Reminder on why the left wins and conservatives are born and bred to lose
(media.kotakuinaction2.win)
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Subversion does not require lying. It simply requires patience, persistence, and recognizing opportunities. I'm not saying that you wait for a 100% chance, I'm saying you don't lie, which could involve serious legal actions, and blowing up the trail.
To subvert you first have to pretend to agree with the people you intend to try and change from within. If you're not lying you're not subverting, you're just open opposition.
And I'm saying if you can lie smart, where there is negligible chance of serious repercussions, then do it. If you want them to wait until there's no chance of repercussions at all, that would be what I consider waiting for a 100% chance.
That's just not true: you don't have to lie to subvert. You can just agree on specific instances without ever stating your intent to change a larger structure or outcome, nor do you have have to point any of that out. In fact, the most effective subversion is when you don't lie, you never lie, and your opponent comes to your position and takes the action for you without ever feeling that they have been subverted.
Perfect subversion is effectively conversion. Almost perfect subversion is persuasion. And good subversion is to appear as an honorable and respectable alternative. Poor subversion is simple deception. The worst form of subversion is gaslighting.
Eh, semantics I guess. I don't see any need to rebrand persuasion as subversion and what I have always understood as subversion only starts where your scale hits deception. Specifically the kind of deception where you pretend to agree with someone with the intent to undermine their beliefs when they let their guard down.