Just establishing a baseline framework. If were not on the same page on this, nothing else I'd say would make sense.
Marxism caught on better in the Pale than most anywhere else, for understandable reasons. Many of the revolutionaries that would go on to kill Tsar Alexander II were of Jewish background. That assassination was the catalyst for the pogroms,with many Eastern European Jews fleeing to America in the 1880-1920s. Particularly New York. They brought with them their socialist and Marxist ideologies, and set up some of the earliest Socialist organizations in America.
Many of the revolutionaries that would go on to kill Tsar Alexander II were of Jewish background.
Many? How many? I am pretty sure I know, but I don't think you do.
Note that terrorism in general was done by the so called Socialist Revolutionaries, who were not Marxist but agrarian socialists.
That assassination was the catalyst for the pogroms,with many Eastern European Jews fleeing to America in the 1880-1920s. Particularly New York. They brought with them their socialist and Marxist ideologies, and set up some of the earliest Socialist organizations in America.
The Eastern European Jews who fled were, generally, neither socialist nor Marxist. They were very quiet, traditionally religious types. This is actually what gave a massive spur to anti-Semitism, because the highly assimilated Jews of countries like Germany and France, and the German immigrant Jews of America, were suddenly confronted with Jews whom they considered to be beneath them - 'kikes', because they could not sign their name and instead used a circle.
Note that socialism never caught on in America, at least socialism as we know it in Europe, socialism of the Eduard Bernstein (yeah, hah hah hah) variety. Also note that socialism existed in Europe long before the Eastern European Jewish exodus. Europe, which was exporting a lot of its own population to the US at the same time.
Okay, you're going to pick hairs, and I'll have to cite Narodnaya Volya Jewish membership (and other Russian revolutionary political organizations), and you'll say only one active jewish assassin, the organization didn't matter, then we'll have to discuss the socialist living conditions Jews were accustomed to, then we'll probably eventually get into whether Jewish Bolshevism was a thing or not... which sounds kind of fun, but I probably won't have time for this can of worms today.
Also, kikels, because they refused to use a mark that looked similar to a cross.
I don't think that was hair-splitting at all. If you say 'many' assassins were Jews, and it's only one, I am pretty sure you are under a misapprehension. I also think you had the causality mixed up a bit. Insofar as Jews were attracted to anti-government movements, it came after the assassination and the pogroms that followed, which were wrongly blamed on Russian government collusion.
and I'll have to cite Narodnaya Volya Jewish membership (and other Russian revolutionary political organizations)...the organization didn't matter
Depends on what you want to prove. I assert that the overwhelming majority of Eastern European Jews had nothing at all to do with any radical ideology. Insofar as letting them in was a trojan horse for some rabid ideologues coming in - that is to be expected, which is why I oppose immigration of any kind.
then we'll have to discuss the socialist living conditions Jews were accustomed to
I know nothing of that. Insofar as I know, they were very capitalist middlemen.
then we'll probably eventually get into whether Jewish Bolshevism was a thing or not...
Knowing a few things about history, 'Judeo-Bolshevism' makes my hair raise.
Also, kikels, because they refused to use a mark that looked similar to a cross.
Yes, they were God-fearers par excellence. Quite incompatible with the anti-religious doctrines of Marxism/socialism. Those who did join those movements turned their back on their people and culture.
But you go ahead and specify your intermediate conclusion, what you tried to prove with this, and we will accept it arguendo. I am curious as to what conclusion you will then draw from that.
If you say 'many' assassins were Jews, and it's only one, I am pretty sure you are under a misapprehension.
Fair enough. Many members of the organization that plotted the assassination were Jewish (around 15%, but I can't find a source on that). That's in a nation that's less than 1% ethnically Jewish. Tends to stand out.
I assert that the overwhelming majority of Eastern European Jews had nothing at all to do with any radical ideology.
That's a fair assessment. The more pressing question is whether radical ideologues skewed Jewish.
I know nothing of that. Insofar as I know, they were very capitalist middlemen.
My understanding is they generally lived in small communal settlements in the Pale. Socialism was a way of life. The immigrants skewed younger, though.
Yes, they were God-fearers par excellence.
The cross means nothing to them but the symbol of a religion they're at odds with. Nothing to do with god fearing. By most accounts, they didn't seem particularly religious.
Anyway, the point was, it's a situation that creates some fertile ground for Socialism to take root in America, and seed bearers of the ideology. Organizations like the United Hebrew Trades start popping up. Later on, offshoots of the Bund. Yes, they weren't Marxist in 1880, but that was changing in the 1900s. They found success in textiles, and upward economic mobility, allowing access to education and academic fields.
This is just setting the stage for the Frankfurt School to find success in America, when relocated to Columbia University.
Just establishing a baseline framework. If were not on the same page on this, nothing else I'd say would make sense.
Marxism caught on better in the Pale than most anywhere else, for understandable reasons. Many of the revolutionaries that would go on to kill Tsar Alexander II were of Jewish background. That assassination was the catalyst for the pogroms,with many Eastern European Jews fleeing to America in the 1880-1920s. Particularly New York. They brought with them their socialist and Marxist ideologies, and set up some of the earliest Socialist organizations in America.
Are we still in general agreement?
Many? How many? I am pretty sure I know, but I don't think you do.
Note that terrorism in general was done by the so called Socialist Revolutionaries, who were not Marxist but agrarian socialists.
The Eastern European Jews who fled were, generally, neither socialist nor Marxist. They were very quiet, traditionally religious types. This is actually what gave a massive spur to anti-Semitism, because the highly assimilated Jews of countries like Germany and France, and the German immigrant Jews of America, were suddenly confronted with Jews whom they considered to be beneath them - 'kikes', because they could not sign their name and instead used a circle.
Note that socialism never caught on in America, at least socialism as we know it in Europe, socialism of the Eduard Bernstein (yeah, hah hah hah) variety. Also note that socialism existed in Europe long before the Eastern European Jewish exodus. Europe, which was exporting a lot of its own population to the US at the same time.
No longer.
Okay, you're going to pick hairs, and I'll have to cite Narodnaya Volya Jewish membership (and other Russian revolutionary political organizations), and you'll say only one active jewish assassin, the organization didn't matter, then we'll have to discuss the socialist living conditions Jews were accustomed to, then we'll probably eventually get into whether Jewish Bolshevism was a thing or not... which sounds kind of fun, but I probably won't have time for this can of worms today.
Also, kikels, because they refused to use a mark that looked similar to a cross.
I don't think that was hair-splitting at all. If you say 'many' assassins were Jews, and it's only one, I am pretty sure you are under a misapprehension. I also think you had the causality mixed up a bit. Insofar as Jews were attracted to anti-government movements, it came after the assassination and the pogroms that followed, which were wrongly blamed on Russian government collusion.
Depends on what you want to prove. I assert that the overwhelming majority of Eastern European Jews had nothing at all to do with any radical ideology. Insofar as letting them in was a trojan horse for some rabid ideologues coming in - that is to be expected, which is why I oppose immigration of any kind.
I know nothing of that. Insofar as I know, they were very capitalist middlemen.
Knowing a few things about history, 'Judeo-Bolshevism' makes my hair raise.
Yes, they were God-fearers par excellence. Quite incompatible with the anti-religious doctrines of Marxism/socialism. Those who did join those movements turned their back on their people and culture.
But you go ahead and specify your intermediate conclusion, what you tried to prove with this, and we will accept it arguendo. I am curious as to what conclusion you will then draw from that.
Fair enough. Many members of the organization that plotted the assassination were Jewish (around 15%, but I can't find a source on that). That's in a nation that's less than 1% ethnically Jewish. Tends to stand out.
That's a fair assessment. The more pressing question is whether radical ideologues skewed Jewish.
My understanding is they generally lived in small communal settlements in the Pale. Socialism was a way of life. The immigrants skewed younger, though.
The cross means nothing to them but the symbol of a religion they're at odds with. Nothing to do with god fearing. By most accounts, they didn't seem particularly religious.
Anyway, the point was, it's a situation that creates some fertile ground for Socialism to take root in America, and seed bearers of the ideology. Organizations like the United Hebrew Trades start popping up. Later on, offshoots of the Bund. Yes, they weren't Marxist in 1880, but that was changing in the 1900s. They found success in textiles, and upward economic mobility, allowing access to education and academic fields.
This is just setting the stage for the Frankfurt School to find success in America, when relocated to Columbia University.