He also demands submission to earthy authority "they do not bear the sword for nothing" demands we "hate what is evil" and to sell cloaks and buy swords.
The Bible lists a positive avalanche of God's enemies, not to mention it's not like he's unaware of who is saved and who is not, there is no "can be saved" as if there was some question. Just because men can't KNOW who is who doesn't make the categories truly ambiguous.
Then, like, right after that, what does he say about living by the sword?
"they do not bear the sword for nothing"
That's Paul for you. I wonder why he, of all people, was trying to establish earthly authority of God? Which is something Jesus definitely didn't strain to talk about a lot.
The Bible lists a positive avalanche of God's enemies
Old Testament or New Testament? Did Jesus die for nothing?
like he's unaware of who is saved and who is not
You ever read the parable of the Lost Sheep? Does it sound like Jesus wants you to feel permanently lost? I can't believe he wants only some souls to go to Heaven.
As tired as all the rest of this is, and trust me, it's tired.
Do you think God fails to get what he wants?
If you do fine, but we don't worship the same God, I'd say that what you worship isn't much of a god at all in that case.
Yes. Do you think God wanted Satan to be evil? If so, why? Do you believe you actually know what God "wants?"
Did God want Eve to eat that apple? If so, why?
Does God want there to be sin in the world? If so, why?
This wasn't nearly as good of a point as you thought it was.
but we don't worship the same God
Oh no. I'm not in your made up club. What of it?
I'd say that what you worship isn't much of a god at all in that case.
Ah, so God wants you to judge my worship, and to denigrate me for it? Yea, you're right, we don't worship the same God then.
Read the story of Job. Carefully. Think that through. "Have I been tricked by an evil angel?" It's more likely that you have than you have not. It reminds me of the villagers in that story, they blamed Job for what had happened to him, and assumed God was punishing him for some unknown reason. Don't you ever think about those people and cry?
What do you actually worship? Earthly power? Or the Holy Spirit?
There's only one. Satan. Everyone else can be forgiven.
This is not entirely true. God hates all things that are antithetical to Him. God is truth, and truth is of God, so things which are antithetical to God are antithetical to truth. The Bible says this many times, explicitly and implicitly. While it's true that, Biblically speaking, all falsehoods and lies are of the devil (John 8:44), people can (and do) hold false beliefs and lies too. That's why we live in sin, because we're imperfect. It's the very reason why Christ had to sacrifice Himself for us, so we could be redeemed in our sin, so our sins could be washed away. Some Biblical passages (ESV) which prove it, and shows what God hates:
Proverbs 6:16-19
"There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers."
Isaiah 61:8
"For I the Lord love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them."
Psalm 5:5
"The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers."
Proverbs 8:13
"The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate."
Psalm 11:5
"The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence."
Romans 12:9
"Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good." (abhor is a synonym for hate)
Zechariah 8:17
"do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, declares the Lord."
Proverbs 12:22
"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight."
Proverbs 13:5
"The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace."
There's more passages (a lot more), but you get the point.
Protestant nonsense. They saw the problems with the Church, then created their own, then invented this theological turd to justify their failure.
Did you never read Romans 13? It explicitly tells us to abide by earthly authorities (government), with the very important caveat, if those authorities abide in God. 1 Peter 2 says the exact same thing.
Romans 13:1-7
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed."
1 Peter 2:13-17
"Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor[c] as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants[d] of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor."
What exactly are you denying here, specifically?
To execute the unredeemed is a failure.
If you really want to make that argument, then you're tacitly suggesting that God is a failure, since everyone that dies without accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior, without repenting, that all of those souls condemned to Hell are a failure on God's part. You can't be more moral than God, so stop trying. Far too many Christians today are trying to invent new sins that we must live by, in a vain attempt to try to be more moral than God, and in so doing, are erecting idols in the place of God, and worshipping at the feet of those idols. Stop doing this. You're sinning, and probably in the worst way possible, by suggesting that you know better than God, while claiming to be Christian.
We are supposed to seek salvation for all, even criminals (the very first Christian man who died was on the cross right next to Jesus), but it's understood that not everyone can be saved, and that it's righteous, condoned, and commanded by God that we enact earthly justice via earthly authorities, lest worse evil proliferate in our presence. The church is provided to bring people to salvation. Government is provided to enact earthly justice. Jesus explicitly talks about the divide and distinction between church and state in Matthew 22:21 when He said
"Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?"...He also tells you to love your enemies. And to pray for them. Otherwise you might be treading up against the first commandment.
True, but look at the words used. Every single time this subject is brought up in the Bible, we're explicitly told to forgive and love "our" enemies, not God's enemies. These passages aren't meant to make us pacifists and masochists, they're meant to help us make peace with people we should be at peace with, especially among our brothers and neighbors, to prevent minor slights and insults from turning into blood feuds and murder. They're meant to facilitate peace, not to allow our enemies to walk all over us, to enslave and kill us, to let evil proliferate and run rampant in our presence. Those things are explicitly told to be punishments from God, Who often allows such things to happen to people (or peoples) who transgress against God, who don't abide in God or truth (this happened to the Israelites and specific tribes numerous times in scripture, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah and the entire earth during the times of Noah).
You're forgetting a fundamental part of God. Scripture isn't the only work of God, and nor is it the greatest. Scripture doesn't answer every single thing, and tell us how to act in ever single circumstance, otherwise it would be infinitely long. It tells us basic things, and how to act generally, and how we can find salvation and faith. When God points to His divinity and power, He doesn't point to scripture. He points to creation. God did exactly this in Job 38, 39, 40, and 41, when Job blasphemed God. God inlaid truth in all of creation. Every single rule of logic, mathematical formula, scientific equation, they're all from and of God. The more we understand truth, the more we understand God and His will.
This is what many modern Christians fail to understand. They think they need a specific Biblical passage to condone or condemn every single thing, to dictate every single action. Most things in life are a matter of wisdom, that we must learn for ourselves. If we abide in truth, we'll be rewarded, and scripture explicitly says as much. By their fruits, you shall know them. This isn't just about how to judge people, but about ideas, philosophies, actions, and behaviors. By the fruits of such things, we will know the thing. Bad fruits stem from false things. Good fruits stem from true things.
You're using scripture to argue a position that ultimately leads to the death of everyone that follows it. You're trying to claim that scripture would completely neuter every Christian, that we're not allowed to enact earthly justice, that we're not allowed to have our own governments, our own laws, punish criminals, that we must allow our enemies to run roughshod over us, our loved ones, our brothers, our neighbors, everyone and everything we love, to let evil persist in our presence. God would never tell us to do such a thing. To let evil destroy everyone and everything we love is inherently Satanic.
Do not forget that Satan quotes scripture. Satan did exactly that to tempt Jesus in Matthew 4. True things, if taken out of context, can be twisted toward evil. Do not use scripture to advocate for evil. Espouse the totality of truth, or not at all. It's not like most of these things are difficult to grasp, either. No normal man would ever advocate for complete submission to our enemies, to evil, and to let evil overcome and destroy all of us, because it's logically unsound and destructive. The fruits of that path are only bad, which is why it's evil.
that we're not allowed to enact earthly justice, that we're not allowed to have our own governments, our own laws, punish criminals, that we must allow our enemies to run roughshod over us
You're twisting my words. And you know it. You write all of this, to what, drown me in your piety, and then you do this to me?
I told you that the death penalty without salvation of that sinner first is against God, which it clearly is, I didn't tell you punishment of criminals is wrong or shouldn't be done. You've invented this lie to serve yourself.
I told you that pretending your government is ordained by God is against God, which it clearly is, I didn't tell you that having a government to maintain order is wrong or shouldn't be done. You've again invented this lie to serve yourself.
Do not forget that Satan quotes scripture.
He also likes to twist words and is eager to confuse and beguile with needless complexity.
And you know it. You write all of this, to what, drown me in your piety, and then you do this to me?
Do what to you? Advocate the truth? I don't wish to bludgeon you with anything. I only seek truth, and that's what I espouse. The errors I see committed in the modern Christian church, which I highlighted above, are so common that it's led to most Western Christians worshipping idols and becoming apostate. Even if you don't believe in those false teachings, other people here may, and the importance is high enough to enumerate and explain it, in detail.
I told you that the death penalty without salvation of that sinner first is against God, which it clearly is, I didn't tell you punishment of criminals is wrong or shouldn't be done. You've invented this lie to serve yourself.
I extrapolated your position in a way in which you didn't like, because your position is necessarily false. Not everyone can be saved. We should try to save everyone, but we know we can't. Your position necessarily requires you to place blame and failure upon God, which we cannot do. If God is perfect, then God is blameless, thus your position is in error.
Scripture even tells us that not everyone will be saved. Jesus even told us to shake the dust off our feet if a person, a home, or an entire city rejects us and the Gospel, that God will be more harsh on them than He was on Sodom and Gomorrah.
Should we try to save criminals, spiritually (not in the hippy modern use of the term)? Yes. Can we save all of them? No. Even if criminals do accept Jesus as their savior and repent of their sins, we are still obligated to punish them for their crimes.
I told you that pretending your government is ordained by God is against God, which it clearly is, I didn't tell you that having a government to maintain order is wrong or shouldn't be done. You've again invented this lie to serve yourself.
Most modern governments are antithetical to God. In that, I agree. Where did I lie? I explored the issue at hand, not necessarily suggesting you disagreed, but that this subject is important enough to fully explore. You do know that you can say "I agree" with things, without thinking the person saying it is suggesting they believe you disagree.
He also likes to twist words and is eager to confuse and beguile with needless complexity.
True. Why do you think I'm trying to manipulate you, though? What have I said is false? What conclusion have I made that's false?
I don't write things at length to drown people in bullshit, but to fully explore things. Modern social media and instant gratification have wildly manipulated people into thinking that truth is only true if it can fit in a meme. They think complex ideas can be boiled down to a single sentence, or what can fit on a bumper sticker. Do not confuse brevity for wit, or truth, or length for truth, either. Only what is true, is true, regardless of length.
There's only one. Satan. Everyone else can be forgiven.
Protestant nonsense. They saw the problems with the Church, then created their own, then invented this theological turd to justify their failure.
To execute the unredeemed is a failure.
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?"
He also tells you to love your enemies. And to pray for them. Otherwise you might be treading up against the first commandment.
He also demands submission to earthy authority "they do not bear the sword for nothing" demands we "hate what is evil" and to sell cloaks and buy swords.
The Bible lists a positive avalanche of God's enemies, not to mention it's not like he's unaware of who is saved and who is not, there is no "can be saved" as if there was some question. Just because men can't KNOW who is who doesn't make the categories truly ambiguous.
Then, like, right after that, what does he say about living by the sword?
That's Paul for you. I wonder why he, of all people, was trying to establish earthly authority of God? Which is something Jesus definitely didn't strain to talk about a lot.
Old Testament or New Testament? Did Jesus die for nothing?
You ever read the parable of the Lost Sheep? Does it sound like Jesus wants you to feel permanently lost? I can't believe he wants only some souls to go to Heaven.
As tired as all the rest of this is, and trust me, it's tired.
Do you think God fails to get what he wants? If you do fine, but we don't worship the same God, I'd say that what you worship isn't much of a god at all in that case.
Yes. Do you think God wanted Satan to be evil? If so, why? Do you believe you actually know what God "wants?"
Did God want Eve to eat that apple? If so, why?
Does God want there to be sin in the world? If so, why?
This wasn't nearly as good of a point as you thought it was.
Oh no. I'm not in your made up club. What of it?
Ah, so God wants you to judge my worship, and to denigrate me for it? Yea, you're right, we don't worship the same God then.
Read the story of Job. Carefully. Think that through. "Have I been tricked by an evil angel?" It's more likely that you have than you have not. It reminds me of the villagers in that story, they blamed Job for what had happened to him, and assumed God was punishing him for some unknown reason. Don't you ever think about those people and cry?
What do you actually worship? Earthly power? Or the Holy Spirit?
This is not entirely true. God hates all things that are antithetical to Him. God is truth, and truth is of God, so things which are antithetical to God are antithetical to truth. The Bible says this many times, explicitly and implicitly. While it's true that, Biblically speaking, all falsehoods and lies are of the devil (John 8:44), people can (and do) hold false beliefs and lies too. That's why we live in sin, because we're imperfect. It's the very reason why Christ had to sacrifice Himself for us, so we could be redeemed in our sin, so our sins could be washed away. Some Biblical passages (ESV) which prove it, and shows what God hates:
Proverbs 6:16-19
"There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers."
Isaiah 61:8
"For I the Lord love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them."
Psalm 5:5
"The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers."
Proverbs 8:13
"The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate."
Psalm 11:5
"The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence."
Romans 12:9
"Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good." (abhor is a synonym for hate)
Zechariah 8:17
"do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, declares the Lord."
Proverbs 12:22
"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight."
Proverbs 13:5
"The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace."
There's more passages (a lot more), but you get the point.
Did you never read Romans 13? It explicitly tells us to abide by earthly authorities (government), with the very important caveat, if those authorities abide in God. 1 Peter 2 says the exact same thing.
Romans 13:1-7
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed."
1 Peter 2:13-17
"Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor[c] as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants[d] of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor."
What exactly are you denying here, specifically?
If you really want to make that argument, then you're tacitly suggesting that God is a failure, since everyone that dies without accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior, without repenting, that all of those souls condemned to Hell are a failure on God's part. You can't be more moral than God, so stop trying. Far too many Christians today are trying to invent new sins that we must live by, in a vain attempt to try to be more moral than God, and in so doing, are erecting idols in the place of God, and worshipping at the feet of those idols. Stop doing this. You're sinning, and probably in the worst way possible, by suggesting that you know better than God, while claiming to be Christian.
We are supposed to seek salvation for all, even criminals (the very first Christian man who died was on the cross right next to Jesus), but it's understood that not everyone can be saved, and that it's righteous, condoned, and commanded by God that we enact earthly justice via earthly authorities, lest worse evil proliferate in our presence. The church is provided to bring people to salvation. Government is provided to enact earthly justice. Jesus explicitly talks about the divide and distinction between church and state in Matthew 22:21 when He said "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
True, but look at the words used. Every single time this subject is brought up in the Bible, we're explicitly told to forgive and love "our" enemies, not God's enemies. These passages aren't meant to make us pacifists and masochists, they're meant to help us make peace with people we should be at peace with, especially among our brothers and neighbors, to prevent minor slights and insults from turning into blood feuds and murder. They're meant to facilitate peace, not to allow our enemies to walk all over us, to enslave and kill us, to let evil proliferate and run rampant in our presence. Those things are explicitly told to be punishments from God, Who often allows such things to happen to people (or peoples) who transgress against God, who don't abide in God or truth (this happened to the Israelites and specific tribes numerous times in scripture, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah and the entire earth during the times of Noah).
You're forgetting a fundamental part of God. Scripture isn't the only work of God, and nor is it the greatest. Scripture doesn't answer every single thing, and tell us how to act in ever single circumstance, otherwise it would be infinitely long. It tells us basic things, and how to act generally, and how we can find salvation and faith. When God points to His divinity and power, He doesn't point to scripture. He points to creation. God did exactly this in Job 38, 39, 40, and 41, when Job blasphemed God. God inlaid truth in all of creation. Every single rule of logic, mathematical formula, scientific equation, they're all from and of God. The more we understand truth, the more we understand God and His will.
This is what many modern Christians fail to understand. They think they need a specific Biblical passage to condone or condemn every single thing, to dictate every single action. Most things in life are a matter of wisdom, that we must learn for ourselves. If we abide in truth, we'll be rewarded, and scripture explicitly says as much. By their fruits, you shall know them. This isn't just about how to judge people, but about ideas, philosophies, actions, and behaviors. By the fruits of such things, we will know the thing. Bad fruits stem from false things. Good fruits stem from true things.
You're using scripture to argue a position that ultimately leads to the death of everyone that follows it. You're trying to claim that scripture would completely neuter every Christian, that we're not allowed to enact earthly justice, that we're not allowed to have our own governments, our own laws, punish criminals, that we must allow our enemies to run roughshod over us, our loved ones, our brothers, our neighbors, everyone and everything we love, to let evil persist in our presence. God would never tell us to do such a thing. To let evil destroy everyone and everything we love is inherently Satanic.
Do not forget that Satan quotes scripture. Satan did exactly that to tempt Jesus in Matthew 4. True things, if taken out of context, can be twisted toward evil. Do not use scripture to advocate for evil. Espouse the totality of truth, or not at all. It's not like most of these things are difficult to grasp, either. No normal man would ever advocate for complete submission to our enemies, to evil, and to let evil overcome and destroy all of us, because it's logically unsound and destructive. The fruits of that path are only bad, which is why it's evil.
You're twisting my words. And you know it. You write all of this, to what, drown me in your piety, and then you do this to me?
I told you that the death penalty without salvation of that sinner first is against God, which it clearly is, I didn't tell you punishment of criminals is wrong or shouldn't be done. You've invented this lie to serve yourself.
I told you that pretending your government is ordained by God is against God, which it clearly is, I didn't tell you that having a government to maintain order is wrong or shouldn't be done. You've again invented this lie to serve yourself.
He also likes to twist words and is eager to confuse and beguile with needless complexity.
If I am, I apologize.
Do what to you? Advocate the truth? I don't wish to bludgeon you with anything. I only seek truth, and that's what I espouse. The errors I see committed in the modern Christian church, which I highlighted above, are so common that it's led to most Western Christians worshipping idols and becoming apostate. Even if you don't believe in those false teachings, other people here may, and the importance is high enough to enumerate and explain it, in detail.
I extrapolated your position in a way in which you didn't like, because your position is necessarily false. Not everyone can be saved. We should try to save everyone, but we know we can't. Your position necessarily requires you to place blame and failure upon God, which we cannot do. If God is perfect, then God is blameless, thus your position is in error.
Scripture even tells us that not everyone will be saved. Jesus even told us to shake the dust off our feet if a person, a home, or an entire city rejects us and the Gospel, that God will be more harsh on them than He was on Sodom and Gomorrah.
Should we try to save criminals, spiritually (not in the hippy modern use of the term)? Yes. Can we save all of them? No. Even if criminals do accept Jesus as their savior and repent of their sins, we are still obligated to punish them for their crimes.
Most modern governments are antithetical to God. In that, I agree. Where did I lie? I explored the issue at hand, not necessarily suggesting you disagreed, but that this subject is important enough to fully explore. You do know that you can say "I agree" with things, without thinking the person saying it is suggesting they believe you disagree.
True. Why do you think I'm trying to manipulate you, though? What have I said is false? What conclusion have I made that's false?
I don't write things at length to drown people in bullshit, but to fully explore things. Modern social media and instant gratification have wildly manipulated people into thinking that truth is only true if it can fit in a meme. They think complex ideas can be boiled down to a single sentence, or what can fit on a bumper sticker. Do not confuse brevity for wit, or truth, or length for truth, either. Only what is true, is true, regardless of length.