When I was younger, I had no idea how many people - consciously or otherwise - view language entirely as transactional. They treat all communication as an exercise in extracting benefits from (or causing harm to) other people. There is almost no adherence to principle or truth or reality. It goes beyond mere rational self-interest and into the realm of pathologically dishonest existence.
When you don’t know this about the world, because you maybe grew up surrounded by honest communicators, then you make all kinds of mistakes on account of your projecting your own mode of thinking onto others. This is vaguely related to the concept of gullibility.
Probably the prevalence of such bug people has always been high. Maybe the primary purpose of religion was to suppress this broken segment of the population, for the betterment of mankind. Broadly enforcing cultural norms via religion also forces those bug people to adopt a different ethos (on a surface level) in order to survive. I dunno, I’m spitballing.
Broadly enforcing cultural norms via religion also forces those bug people to adopt a different ethos (on a surface level) in order to survive. I dunno, I’m spitballing.
It would also allow punishment by ostracization if word got out you weren't honest, people would charge you more for goods and services and demand pay upfront, and favours would never be granted. If it was an extremely bad case you would simply be exiled and have to fend for yourself. Being exiled in those days would mean you were a vagabond and those had an extremely tough time surviving as moving from your village was almost never done unless you married to someone from another village.
Maybe the primary purpose of religion was to suppress this broken segment of the population, for the betterment of mankind.
Pretty much. Among other things.
This is something that's been stuck in my mental craw and I've been chewing on it for a while.
Strip out the supernatural elements of scripture, and what are you left with? Stories, parables, teachings, philosophy, all geared around the idea of 'this is how you live a functioning life'. It's an answer to a problem people have forgotten about.
And then they get surprised when you rip all of it away you get an absolute mess of a clusterfuck.
Surprise, shit that's been around for over two thousand years at a minimum actually has a purpose! Who knew?
This is twice you have made a statement along these lines, and it shows that you have not thought about the purpose of communicating. Why bother communicating if it isn't to accomplish some purpose? Is it just to fill the air with sound waves because you are afraid of silence?
An honest teacher attempts to imbue a student with knowledge in the hopes of benefiting, if not himself, at least his tribe or perhaps humanity as a whole, while a dishonest teacher imbues a student with propaganda, reinforcing his agenda. You and I both post here in the hopes of influencing others to think more similarly to us. Even animals communicate to cause others to do something, whether it is a mating call, a call of warning, communicating food, or location. In every case it is an attempt to inflict your will upon the world. What else could it be?
They treat all communication as an exercise in extracting benefits from (or causing harm to) other people.
is the core of the problem.
Everyone uses communication to extract some benefit.
The dishonest one is to say whatever is necessary to obtain your goal with no regard for what you actually believe.
And your example, is exactly that, someone saying a specific set of words to accomplish their goal. In either scenario, the words spoken and the outcome, whatever it is, are identical. The buyer manipulated the seller.
You seem to have some distinction between good manipulation and bad manipulation where there is only just manipulation. It is a tool like any other.
As for trust, you can only have a high trust society when it is in others self interest to see you succeed. Your success contributes to their DNA being passed on, either because you have the same ancestors and thus DNA, or because you will in the future help them (enlightened self interest). Anytime either of those preconditions are violated, no matter how communication occurs, you will have a low trust society. In a low trust society communication doesn't matter because the niggers are just gonna steal everything anyways.
When I was younger, I had no idea how many people - consciously or otherwise - view language entirely as transactional. They treat all communication as an exercise in extracting benefits from (or causing harm to) other people. There is almost no adherence to principle or truth or reality. It goes beyond mere rational self-interest and into the realm of pathologically dishonest existence.
When you don’t know this about the world, because you maybe grew up surrounded by honest communicators, then you make all kinds of mistakes on account of your projecting your own mode of thinking onto others. This is vaguely related to the concept of gullibility.
Probably the prevalence of such bug people has always been high. Maybe the primary purpose of religion was to suppress this broken segment of the population, for the betterment of mankind. Broadly enforcing cultural norms via religion also forces those bug people to adopt a different ethos (on a surface level) in order to survive. I dunno, I’m spitballing.
It would also allow punishment by ostracization if word got out you weren't honest, people would charge you more for goods and services and demand pay upfront, and favours would never be granted. If it was an extremely bad case you would simply be exiled and have to fend for yourself. Being exiled in those days would mean you were a vagabond and those had an extremely tough time surviving as moving from your village was almost never done unless you married to someone from another village.
Pretty much. Among other things.
This is something that's been stuck in my mental craw and I've been chewing on it for a while.
Strip out the supernatural elements of scripture, and what are you left with? Stories, parables, teachings, philosophy, all geared around the idea of 'this is how you live a functioning life'. It's an answer to a problem people have forgotten about. And then they get surprised when you rip all of it away you get an absolute mess of a clusterfuck.
Surprise, shit that's been around for over two thousand years at a minimum actually has a purpose! Who knew?
This is twice you have made a statement along these lines, and it shows that you have not thought about the purpose of communicating. Why bother communicating if it isn't to accomplish some purpose? Is it just to fill the air with sound waves because you are afraid of silence?
An honest teacher attempts to imbue a student with knowledge in the hopes of benefiting, if not himself, at least his tribe or perhaps humanity as a whole, while a dishonest teacher imbues a student with propaganda, reinforcing his agenda. You and I both post here in the hopes of influencing others to think more similarly to us. Even animals communicate to cause others to do something, whether it is a mating call, a call of warning, communicating food, or location. In every case it is an attempt to inflict your will upon the world. What else could it be?
Ch's statement:
Everyone uses communication to extract some benefit.
And your example, is exactly that, someone saying a specific set of words to accomplish their goal. In either scenario, the words spoken and the outcome, whatever it is, are identical. The buyer manipulated the seller.
You seem to have some distinction between good manipulation and bad manipulation where there is only just manipulation. It is a tool like any other.
As for trust, you can only have a high trust society when it is in others self interest to see you succeed. Your success contributes to their DNA being passed on, either because you have the same ancestors and thus DNA, or because you will in the future help them (enlightened self interest). Anytime either of those preconditions are violated, no matter how communication occurs, you will have a low trust society. In a low trust society communication doesn't matter because the niggers are just gonna steal everything anyways.
Manipulation requires intent.
shit leftists don't use language to inform, but to manipulate
EVERYONE uses language to manipulate.
I would argue that persuasion and manipulation are very different.