In reality if you believe that there even can be such a thing as a saint, or that Mary was a real person(and if you don't you aren't a Christian anyway), then the logical progression is that they are closer to God than you are, and thus asking them for intercession and advocacy for you makes sense.
The temple veil was torn. Jesus' death was the ultimate intercession for all. To treat His earthly mother as an extra step between us and God is superfluous at best, and downright demeaning to His sacrifice at worst.
Have you never had anyone else say they'll pray for you? Have you never heard of the concept of say, praying as a group? That whole church thing is kind of based around the concept after all.
If your take on this is accurate then why pray at all I suppose, if it's a foregone conclusion?
Or, hear me out, perhaps it isn't unreasonable to ask the honored dead in Heaven to look out for you too.
How in the world do you get "I don't need to talk to God because it's a foregone conclusion" from "I am capable of talking directly to God without needing any other intercession than what He has provided me." What kind of nonsense is that?
There is praying for others, and then there is praying to build your own relationship with Him. You can ask the dead for all the prayers you want. But if you're building statues to pray to them and dedicating your body, soul and deeds to Mary, I'm going to say that you're literally putting these things between you and God. Idolatry.
Maybe, but that's not really the point. If I went up to my friend (or even a priest) and said, "Hey bro, can you pray for me? You are my life and my hope, bro. I offer you my heart and my whole being without reserve, bro. I dedicate all my prayers and deeds to you, bro. My only desire is to do all things through you and for you, bro. So please pray for me."
... well, that would be pretty unusual, wouldn't it?
I'm not trying to hate on my frens here, I'm really not (and frens you guys certainly are). We've all been through a lot together, and I'm very grateful for it. I just think the Protestants have a rock-solid point here.
The temple veil was torn. Jesus' death was the ultimate intercession for all. To treat His earthly mother as an extra step between us and God is superfluous at best, and downright demeaning to His sacrifice at worst.
Nobody said this.
Have you never had anyone else say they'll pray for you? Have you never heard of the concept of say, praying as a group? That whole church thing is kind of based around the concept after all.
If your take on this is accurate then why pray at all I suppose, if it's a foregone conclusion?
Or, hear me out, perhaps it isn't unreasonable to ask the honored dead in Heaven to look out for you too.
How in the world do you get "I don't need to talk to God because it's a foregone conclusion" from "I am capable of talking directly to God without needing any other intercession than what He has provided me." What kind of nonsense is that?
There is praying for others, and then there is praying to build your own relationship with Him. You can ask the dead for all the prayers you want. But if you're building statues to pray to them and dedicating your body, soul and deeds to Mary, I'm going to say that you're literally putting these things between you and God. Idolatry.
Is there? You just derided the concept.
Can the dead pray for the living or not? That's the simplest way I can put this without just outright calling you an idiot.
Maybe, but that's not really the point. If I went up to my friend (or even a priest) and said, "Hey bro, can you pray for me? You are my life and my hope, bro. I offer you my heart and my whole being without reserve, bro. I dedicate all my prayers and deeds to you, bro. My only desire is to do all things through you and for you, bro. So please pray for me."
... well, that would be pretty unusual, wouldn't it?
I'm not trying to hate on my frens here, I'm really not (and frens you guys certainly are). We've all been through a lot together, and I'm very grateful for it. I just think the Protestants have a rock-solid point here.