I don't think that was hair-splitting at all. If you say 'many' assassins were Jews, and it's only one, I am pretty sure you are under a misapprehension. I also think you had the causality mixed up a bit. Insofar as Jews were attracted to anti-government movements, it came after the assassination and the pogroms that followed, which were wrongly blamed on Russian government collusion.
and I'll have to cite Narodnaya Volya Jewish membership (and other Russian revolutionary political organizations)...the organization didn't matter
Depends on what you want to prove. I assert that the overwhelming majority of Eastern European Jews had nothing at all to do with any radical ideology. Insofar as letting them in was a trojan horse for some rabid ideologues coming in - that is to be expected, which is why I oppose immigration of any kind.
then we'll have to discuss the socialist living conditions Jews were accustomed to
I know nothing of that. Insofar as I know, they were very capitalist middlemen.
then we'll probably eventually get into whether Jewish Bolshevism was a thing or not...
Knowing a few things about history, 'Judeo-Bolshevism' makes my hair raise.
Also, kikels, because they refused to use a mark that looked similar to a cross.
Yes, they were God-fearers par excellence. Quite incompatible with the anti-religious doctrines of Marxism/socialism. Those who did join those movements turned their back on their people and culture.
But you go ahead and specify your intermediate conclusion, what you tried to prove with this, and we will accept it arguendo. I am curious as to what conclusion you will then draw from that.
If you say 'many' assassins were Jews, and it's only one, I am pretty sure you are under a misapprehension.
Fair enough. Many members of the organization that plotted the assassination were Jewish (around 15%, but I can't find a source on that). That's in a nation that's less than 1% ethnically Jewish. Tends to stand out.
I assert that the overwhelming majority of Eastern European Jews had nothing at all to do with any radical ideology.
That's a fair assessment. The more pressing question is whether radical ideologues skewed Jewish.
I know nothing of that. Insofar as I know, they were very capitalist middlemen.
My understanding is they generally lived in small communal settlements in the Pale. Socialism was a way of life. The immigrants skewed younger, though.
Yes, they were God-fearers par excellence.
The cross means nothing to them but the symbol of a religion they're at odds with. Nothing to do with god fearing. By most accounts, they didn't seem particularly religious.
Anyway, the point was, it's a situation that creates some fertile ground for Socialism to take root in America, and seed bearers of the ideology. Organizations like the United Hebrew Trades start popping up. Later on, offshoots of the Bund. Yes, they weren't Marxist in 1880, but that was changing in the 1900s. They found success in textiles, and upward economic mobility, allowing access to education and academic fields.
This is just setting the stage for the Frankfurt School to find success in America, when relocated to Columbia University.
Fair enough. Many members of the organization that plotted the assassination were Jewish (around 15%, but I can't find a source on that). That's in a nation that's less than 1% ethnically Jewish. Tends to stand out.
It seems quite relevant how many members the organization had to begin with, and at what point in time - before or after the assassination. Also: Jews are overwhelmingly urban. What proportion of the organization consisted of urban and rural people (I'm guessing close to 100% the former)? Also, Jews have a hard-on for education in a country that was overwhelmingly illiterate. Also, Jews lived mostly in the Western areas, which were more developed and industrialized - probably a correlation with radical ideas there as well
That's a fair assessment. The more pressing question is whether radical ideologues skewed Jewish.
That is very likely, then and now. Just recently I saw a 'traditionalist' and Stormfag argue to me that libertarianism is bad (which I agree with) and also that Jews are its source. Generally, Jews with their high verbal IQ will be overrepresented in anything that relies on that. Particularly given their history, it's no surprise to me if they would be attracted to a movement that purports to be against 'racism'.
The question is what this means.
My understanding is they generally lived in small communal settlements in the Pale. Socialism was a way of life. The immigrants skewed younger, though.
Kibbutzes? Or it is Kibbutzim?
The cross means nothing to them but the symbol of a religion they're at odds with. Nothing to do with god fearing. By most accounts, they didn't seem particularly religious.
From what I hear, the German Jews did not want to be associated with the Eastern European Jews because of their 'backwardness'.
Anyway, the point was, it's a situation that creates some fertile ground for Socialism to take root in America, and seed bearers of the ideology.
I am not sure how a small minority of a mostly despised group, concentrated in one area, would be that - and not the massive immigration from Europe of mostly poverty-ridden people, who would likely have been more sympathetic to socialism than the average European.
Organizations like the United Hebrew Trades start popping up. Later on, offshoots of the Bund. Yes, they weren't Marxist in 1880, but that was changing in the 1900s. They found success in textiles, and upward economic mobility, allowing access to education and academic fields.
I think this is what introduced them to radical ideas more than anything. First-generation immigrants work themselves into their grave in order to allow their children to go to universities which will then poison the minds of their children.
This is just setting the stage for the Frankfurt School to find success in America, when relocated to Columbia University.
I do not see the sine qua non there. The most success the FS had was with radical students of the 1960s. Was that nonsense really dependent on the arrival of some Jews. Sure, no doubt you can cite a few of those radical students who were Jews, but that has a high level of TheImpossible1 "a woman created this vaccine, so it must be an attempt to kill me" type argumentation.
What came first, the ideology that rejects "the establishment" or the radical anti-establishment student? That would be an interesting thing to look into.
E: this was a silly comment I didn't hat time to extrapolate on earlier. I should give you more effort. apologies. i'll attempt to give you a more reasoned approach tomorrow (if I still recall). we have so much common ground, yet we have vast differences on how we get to it.
I don't think that was hair-splitting at all. If you say 'many' assassins were Jews, and it's only one, I am pretty sure you are under a misapprehension. I also think you had the causality mixed up a bit. Insofar as Jews were attracted to anti-government movements, it came after the assassination and the pogroms that followed, which were wrongly blamed on Russian government collusion.
Depends on what you want to prove. I assert that the overwhelming majority of Eastern European Jews had nothing at all to do with any radical ideology. Insofar as letting them in was a trojan horse for some rabid ideologues coming in - that is to be expected, which is why I oppose immigration of any kind.
I know nothing of that. Insofar as I know, they were very capitalist middlemen.
Knowing a few things about history, 'Judeo-Bolshevism' makes my hair raise.
Yes, they were God-fearers par excellence. Quite incompatible with the anti-religious doctrines of Marxism/socialism. Those who did join those movements turned their back on their people and culture.
But you go ahead and specify your intermediate conclusion, what you tried to prove with this, and we will accept it arguendo. I am curious as to what conclusion you will then draw from that.
Fair enough. Many members of the organization that plotted the assassination were Jewish (around 15%, but I can't find a source on that). That's in a nation that's less than 1% ethnically Jewish. Tends to stand out.
That's a fair assessment. The more pressing question is whether radical ideologues skewed Jewish.
My understanding is they generally lived in small communal settlements in the Pale. Socialism was a way of life. The immigrants skewed younger, though.
The cross means nothing to them but the symbol of a religion they're at odds with. Nothing to do with god fearing. By most accounts, they didn't seem particularly religious.
Anyway, the point was, it's a situation that creates some fertile ground for Socialism to take root in America, and seed bearers of the ideology. Organizations like the United Hebrew Trades start popping up. Later on, offshoots of the Bund. Yes, they weren't Marxist in 1880, but that was changing in the 1900s. They found success in textiles, and upward economic mobility, allowing access to education and academic fields.
This is just setting the stage for the Frankfurt School to find success in America, when relocated to Columbia University.
It seems quite relevant how many members the organization had to begin with, and at what point in time - before or after the assassination. Also: Jews are overwhelmingly urban. What proportion of the organization consisted of urban and rural people (I'm guessing close to 100% the former)? Also, Jews have a hard-on for education in a country that was overwhelmingly illiterate. Also, Jews lived mostly in the Western areas, which were more developed and industrialized - probably a correlation with radical ideas there as well
That is very likely, then and now. Just recently I saw a 'traditionalist' and Stormfag argue to me that libertarianism is bad (which I agree with) and also that Jews are its source. Generally, Jews with their high verbal IQ will be overrepresented in anything that relies on that. Particularly given their history, it's no surprise to me if they would be attracted to a movement that purports to be against 'racism'.
The question is what this means.
Kibbutzes? Or it is Kibbutzim?
From what I hear, the German Jews did not want to be associated with the Eastern European Jews because of their 'backwardness'.
I am not sure how a small minority of a mostly despised group, concentrated in one area, would be that - and not the massive immigration from Europe of mostly poverty-ridden people, who would likely have been more sympathetic to socialism than the average European.
I think this is what introduced them to radical ideas more than anything. First-generation immigrants work themselves into their grave in order to allow their children to go to universities which will then poison the minds of their children.
I do not see the sine qua non there. The most success the FS had was with radical students of the 1960s. Was that nonsense really dependent on the arrival of some Jews. Sure, no doubt you can cite a few of those radical students who were Jews, but that has a high level of TheImpossible1 "a woman created this vaccine, so it must be an attempt to kill me" type argumentation.
What came first, the ideology that rejects "the establishment" or the radical anti-establishment student? That would be an interesting thing to look into.
E: this was a silly comment I didn't hat time to extrapolate on earlier. I should give you more effort. apologies. i'll attempt to give you a more reasoned approach tomorrow (if I still recall). we have so much common ground, yet we have vast differences on how we get to it.