Iran was an IQ test. You favorite pundits flunked.
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Good of you to question mindless slogans that are repeated endlessly, even without realizing it as I just did.
For me, it means that I support Israel's existence. It's not threatened as of right now, but if it were, I have no problem with sending them aid to ensure their survival. Why? Because it would be chump change for Europe, while being crucial for Israel surviving.
They probably wouldn't be trying to dominate the region and be a hegemon, and they'd make more compromises.
The flaw in that argument is that Iran has existed for 2.5 millennia. Israel was a state that was just created due to an ideological movement. They worked hard on changing my mind in the past 2 weeks, but I still think that was a good thing. Ergo, Zionist.
But what alternative definition of Zionism do you think of?
I would. They can stand on their own or they can die. With the exception that they had proven themselves to be a great ally worthy of helping for our benefit.
But they have never been a great ally. They don't produce anything worthwhile. They goad us into wars constantly. They are the source of nearly all of the ill will that we have received as a nation.
Lots of things would be chump change but that doesn't mean that we can afford to spend chump change on everything that would cost chump change, because then things cease to be chump change.
If Israel's survival is predicated on external support, then Israel isn't going to survive. Because they appear to be completely unable to play nice or make peace with anyone around them.
That is optimistic. The world hegemon is always going to be hated. If not for Israel, people will find another reason.
Source: I find other reasons myself.
But I didn't say to spend on everything that costs chump change. Nor did I tell America to spend anything. I was talking about Europe. I'm embarrassed that we are supporting their aggression, but at the same time, I'd be embarrassed if we stood by and let Israel be destroyed and its people killed.
That is the case because at the moment, they don't have to, due to the backing of the world's hegemon. They were very good at playing nice when they had to - e.g. trying to persuade Syria and Jordan not to join the war in 1967, even though they could conquer valuable lands, giving back the Sinai, the various proposals for a Palestinian state.
Thanks.
And in that vein:
Should we be sending aid money to Ukraine? Palestine? What about all the countries Israel is bombing? Does Lebanon have a right to exist?
DoesDid Syria?Foreign aid is never chump change, because "foreign" is a really fucking big place.
Oooh, boy. The funny part of that argument is...it's a huge Zionist talking point. Zionists say Israel has existed for over two thousand years. The hardcore ones will tell you Israel is the oldest country on the planet. So I guess they're pretty established, by this point.
We'll get to that at the end.
Honest question, why? They're a small country, but per capita they're right up there with all the big boys when it comes to competing for the 'most atrocious actions' award. There very short history started with terrorism, continued with terrorism, and could end with terrorism. They've not only been extremely violent (which can be justified in some scenarios), but also extremely aggressive. They're either starting shit, or massively overreacting. They might very well be the most expansionist country currently on the planet, and they're probably the most "colonialist" in post-war history.
They just seem like kind of a shit country, honestly.
I mean, you said it was based on ideology. That ideology happens to be largely based on ethnic and religious supremacy and ethnonationalism. Which would be one thing - although probably still not something you'd support - if they had a legitimate claim to the land...but you don't get to just settle down somewhere and claim it's yours and was always yours, just because people you share a name with and whose coattails you can ride to Divine Right were there way back in the day.
The whole 'this land was always ours' thing is utter and complete propaganda; they came up with it when they were deciding where and how to put their new country, and realized it would be a convenient argument.
Zionism has made a region that already have a ton of problems even worse and also, as we were talking about, has done a huge amount of damage to other cultures too, like Christianity. "God commands us to bless Israel."
Zionism is a psychotic supremacist cult, and a deeply subversive and expansionist one too.
You won't find a bigger opponent of what the West, along with Israel, did to Syria.
Iran has existed pretty continuously. Its right to exist is not really questioned. Well, some hardcore zionists and neocons do - they want to split up every state into tiny statelets that are perpetually at war with one another so that no one can challenge the hegemon.
They live in a very dangerous neighborhood, and they're not exactly popular as Jews, interlopers and Western colonialists. And they're not only dishing it out, they're also taking it and putting their own lives on the line.
If you look at it from their perspective, which is not the same as accepting it, I think it becomes understandable that they are very aggressive. They, along with their neighbors, have been brutalized by close to continuous war every generation since 1948. It's very traumatic. In their mind, they have offered everything to their neighbors and to the Palestinians, made peace whenever they could, only to be met by the three noes. Part of that narrative is self-serving, of course, no state is an innocent angel - states are Machiavellian entities. I think October 7th sent many over a cliff. "We've been here for 80 years. We've been repeatedly attacked, we gave back land for peace, we tried everything to deal with Palestinians as almost equals, only to be rebuffed, and still we have to go to bomb shelters because of rockets coming from a place that we withdrew from in 2005, and now they've invaded our country and killed many people and taken hundreds of hostages."
Everyone likes to pretend to be all good and moral. But I think that if I were Israeli, and I was in that situation, I wouldn't care much for "the people of Gaza" either. And you might not either. It's easy to judge when you have no skin in the game. We are a fallen and selfish species. Perfection is impossible and we need to minimize harm instead.
Well, they gave up the Sinai, and they've been occupying Gaza and the West Bank since 1967 without ethnically cleansing it or annexing it. The plan was always to give it up in exchange for peace. Even the Golan Heights have periodically been put up in exchange for peace with Syria, though destroying Syria took that off the table.
I agree. But can they buy land and settle there? It brings us to the question of immigration. Hell, I'd say no. But they could, and they did. Note that both the Balfour Declaration and the Israeli Declaration of Independence guaranteed the rights of the native inhabitants.
If I recall correctly, the secular Jews were fine with a country anywhere, but in another example of "the most intolerant wins", the religious Jews would only accept Outremer, so that's where they settled.
Fair enough, but Gaza or whatever. If we should jump in when a people's existence is threatened...Gaza tops the list. Now, you can say Israel is more deserving of active protection, and I can even see the argument from certain perspectives. I don't agree, but I can see the argument. But fact remains Gaza...well it already doesn't exist in its previous form, because of what Israel did there. If we were going to protect existence, we never should have let that happen. And it would have been easy, since it happened with our funding.
But we are. That's what aid to Israel is.
Uh, the leaders of some of the most powerful countries on Earth are actively calling for regime change. Which, yes, is generally pretty much the end of that country's existence in that form, and it will likely be decades of civil war and chaos at that.
Just like Gaza, Iran is also more at risk of no longer existing than Israel is. No matter how old of a country they are.
They should stop acting as interlopers and colonialists. They can't help the Jew thing, but they could vastly improve their image if they were better neighbors. Yeah, it's a dangerous neighborhood. And, no, they're not to blame for that...but they make it a whole lot more dangerous.
And also, once again, they make it more dangerous for my people. If the Middle East was just a 'dangerous neighborhood,' it wouldn't be the US's problem...because it's way over there. They'd have no reason to hate us, if we weren't involved, and we're backing Israel.
It's nowhere near proportional, though. Sometimes Israelis get killed, but their killing a whole lot more people, always.
Oh, for sure. And, if I were to say one thing, I'll say at least their wars are actually in their interest. I get it, although I think it's usually handled pretty monstrously. But, yeah, they take territory, they strengthen their positions and weaken their opposition. I definitely get it. It makes much more sense than the wars America has been engaging in. Also, to their credit...damn, Israel has been successful. Again, don't like what they did...but damn is it impressive that they pull it off, over and over. Even with massive US support, it's still incredible. Even if it's not all them, Israel is certainly a powerhouse.
If they believe that, they're buying their own propaganda. Their leaders don't want peace, have been caught saying that multiple times, do everything they can to sabotage peace movements, and have been caught engaging in and admitting to that as well.
Israelis might want peace. Israel absolutely does not. Or at least who's been running it for ages.
They knew it was coming. But I know you're talking about the people, so I agree; getting attacked of course makes you feel justified in taking the fight back to them. I understand and sympathize. But it's also just yet another example of Israeli leadership being duplicitous and murderous scumbags. At least in my opinion.
True, and I completely agree, but that's also assuming you buy the propaganda. America was attacked on 9/11. I condemned every American response to it. I didn't want blood, and thought the responses were retarded and evil. I think Israel's responses have been retarded and evil too.
We can talk about and understand why they do or think what they do, but that's not diminishing the evil, which is what I was objecting to. If I see something as evil, I'll call it out. I get why people do evil things. It's still evil.
Just to avoid the point of 'we', I spoke of Europe. I'm not saying that you should do anything. Only that I would support us doing something. And not in every case. Of course, this is just my own unrealistic pipe dream. "Humanitarian intervention", in reality, is nothing more than a pretext to advance very corrupt interests.
Yeah, I no longer support that. I did because I thought that Israel couldn't conduct a campaign of retribution & taking the hostages back if they didn't get aid. But if you have the resources to bomb several countries at once, you don't need other countries supporting you.
Leaving aside the civil war and chaos for moment, which is the reason I don't support 'regime change', it wouldn't result in anything real on the ground changing. Iran's population wouldn't change. Only a decapitation of the leadership. On the other hand, if people like Hamas manage to destroy Israel, there would be some very bad consequences for its present population.
While I agree that they're taking it too far, 'being a good neighbor' doesn't help you survive in the Middle East. They have to be tough and ruthless. If being a good person led to good political results, then the world would be ruled by Kienans and not Netanyahus.
Now they're betting that the fear they inspire will outweigh the hatred that they create, Caligula-style "let them hate us, as long as they fear us". I think that in a Realpolitik way, they're probably right - though the Iran strike is so brazen that it might lead other countries to tryt to balance against them. But of course, the US is there to prevent that.
Right, but still. It's the big guy in the arena, who takes some hits but mostly dishes out, as opposed to the guy from the peanut gallery throwing stuff at a fighter. And even the US is that to some extent - your soldiers get killed, after all. I have nothing but contempt for Europeans who demand that everything be messed up everywhere, at no risk to anything or anyone of their own.
I'm actually not so sure about that. Look at what is happening in Syria: they're occupying land, demolishing people's homes and building security positions there. Now, Syria hasn't been a threat to Israel in decades, and even then they were soundly defeated - and they're not likely to ever be a real threat. I don' think this taking of territory is actually in the interests of the Israeli people. Maybe in the interests of the security people, who benefit from endless war and conflict.
But who knows, they seem to have an Al Qaeda/CIA guy in Syria, who is letting it all happen, and who is even going to cede the Golan Heights in exchange for nothing, even though Jolani means man from the Golan.
There have been leaders who have wanted peace, even Netanyahu. Of course, if they pretend that Israel never did anything wrong or that they always wanted peace, they are (probably wilfully) deluding themselves, but an important part of te truth is that and that Arabs have been working themselves in ever greater trouble as in a Chinese fingertrap. I mean, the mere fact that the Gazans now talk wistfully about how great thigns were on October 6, which they earlier called a 'concentration camp', speaks volumes, not? Things can be made so intolerable for people that the merely bad seems good (our leaders have a lot of experience doing that).
If you look between 1994 and 2009, there was a great amount of activity. Of course, there are also people on the other side who don't want peace. As the peace process progressed, Hamas began ever more suicide bombs to try to sabotage it, and it's hard to blame Israelis for thinking "we have all the power here in this situation, and when we try to give them land in exchange for peace, we get blown up".
I don't think they're very different from leadership anywhere else. Leaders being duplicitious and murderous scumbags is unfortunately the norm. They may be more competent, but that's a different matter.
I have no doubt that leaders everywhere would have no problem with their own citizens being killed if it was to their political benefit. We're nothing but cattle to them - useful. I like to think though, that if they let thinkgs like Oct 7 and 9/11 happen, that it would come out somehow.
That is very impressive, particularly because you put your money where your mouth is and don't just hold others to certain standards.
Good for you. But one thing I notice is that you seem to think that Israel or 'Zionists' are somehow uniquely evil. They have more power to do any evil that they want, that's for sure, and maybe that justifies that. But maybe not. How would they act if they were left alone for a change? They're not staging any aggression against Egypt, for example.
(Obviously, it's not me downvoting you, but I think you know that.)