I consumed their content for several years in the past. I don't misunderstand them, they're simply dead wrong about abstaining from women being a solution to anything.
How so? I feel like a lot of people are discussing birth rates as a problem to the sustainability of society. Elon Musk talks about it. Some politicians like DeSantis touches on it. As birth rates do continue to plummet and while immigration is not popular, people will start trying to tackle the birth rate problem. The more men who are checked out of the system completely, the harder it'll be to find a solution so the more extreme people will go toward creating a solution and typically, the way the solutions will go will be to oppress men more which will actually exasperate the problem until there is a breakdown in civilization which would allow for men to reestablish a patriarchy from the ashes of civilization.
IMO anyhow, there is no solution without completely tearing down civilization today as we know it. A solution within the system can never be had, ever. We've gone too far that the only potential path up is to tear it all down and start new.
Which isn't really a solution, it's losing the game and then bringing in a new set of players for the next game.
It also appears to be the go-to "answer" for a lot of the problems we're facing today.
"Oh just wait until civilization collapses and then we'll just create our utopia afterwards." It's not problem solving. It's wishful thinking.
I don't think it's wishful thinking, I just think it's really the only solution. I'd love for there to be another solution but there isn't. Nukes going off is basically the only solution.
I see MGTOW as recognizing both the biological limitations of women, and the societal institutions set up to advance their interests at the expense of men. Nothing can change biology, but by saying "I'm out until you fix your shit" you can possibly incentivize society to change. And if it doesn't, so be it- at least you're not playing a losing game.
Men's rights groups have tried working within the system to change it and failed. Your remaining choices are to submit and become an ATM for some woman, or walk away.
I don't know of a solution, which is part of my frustration with the refusal to brainstorm.
You can't change biology, but women are still super malleable to social pressures, so any long term fix is going to involve re-establishing social pressures to guide their behavior. There's a reason every single society going back thousands of years has placed strict restrictions on female sexuality and just done a whole lot to put in guard rails to mitigate the damage of hysterical women.
This however:
Nothing can change biology, but by saying "I'm out until you fix your shit" you can possibly incentivize society to change.
is just retarded. Women aren't going to self correct. That's you sitting in a corner pouting like a child. External pressures are the only thing that's going to correct women's behaviors, whether that be civilization collapsing or some other force that we devise to prevent the need for that approach. If you don't want to make an effort to figure out what the fix is then so be it, but don't sit here and pretend like you giving up is anything other than that. You're not fixing the problem, you're not incentivizing women to change what they're doing. You're giving up and walking away from the situation. Nothing more and nothing less.
So yeah, my proposal for fixing this is hijack the societal brainwashing apparatus and recalibrate it to call whores bad people again and praise women who are loyal. That's the bare minimum I see as having any hope of influencing women's behavior. We all know normies can be programmed and women are basically all normies.
I'm not sure where you're getting "giving up" from MGTOW. It's a very rational calculation of the costs and benefits of entering into a relationship or marriage or having children and deciding that the cost exceed the benefits.
If you cancel your cable subscription because they raise the price and you no longer feel you're getting an appropriate level of value in return, do you also consider that "giving up" on cable?
The freedom to not enter into a relationship is one of the few you've got left. Once you're dating or married there are plenty of laws that strip you of personal agency and help transfer your wealth to women. MGTOW maximizes your benefits by protecting you from that. If the situation changes to make it worthwhile to date again, then great, but MGTOW optimizes you for the reality today.
So yeah, my proposal for fixing this is hijack the societal brainwashing apparatus and recalibrate it to call whores bad people again and praise women who are loyal.
Oh gotcha, we'll just rewrite how society works. And how do we do that?
Well, we could change a bunch of laws. Oh shit, the government is 100% in favor of females and actively supports pro-female discrimination in the workplace and family court is pretty much designed to extract everything possible from men and give it to women. They're probably not going to jump on board with your big plan.
How about the media? We could use them to change social norms. Too bad buddy, they're in lockstep with the government. They paint even moderate men's rights activists as wackos; they're absolutely not going to adopt your point of view. Slut shaming is probably the nicest thing they'll accuse you of.
You all aren't listening and are talking as if I'm unfamiliar with MGTOW and it's incredibly annoying. It would be more productive for me to become outright hostile at this point in the conversation if I'm going to bother continuing it at all.
Sitting on your ass isn't a solution, it's giving up on solving the problem and opting to simply save your own hide. Admit as much to yourselves or shut the fuck up.
Think of MGTOW as a strike. It hurts both sides in the short term, but it doesn't need to drag the company under, and it doesn't even need to be the entire workforce.
The goal is to make it clear that things will continue to get worse, and present demands that are less painful than the alternative. Given the alternative is "total societal collapse", that should give pretty good leverage to fix some shit.
This all assumes rational actors, which is a comically naive mistake at this point. It's why I don't really have any respect for people who think what they're doing will actually change things. The guys who are just going "fuck this, I'm out", cool. The people who've convinced themselves something's going to change because of it are in denial or just stupid.
I consumed their content for several years in the past. I don't misunderstand them, they're simply dead wrong about abstaining from women being a solution to anything.
How so? I feel like a lot of people are discussing birth rates as a problem to the sustainability of society. Elon Musk talks about it. Some politicians like DeSantis touches on it. As birth rates do continue to plummet and while immigration is not popular, people will start trying to tackle the birth rate problem. The more men who are checked out of the system completely, the harder it'll be to find a solution so the more extreme people will go toward creating a solution and typically, the way the solutions will go will be to oppress men more which will actually exasperate the problem until there is a breakdown in civilization which would allow for men to reestablish a patriarchy from the ashes of civilization.
IMO anyhow, there is no solution without completely tearing down civilization today as we know it. A solution within the system can never be had, ever. We've gone too far that the only potential path up is to tear it all down and start new.
Which isn't really a solution, it's losing the game and then bringing in a new set of players for the next game.
It also appears to be the go-to "answer" for a lot of the problems we're facing today. "Oh just wait until civilization collapses and then we'll just create our utopia afterwards." It's not problem solving. It's wishful thinking.
I don't think it's wishful thinking, I just think it's really the only solution. I'd love for there to be another solution but there isn't. Nukes going off is basically the only solution.
Again, that's not a solution. That's game over.
So then what's your proposed solution?
I see MGTOW as recognizing both the biological limitations of women, and the societal institutions set up to advance their interests at the expense of men. Nothing can change biology, but by saying "I'm out until you fix your shit" you can possibly incentivize society to change. And if it doesn't, so be it- at least you're not playing a losing game.
Men's rights groups have tried working within the system to change it and failed. Your remaining choices are to submit and become an ATM for some woman, or walk away.
I don't know of a solution, which is part of my frustration with the refusal to brainstorm.
You can't change biology, but women are still super malleable to social pressures, so any long term fix is going to involve re-establishing social pressures to guide their behavior. There's a reason every single society going back thousands of years has placed strict restrictions on female sexuality and just done a whole lot to put in guard rails to mitigate the damage of hysterical women.
This however:
is just retarded. Women aren't going to self correct. That's you sitting in a corner pouting like a child. External pressures are the only thing that's going to correct women's behaviors, whether that be civilization collapsing or some other force that we devise to prevent the need for that approach. If you don't want to make an effort to figure out what the fix is then so be it, but don't sit here and pretend like you giving up is anything other than that. You're not fixing the problem, you're not incentivizing women to change what they're doing. You're giving up and walking away from the situation. Nothing more and nothing less.
So yeah, my proposal for fixing this is hijack the societal brainwashing apparatus and recalibrate it to call whores bad people again and praise women who are loyal. That's the bare minimum I see as having any hope of influencing women's behavior. We all know normies can be programmed and women are basically all normies.
I'm not sure where you're getting "giving up" from MGTOW. It's a very rational calculation of the costs and benefits of entering into a relationship or marriage or having children and deciding that the cost exceed the benefits.
If you cancel your cable subscription because they raise the price and you no longer feel you're getting an appropriate level of value in return, do you also consider that "giving up" on cable?
The freedom to not enter into a relationship is one of the few you've got left. Once you're dating or married there are plenty of laws that strip you of personal agency and help transfer your wealth to women. MGTOW maximizes your benefits by protecting you from that. If the situation changes to make it worthwhile to date again, then great, but MGTOW optimizes you for the reality today.
Oh gotcha, we'll just rewrite how society works. And how do we do that?
Well, we could change a bunch of laws. Oh shit, the government is 100% in favor of females and actively supports pro-female discrimination in the workplace and family court is pretty much designed to extract everything possible from men and give it to women. They're probably not going to jump on board with your big plan.
How about the media? We could use them to change social norms. Too bad buddy, they're in lockstep with the government. They paint even moderate men's rights activists as wackos; they're absolutely not going to adopt your point of view. Slut shaming is probably the nicest thing they'll accuse you of.
So whadda you got left?
You all aren't listening and are talking as if I'm unfamiliar with MGTOW and it's incredibly annoying. It would be more productive for me to become outright hostile at this point in the conversation if I'm going to bother continuing it at all.
Sitting on your ass isn't a solution, it's giving up on solving the problem and opting to simply save your own hide. Admit as much to yourselves or shut the fuck up.
Think of MGTOW as a strike. It hurts both sides in the short term, but it doesn't need to drag the company under, and it doesn't even need to be the entire workforce.
The goal is to make it clear that things will continue to get worse, and present demands that are less painful than the alternative. Given the alternative is "total societal collapse", that should give pretty good leverage to fix some shit.
This all assumes rational actors, which is a comically naive mistake at this point. It's why I don't really have any respect for people who think what they're doing will actually change things. The guys who are just going "fuck this, I'm out", cool. The people who've convinced themselves something's going to change because of it are in denial or just stupid.