if you, say, run a training camp without permission or at the same time as someone else higher ranked than you are. You will get in some hot water and you will be apologizing. In writing.
I've seen this happen. My own sensei won't have class if there's a training camp going on, specifically because of that. There's an arguably valid reason behind said action, mind, but it's fascinating to actually experience it.
I've posted this before and I posted it again, more than half the people here who praise Japan wouldn't last five seconds in that society precisely because of what you describe. I've trained with Japanese martial arts instructors, possibly going to see about travelling to Japan sometime to maybe train there as well and holiday a bit depending.
The passive aggressive politeness with them is real. They're totally nice generally and quite forgiving of foreigners don't get me wrong, but their society is very much fuck around and find out and you have to know how to adapt to their society pretty well. People here are too individualistic so they'd immediately start stepping on toes if they hung around Japan long term. That's why there's partly a problem of even the westerners living in expat bubbles and not really adapting.
I totally agree I wouldn't really last living in Japan, and if I visited I would definitely be relying on their kindness and forgiveness. all that being said, I would not ask them to change a thing. From everything I've watched and read, their society is extremely clean and safe.
On a personal level, I think their weapons laws are extreme (historical fencing with steel trainers is more illegal there than owning a machine gun is in the US), their work culture is oppressive, their seniority system elevates people who don't deserve it while belittling people who do, and their complete allergy to rudeness is even more insulting than if they would just speak their mind. But this is all coming from a person who lives in an individualistic society were the murder rate is much higher, drug use is out of control, the streets are filled with litter, walking around at night is begging for a mugging, productivity and ingenuity are being outsourced to foreign countries, and degenerate lifestyles are considered a moral good amongst a significant portion of the population.
While I have a few theories, I don't know exactly what it is that they do that makes their society so much cleaner than ours, but whatever they're doing it's working.
Japan shouldn't change a thing.
Oh yeah, I'm just pointing out the realities, as for our own individualistic society, it's not about individualism itself that's the problem the rule of law has completely broken down into a system of nepotism and you see it day to day. Don't ever let twats like Jon Stewart gaslight about that and claim it's the price of freedom, they're lying. You don't have to have mass migration in a free society.
People getting caught sometimes doing the worse things imaginable and they end up getting executives jobs at corporations or they're simply moved to another part of the country while the heat dies down. Mass migration of course and the blatant discrimination going on against normal citizens has gotten to ridiculous levels and is only going to get worse.
We can still enforce the law without becoming collectivists, it's just about there being any kind of political will behind it. Right now there's nothing, even with the people who claim to care about it the most.
When you lock it down as much as they do, you lose individuality at the sake of making sure degenerates are caged up.
Except Japan is still full of antisocial whack jobs, so idk if there’s a fair balance where you can toss stones at the freaks but also not get smited just for $3 of coffee
I'm honestly not sure what that means. It reminds me of the arguments in the 2000s against school uniforms in the US. Nobody could explain to me how wearing certain clothes a few hours a day was restrictive or what personal individuality was lost. I know they lean more collectivist there but that's cultural not because anything is locked down.
the US had it made at one point. Most of our cities were clean, murder rates were low, drug use was highly stigmatized and therefore underground, our productivity was high, and so was the quality of our exports.
of course, it's not like that now, but it does show that it can be done withoutsacrificing the rights of the individual.
I think most people are aware Japan has it's own share of problems, especially in major cities where the work culture and conformity are at their maximum, but what people find refreshing is that these are an entirely different set of problems from our own.
More and More, Japan's problems seem relatively quaint and managable on the grand scale. There's always a chance that a decade of good governance could right the ship, and deal with the worst of it.
In comparison, people are losing hope that the west can be fixed at all. For many, destruction of western culture seems immanent. I'm not that black pilled, but I can see where they are coming from. In any case, it would probably take more than a decade to resolve the issues we find ourselves mired in.
(Unless this all ends in fire, that can fix issues astonishingly fast. However, that's an even more undesirable solution for most.)
Yep I'd rather have a Japanese lady at 7-11 be fake polite to me than some rude Indian guy trying to overcharge me on an out of date product and then having a group of teens outside the store ask "you wanna get fuckin smashed eh cunt?"
I really miss how the west (or at least NZ where I grew up) used to be 20+ years ago. At that time I'd say it was superior to Japan. But right now it's fucked. Not sure if its salvageable.
You can reverse almost anything except demographic replacement. Which is why they are using demographic replacement.
Not unique to Japan, either. A significant percentage of the western population in Korea lives in Seoul and frequents these same kind of bubbles. I knew Westerners who lived in Korea for years who couldn't read basic Korean, which is sad because it takes about 15 minutes to learn.
But I do think Japan is easy to navigate as a tourist if you pack your humility. I've fucked up numerous times myself, including walking into a hotel lobby with my shoes on. The reaction to that transgression was severe - imagine one of those record-scratch moments in a movie - but was quickly moved past by listening.
This also helped me out quite a bit when my wife's lab brought in a Japanese postdoc. We helped his family navigate US society a bit and we made some lifelong friends out of the deal.
Of all my international friendships, my Japanese friends are the most rock-solid.
we used to have manners (social norms), culture, and a functioning society in the USA too. step out of line and you were kicked out of your community. it worked.
At the very least you got punched in the face and this was everywhere.
All true. Working for a Japanese company would be hell. I doubt I could endure it. Im lucky enough to work remote.
In regards to martial arts. This might not be a common experience but the kendo clubs I train at here are much more relaxed about manners and other formalities than in the western clubs Ive been to. More physically demanding and more skilled, but just sloppy with manners. Not what I had expected. Being a forigner, at first they do offer you a lot of opportunities to be held to a lower standard. Decline those offers.
Its a good way to quickly make real friends. Theres a lot of value in shared suffering.
'Deference to your superior' is a real thing and very interesting to see in action.
God help you if you, say, run a training camp without permission or at the same time as someone else higher ranked than you are. You will get in some hot water and you will be apologizing. In writing.
I've seen this happen. My own sensei won't have class if there's a training camp going on, specifically because of that. There's an arguably valid reason behind said action, mind, but it's fascinating to actually experience it.
There’s upsides and downsides. They are #1 at preserving a homogeneous society, at the expense that they typically push too far in a lot of ways