I see MGTOW as recognizing both the biological limitations of women, and the societal institutions set up to advance their interests at the expense of men. Nothing can change biology, but by saying "I'm out until you fix your shit" you can possibly incentivize society to change. And if it doesn't, so be it- at least you're not playing a losing game.
Men's rights groups have tried working within the system to change it and failed. Your remaining choices are to submit and become an ATM for some woman, or walk away.
I don't know of a solution, which is part of my frustration with the refusal to brainstorm.
You can't change biology, but women are still super malleable to social pressures, so any long term fix is going to involve re-establishing social pressures to guide their behavior. There's a reason every single society going back thousands of years has placed strict restrictions on female sexuality and just done a whole lot to put in guard rails to mitigate the damage of hysterical women.
This however:
Nothing can change biology, but by saying "I'm out until you fix your shit" you can possibly incentivize society to change.
is just retarded. Women aren't going to self correct. That's you sitting in a corner pouting like a child. External pressures are the only thing that's going to correct women's behaviors, whether that be civilization collapsing or some other force that we devise to prevent the need for that approach. If you don't want to make an effort to figure out what the fix is then so be it, but don't sit here and pretend like you giving up is anything other than that. You're not fixing the problem, you're not incentivizing women to change what they're doing. You're giving up and walking away from the situation. Nothing more and nothing less.
So yeah, my proposal for fixing this is hijack the societal brainwashing apparatus and recalibrate it to call whores bad people again and praise women who are loyal. That's the bare minimum I see as having any hope of influencing women's behavior. We all know normies can be programmed and women are basically all normies.
I'm not sure where you're getting "giving up" from MGTOW. It's a very rational calculation of the costs and benefits of entering into a relationship or marriage or having children and deciding that the cost exceed the benefits.
If you cancel your cable subscription because they raise the price and you no longer feel you're getting an appropriate level of value in return, do you also consider that "giving up" on cable?
The freedom to not enter into a relationship is one of the few you've got left. Once you're dating or married there are plenty of laws that strip you of personal agency and help transfer your wealth to women. MGTOW maximizes your benefits by protecting you from that. If the situation changes to make it worthwhile to date again, then great, but MGTOW optimizes you for the reality today.
So yeah, my proposal for fixing this is hijack the societal brainwashing apparatus and recalibrate it to call whores bad people again and praise women who are loyal.
Oh gotcha, we'll just rewrite how society works. And how do we do that?
Well, we could change a bunch of laws. Oh shit, the government is 100% in favor of females and actively supports pro-female discrimination in the workplace and family court is pretty much designed to extract everything possible from men and give it to women. They're probably not going to jump on board with your big plan.
How about the media? We could use them to change social norms. Too bad buddy, they're in lockstep with the government. They paint even moderate men's rights activists as wackos; they're absolutely not going to adopt your point of view. Slut shaming is probably the nicest thing they'll accuse you of.
You all aren't listening and are talking as if I'm unfamiliar with MGTOW and it's incredibly annoying. It would be more productive for me to become outright hostile at this point in the conversation if I'm going to bother continuing it at all.
Sitting on your ass isn't a solution, it's giving up on solving the problem and opting to simply save your own hide. Admit as much to yourselves or shut the fuck up.
As I said, weighing costs and benefits and taking the most efficient course of action isn't sitting on your ass or giving up. It's accepting reality and optimizing your experience in life based on it.
I'll ask again: what is your proposed solution? Your answer so far seems to be simply "remake society to enforce traditional values on women". Believing that the Western world is going to just wake up and decide that they're doing it wrong is pure fantasy. And unless you've got the largest army the world has ever seen you're not going to be able to force it on them either.
Think of MGTOW as a strike. It hurts both sides in the short term, but it doesn't need to drag the company under, and it doesn't even need to be the entire workforce.
The goal is to make it clear that things will continue to get worse, and present demands that are less painful than the alternative. Given the alternative is "total societal collapse", that should give pretty good leverage to fix some shit.
This all assumes rational actors, which is a comically naive mistake at this point. It's why I don't really have any respect for people who think what they're doing will actually change things. The guys who are just going "fuck this, I'm out", cool. The people who've convinced themselves something's going to change because of it are in denial or just stupid.
Son you don't know how many women will quickly settle for anything to have an easier life and follow the crowd. They can be very rational when it comes to self-interest, just stop handing things to them on a silver platter.
It's a farce that you're calling other people naive when you're doing the angsty teen "urgh, I'm the only sane person in the world, no-one else understands how rational I am!" bullshit.
Yeah it assumes at least partially rational actors, not the stupid idealized economist "perfectly rational and omniscient actors". Just regular everyday rational people, of which there are many.
You're bitching about things based off an assumption that the only societally significant portion of humanity is perfectly irrational. At which point I don't know why you're even concerned about the collapse of civilization in the first place, functional vegetables like that wouldn't have a civilization to lose.
Even if maybe as much as 5-10% of the populace are simply too irrational to negotiate with under any circumstances, do you really think changing the mind of the remaining 90% is pointless?
You also seem to be under the impression that MGTOW on a large scale wouldn't be exerting any kind of societal pressure. For one, most heterosexual women do actually want a man. You're crazy if you're taking the ones drowning their denial in cats and wine at face value. Actually listen to them in any relaxed intimate setting and they'll tell you over and over how important finding a romantic partner is to them. Hell just look at the volume of softcore smut and romance books they buy. So that's one thing they're getting denied immediately.
And two, every man who earnestly stops simping for them isn't just directly stopping giving them free shit, they're also going to be competing against them for money and power instead, and even on a level playing field that is going to hurt double. But I'm not assuming a level playing field, I'm assuming any man willing to go MGTOW is not just willing but eager to form an unspoken brotherhood to rival the feminist sisterhood in terms of undermining women and favoring men in their professional and social circles. Not just strategically, but because it will simply make their lives so much easier and happier. Once enough guys simply stop giving a fuck the workplace will start looking like 80s wall street again. All those successful ancient civilizations you idolize didn't start out with the explicit goal of patriarchy, they just landed on it naturally by all the men who were most competent and capable pushing the less capable to the sideline and not letting them into positions to fuck anything important up.
So then what's your proposed solution?
I see MGTOW as recognizing both the biological limitations of women, and the societal institutions set up to advance their interests at the expense of men. Nothing can change biology, but by saying "I'm out until you fix your shit" you can possibly incentivize society to change. And if it doesn't, so be it- at least you're not playing a losing game.
Men's rights groups have tried working within the system to change it and failed. Your remaining choices are to submit and become an ATM for some woman, or walk away.
I don't know of a solution, which is part of my frustration with the refusal to brainstorm.
You can't change biology, but women are still super malleable to social pressures, so any long term fix is going to involve re-establishing social pressures to guide their behavior. There's a reason every single society going back thousands of years has placed strict restrictions on female sexuality and just done a whole lot to put in guard rails to mitigate the damage of hysterical women.
This however:
is just retarded. Women aren't going to self correct. That's you sitting in a corner pouting like a child. External pressures are the only thing that's going to correct women's behaviors, whether that be civilization collapsing or some other force that we devise to prevent the need for that approach. If you don't want to make an effort to figure out what the fix is then so be it, but don't sit here and pretend like you giving up is anything other than that. You're not fixing the problem, you're not incentivizing women to change what they're doing. You're giving up and walking away from the situation. Nothing more and nothing less.
So yeah, my proposal for fixing this is hijack the societal brainwashing apparatus and recalibrate it to call whores bad people again and praise women who are loyal. That's the bare minimum I see as having any hope of influencing women's behavior. We all know normies can be programmed and women are basically all normies.
I'm not sure where you're getting "giving up" from MGTOW. It's a very rational calculation of the costs and benefits of entering into a relationship or marriage or having children and deciding that the cost exceed the benefits.
If you cancel your cable subscription because they raise the price and you no longer feel you're getting an appropriate level of value in return, do you also consider that "giving up" on cable?
The freedom to not enter into a relationship is one of the few you've got left. Once you're dating or married there are plenty of laws that strip you of personal agency and help transfer your wealth to women. MGTOW maximizes your benefits by protecting you from that. If the situation changes to make it worthwhile to date again, then great, but MGTOW optimizes you for the reality today.
Oh gotcha, we'll just rewrite how society works. And how do we do that?
Well, we could change a bunch of laws. Oh shit, the government is 100% in favor of females and actively supports pro-female discrimination in the workplace and family court is pretty much designed to extract everything possible from men and give it to women. They're probably not going to jump on board with your big plan.
How about the media? We could use them to change social norms. Too bad buddy, they're in lockstep with the government. They paint even moderate men's rights activists as wackos; they're absolutely not going to adopt your point of view. Slut shaming is probably the nicest thing they'll accuse you of.
So whadda you got left?
You all aren't listening and are talking as if I'm unfamiliar with MGTOW and it's incredibly annoying. It would be more productive for me to become outright hostile at this point in the conversation if I'm going to bother continuing it at all.
Sitting on your ass isn't a solution, it's giving up on solving the problem and opting to simply save your own hide. Admit as much to yourselves or shut the fuck up.
As I said, weighing costs and benefits and taking the most efficient course of action isn't sitting on your ass or giving up. It's accepting reality and optimizing your experience in life based on it.
I'll ask again: what is your proposed solution? Your answer so far seems to be simply "remake society to enforce traditional values on women". Believing that the Western world is going to just wake up and decide that they're doing it wrong is pure fantasy. And unless you've got the largest army the world has ever seen you're not going to be able to force it on them either.
Think of MGTOW as a strike. It hurts both sides in the short term, but it doesn't need to drag the company under, and it doesn't even need to be the entire workforce.
The goal is to make it clear that things will continue to get worse, and present demands that are less painful than the alternative. Given the alternative is "total societal collapse", that should give pretty good leverage to fix some shit.
This all assumes rational actors, which is a comically naive mistake at this point. It's why I don't really have any respect for people who think what they're doing will actually change things. The guys who are just going "fuck this, I'm out", cool. The people who've convinced themselves something's going to change because of it are in denial or just stupid.
Son you don't know how many women will quickly settle for anything to have an easier life and follow the crowd. They can be very rational when it comes to self-interest, just stop handing things to them on a silver platter.
It's a farce that you're calling other people naive when you're doing the angsty teen "urgh, I'm the only sane person in the world, no-one else understands how rational I am!" bullshit.
Yeah it assumes at least partially rational actors, not the stupid idealized economist "perfectly rational and omniscient actors". Just regular everyday rational people, of which there are many.
You're bitching about things based off an assumption that the only societally significant portion of humanity is perfectly irrational. At which point I don't know why you're even concerned about the collapse of civilization in the first place, functional vegetables like that wouldn't have a civilization to lose.
Even if maybe as much as 5-10% of the populace are simply too irrational to negotiate with under any circumstances, do you really think changing the mind of the remaining 90% is pointless?
You also seem to be under the impression that MGTOW on a large scale wouldn't be exerting any kind of societal pressure. For one, most heterosexual women do actually want a man. You're crazy if you're taking the ones drowning their denial in cats and wine at face value. Actually listen to them in any relaxed intimate setting and they'll tell you over and over how important finding a romantic partner is to them. Hell just look at the volume of softcore smut and romance books they buy. So that's one thing they're getting denied immediately.
And two, every man who earnestly stops simping for them isn't just directly stopping giving them free shit, they're also going to be competing against them for money and power instead, and even on a level playing field that is going to hurt double. But I'm not assuming a level playing field, I'm assuming any man willing to go MGTOW is not just willing but eager to form an unspoken brotherhood to rival the feminist sisterhood in terms of undermining women and favoring men in their professional and social circles. Not just strategically, but because it will simply make their lives so much easier and happier. Once enough guys simply stop giving a fuck the workplace will start looking like 80s wall street again. All those successful ancient civilizations you idolize didn't start out with the explicit goal of patriarchy, they just landed on it naturally by all the men who were most competent and capable pushing the less capable to the sideline and not letting them into positions to fuck anything important up.