I think I hate pastors. I learn one new Biblical truth every couple years, and I'm way ahead of all the pastors I've ever met, save one.
To "be made in God's image" actually means something specific. It's a designation that you are an Image-bearer, a creature designed to spread God's dominion over creation. It's sort of like being a standard-bearer for God.
It doesn't mean that you're perfect no matter what you do. Interpreting it that was is a clear cut case of satanic inversion.
This is a satanic denial of the need to change and repent for forgiveness. If they're fine just as they are, then nothing is a sin and there is no need for contrition.
It's just "do what thou wilt" written differently. Because in actual Christian doctrine the wheat will be separated from the chaff.
Can I ask how do you learn Biblical truth? I've been very recently trying to become religious after a long time of being agnostic and if you have books to recommend I appreciate it.
So far I've just been going thru the Bible and going to church, unfortunately not every Sunday.
First of all, study the Bible. A little bit a day, reading good, old, based study guides. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Then, start getting into the Church fathers and older academics. Aquinas, C. S. Lewis, Spurgeon, and some of the newer Orthodox writers (Josiah Trenham is a treat to listen to).
Aquinas. His writing is a bit much to approach directly. But if you're looking for an intellectual approach, IRL I recommend to people Edward Fesser's "The Last Superstition" or "Aquinas". The first a broad response to the "New Atheists" covering a wider intellectual tradition, and the latter more focused on Aquinas himself. To warn you, I have been (accurately) accused of popery, so if that bothers you: CS Lewis.
Listen to bible audiobook, preferably a non-dramatic reading, while doing other stuff. Just make it a habit. The old testament is great to fall asleep to.
Also look into Catholicism and Orthodoxy. No matter how you feel about the current pope the fact that the Church is a continuation of the one founded by Christ's apostles is something worthy.
Faith doesn't seem like something that you reason your way into. As long as you aren't actively rejecting it, then it will eventually find you. One day you will say "I believe" and it won't feel silly anymore.
Also look into Catholicism and Orthodoxy. No matter how you feel about the current pope the fact that the Church is a continuation of the one founded by Christ's apostles is something worthy.
@Galean. If you find yourself drawn to the traditions of the orthodox, rather than Catholicism know this:
About 98% of the Catholic Church is novus ordo, the new 60/70s mass in English/whatever language is spoken locally. 1% is 'the Extraordinary Form/TLM/Tridentine Mass', the old latin form (their high masses are the ones with Gregorian chants and incense, all the good stuff), and its experiencing a revival despite this pope's stance. The final 1% is 'the eastern rites', these are essentially orthodox and easterners (23 church communities, 5 other rites) who have come back into communion with Rome. So if you're drawn to their traditions, depending where you are in the world, it might be possible to have your cake and eat it too.
There's a few other rare ones too of course. There's now a very new 'ordinariate' form, which is essentially anglicans/church of englanders returning to communion with rome.
I had a long comment that wasn't posting. Copying into a thread here:
The Bible: Keep reading the Bible. At some point, read it cover to cover. Get a couple different translations. NIV has a reputation for being kind of retarded. A pastor liked to joke that NIV meant "Needed in Vineyard." I like the NKJV and have repeatedly seen ESV recommended. It's worth having an NIV handy to see where some popular misconceptions are reinforced. A very loose rule of thumb for a good translation: in the OT, the word "gods" should not be translated with scare quotes or to "spirits" or "elders" (see Heiser below). In the NT, "sons" should not be translated "sons and daughters" or "children." Christ inviting us to be sons of God has a specific connotation of princedom: Adam and his descendants were to be God's administration within creation. We are not just children, but princes, sons of the King.
C.S. Lewis: Lewis is probably the easiest to get in to. Mere Christianity is a great place to start, but almost all of his writing is insightful.
Michael Heiser:Unseen Realm is my current kick. I'm trying to get everyone I know to read it. The density of information is incredible. Almost every chapter in that book is a revelation. Here's a seminar he did, but it really only highlights the topics. The book goes into detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jx1ZtZlcCk
After those three, the rest come in no particular order:
Aquinas: A bit more of a challenging read, but up there with Lewis. I've read (and can recommend) his Compendium.
Jordan Peterson's Genesis Lectures: I found these insightful from a quasi-secular point of view. Keep in mind that the man spent a long time claiming he was a "Christian" who believed in a "life-force" God and as soon as he started to come around to a wilful God, his life fell apart. Still, his read on Cain & Abel in particular floored me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w
Doug Wilson: I don't listen to a lot of his stuff, mostly because I'm not much for podcasts. What I have heard, he appears to be the genuine article. Tellingly, the world hates him for how he lives his belief. Most pastors should cultivate community like he does. https://dougwils.com
Misc.: Kierkeegard's Fear and Trembling: for a book that I ended up skimming in certain sections, it made an impact on me. A beautiful expression of awe at how terrifying the faith of Abraham must have been.
Unraveling the End by John Noe: I strongly recommend not getting caught up in endtimes nonsense. My personal belief is that if we were intended to be knowledgeable about what is to come, God would have seen that it's explicitly laid out. That said, this is an interesting primer on various endtime views.
A lot of what I find insightful is because of my own deficiencies growing up in an American Protestant environment, where Biblical scholarship is rather unheard of. If you don't have the same background, you may not find all of this stuff as mind-blowing as I did.
Good luck out there, brother. Let me know if I can help.
Also, recognize how the modern "church" ritual functions.
Find a church that feels right. No female pastors, no fags. Ideally, the pastor should have a large family and the church should be involved in the community. The music service should be enjoyable and not forced, akward, or prerecorded. The awkwardness of going to a new church doesn't count as "feeling off."
The church service is for music and receiving a surface-level message. Sunday school (or whatever your church calls it) is for learning. It's unfortunately up to you to find out what your church offers that could help you grow. It probably won't be 'in church.' Which is fine, church is your time to praise God. But odds are you won't be taking notes. Realize that going in.
The Bible: Keep reading the Bible. At some point, read it cover to cover. Get a couple different translations. NIV has a reputation for being kind of retarded. A pastor liked to joke that NIV meant "Needed in Vineyard." I like the NKJV and have repeatedly seen ESV recommended. It's worth having an NIV handy to see where some popular misconceptions are reinforced. A very loose rule of thumb: in the OT, the word "gods" should not be translated with scare quotes or to "spirits" or "elders" (see Heiser below). In the NT, "sons" should not be translated "sons and daughters" or "children." Christ inviting us to be sons of God has a specific connotation of princedom: Adam and his descendants were to be God's administration within creation. We are not just children, but princes, sons of the King.
C.S. Lewis: Lewis is probably the easiest to get in to. Mere Christianity is a great place to start, but almost all of his writing is insightful.
Michael Heiser:Unseen Realm is my current kick. I'm trying to get everyone I know to read it. The density of information is incredible. Almost every chapter in that book is a revelation. Here's a seminar he did, but it really only highlights the topics. The book goes into detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jx1ZtZlcCk
After those three, the rest come in no particular order:
Aquinas: A bit more of a challenging read, but up there with Lewis. I've read (and can recommend) his Compendium.
Jordan Peterson's Genesis Lectures: I found these insightful from a quasi-secular point of view. Keep in mind that the man spent a long time claiming he was a "Christian" who believed in a "life-force" God and as soon as he started to come around to a wilful God, his life fell apart. Still, his read on Cain & Abel in particular floored me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w
Doug Wilson: I don't listen to a lot of his stuff, mostly because I'm not much for podcasts. What I have heard, he appears to be the genuine article. Tellingly, the world hates him for how he lives his belief. Most pastors should cultivate community like he does.
https://dougwils.com
Misc.:
Kierkeegard's Fear and Trembling: for a book that I ended up skimming in certain sections, it made an impact on me. A beautiful expression of awe at how terrifying the faith of Abraham must have been.
Unraveling the End by John Noe: I strongly recommend not getting caught up in endtimes nonsense. My personal belief is that if we were intended to be knowledgeable about what is to come, God would have seen that it's explicitly laid out. That said, this is an interesting primer on various endtime views.
A lot of what I find insightful is because of my own deficiencies growing up in an American Protestant environment, where Biblical scholarship is rather unheard of. If you don't have the same background, you may not find all of this stuff as mind-blowing as I did.
Good luck out there, brother. Let me know if I can help.
Also, reading philosophy books OUTSIDE the Bible is important. Because a lot of people read the Bible and just don't get it. None of it makes sense. It's because it's for people seeking answers AFTER they've already asked the hard questions.
Personally speaking, the Bible made a lot more sense after reading through
Aristotle
Plato
Epictetus
Thomas Paine
Henry David Thoreau
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Oscar Wilde
Thomas Henry Huxley
Arthur Schopenhauer
Rene Descartes
David Hume
Immanuel Kant
Jean-Paul Sartre
Friedrich Nietzsche
Søren Kierkegaard
Ludwig Wittgenstein
Having a basic understanding of what sort of questions and philosophical hurdles they faced, as well as how they arrived at their own understanding of things, it helps preface what you'll eventually encounter with the Bible. Because one thing I've always told people over the years who say that they don't get philosophy is that they should start with the Greek philosophers, work through the English, French and then German philosophers, and then finally finish with the Bible.
The reason for that is because what I learned is that you'll have all your questions posed reading through each of the works of the classic philosophers first, but you'll get almost all of your answers reading through the Bible last.
I have found a lot of interesting points from examining the words of Christ in the Gospels from the perspective of Christ as astoundingly informed on matters of (classical Jewish) faith, as seen in His first public outing at the temple.
For example, when the Almighty designated mankind stewards of his creation, the meaning of that is more strongly defined in the parable of the Talents - the stewards who did not leverage their charge to create something greater than what they were given were condemned.
To "be made in God's image" actually means something specific. It's a designation that you are an Image-bearer, a creature designed to spread God's dominion over creation. It's sort of like being a standard-bearer for God.
It doesn't mean that you're perfect no matter what you do. Interpreting it that was is a clear cut case of satanic inversion.
I've only seen the "perfect the way you are" heresy online, thankfully. But make no mistake, seminary is suffering the same collapse as general education.
I'm really into kingdom theology right now, specifically ongoing spiritual warfare and the need to build communities. I tried bringing the community aspect up with my current pastor (an "America is the greatest country on earth" boomer) and he more or less dismissed it. He said every few years in state-wide pastors conference, someone brings that up and everyone else shoots it down because building an interdependent community with a semblance of independence from the world doesn't feel "churchy" enough. The other pastors are afraid they'd lose congregations.
Meanwhile, those same congregations have not a single member under 40. It's a complete failure to pass on a functioning system, let alone spread the Kingdom. I'm starting to resent pastors as a class for their failures.
I help with the youth group at church and they are bombarded with this stuff at school and other places. A lot of younger ppl will say “God loves everyone”. The idea that everything must be condoned is growing rabidly in the church.
God does love everyone--that doesn't preclude him from being dissapointed or meting out justice. A father who disciplines a child doesn't stop loving his child for the duration of the discipline. A father, a good one, attempts to raise his child well because of love for his child, not despite it.
It is a mark of how poorly many children have been raised that they think "God loves me" is a justification to make no attempt at betterment--or that Gods love (being infinite) somehow precludes them from also being sinful.
I think I hate pastors. I learn one new Biblical truth every couple years, and I'm way ahead of all the pastors I've ever met, save one.
To "be made in God's image" actually means something specific. It's a designation that you are an Image-bearer, a creature designed to spread God's dominion over creation. It's sort of like being a standard-bearer for God.
It doesn't mean that you're perfect no matter what you do. Interpreting it that was is a clear cut case of satanic inversion.
To quote u/Kaarous from a while back,
Can I ask how do you learn Biblical truth? I've been very recently trying to become religious after a long time of being agnostic and if you have books to recommend I appreciate it. So far I've just been going thru the Bible and going to church, unfortunately not every Sunday.
First of all, study the Bible. A little bit a day, reading good, old, based study guides. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Then, start getting into the Church fathers and older academics. Aquinas, C. S. Lewis, Spurgeon, and some of the newer Orthodox writers (Josiah Trenham is a treat to listen to).
Aquinas. His writing is a bit much to approach directly. But if you're looking for an intellectual approach, IRL I recommend to people Edward Fesser's "The Last Superstition" or "Aquinas". The first a broad response to the "New Atheists" covering a wider intellectual tradition, and the latter more focused on Aquinas himself. To warn you, I have been (accurately) accused of popery, so if that bothers you: CS Lewis.
Edit: I recommend Lewis either way really. This channel is fun: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw-kYN6wWXWDyp_lB0wnlxw
Keep at it. As he said Aquinas. Also St Augustine. Check out CS Lewis books as well. Like Mere Christianity
Thank you
Listen to bible audiobook, preferably a non-dramatic reading, while doing other stuff. Just make it a habit. The old testament is great to fall asleep to.
Also look into Catholicism and Orthodoxy. No matter how you feel about the current pope the fact that the Church is a continuation of the one founded by Christ's apostles is something worthy.
Faith doesn't seem like something that you reason your way into. As long as you aren't actively rejecting it, then it will eventually find you. One day you will say "I believe" and it won't feel silly anymore.
I listen to David Suchet. I'm a big fan of his Poirot and I was pleasantly surprised to find out you can listen to the Bible read by him.
@Galean. If you find yourself drawn to the traditions of the orthodox, rather than Catholicism know this:
About 98% of the Catholic Church is novus ordo, the new 60/70s mass in English/whatever language is spoken locally. 1% is 'the Extraordinary Form/TLM/Tridentine Mass', the old latin form (their high masses are the ones with Gregorian chants and incense, all the good stuff), and its experiencing a revival despite this pope's stance. The final 1% is 'the eastern rites', these are essentially orthodox and easterners (23 church communities, 5 other rites) who have come back into communion with Rome. So if you're drawn to their traditions, depending where you are in the world, it might be possible to have your cake and eat it too.
There's a few other rare ones too of course. There's now a very new 'ordinariate' form, which is essentially anglicans/church of englanders returning to communion with rome.
I had a long comment that wasn't posting. Copying into a thread here:
The Bible: Keep reading the Bible. At some point, read it cover to cover. Get a couple different translations. NIV has a reputation for being kind of retarded. A pastor liked to joke that NIV meant "Needed in Vineyard." I like the NKJV and have repeatedly seen ESV recommended. It's worth having an NIV handy to see where some popular misconceptions are reinforced. A very loose rule of thumb for a good translation: in the OT, the word "gods" should not be translated with scare quotes or to "spirits" or "elders" (see Heiser below). In the NT, "sons" should not be translated "sons and daughters" or "children." Christ inviting us to be sons of God has a specific connotation of princedom: Adam and his descendants were to be God's administration within creation. We are not just children, but princes, sons of the King.
C.S. Lewis: Lewis is probably the easiest to get in to. Mere Christianity is a great place to start, but almost all of his writing is insightful.
Michael Heiser: Unseen Realm is my current kick. I'm trying to get everyone I know to read it. The density of information is incredible. Almost every chapter in that book is a revelation. Here's a seminar he did, but it really only highlights the topics. The book goes into detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jx1ZtZlcCk
After those three, the rest come in no particular order:
Aquinas: A bit more of a challenging read, but up there with Lewis. I've read (and can recommend) his Compendium.
Jordan Peterson's Genesis Lectures: I found these insightful from a quasi-secular point of view. Keep in mind that the man spent a long time claiming he was a "Christian" who believed in a "life-force" God and as soon as he started to come around to a wilful God, his life fell apart. Still, his read on Cain & Abel in particular floored me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w
I haven't watched his Exodus series, but I somehow (((doubt))) it will be as good: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmhG1VdOO49/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Doug Wilson: I don't listen to a lot of his stuff, mostly because I'm not much for podcasts. What I have heard, he appears to be the genuine article. Tellingly, the world hates him for how he lives his belief. Most pastors should cultivate community like he does. https://dougwils.com
Misc.: Kierkeegard's Fear and Trembling: for a book that I ended up skimming in certain sections, it made an impact on me. A beautiful expression of awe at how terrifying the faith of Abraham must have been.
Unraveling the End by John Noe: I strongly recommend not getting caught up in endtimes nonsense. My personal belief is that if we were intended to be knowledgeable about what is to come, God would have seen that it's explicitly laid out. That said, this is an interesting primer on various endtime views.
A lot of what I find insightful is because of my own deficiencies growing up in an American Protestant environment, where Biblical scholarship is rather unheard of. If you don't have the same background, you may not find all of this stuff as mind-blowing as I did.
Good luck out there, brother. Let me know if I can help.
Also, recognize how the modern "church" ritual functions.
Find a church that feels right. No female pastors, no fags. Ideally, the pastor should have a large family and the church should be involved in the community. The music service should be enjoyable and not forced, akward, or prerecorded. The awkwardness of going to a new church doesn't count as "feeling off."
The church service is for music and receiving a surface-level message. Sunday school (or whatever your church calls it) is for learning. It's unfortunately up to you to find out what your church offers that could help you grow. It probably won't be 'in church.' Which is fine, church is your time to praise God. But odds are you won't be taking notes. Realize that going in.
The Bible: Keep reading the Bible. At some point, read it cover to cover. Get a couple different translations. NIV has a reputation for being kind of retarded. A pastor liked to joke that NIV meant "Needed in Vineyard." I like the NKJV and have repeatedly seen ESV recommended. It's worth having an NIV handy to see where some popular misconceptions are reinforced. A very loose rule of thumb: in the OT, the word "gods" should not be translated with scare quotes or to "spirits" or "elders" (see Heiser below). In the NT, "sons" should not be translated "sons and daughters" or "children." Christ inviting us to be sons of God has a specific connotation of princedom: Adam and his descendants were to be God's administration within creation. We are not just children, but princes, sons of the King.
C.S. Lewis: Lewis is probably the easiest to get in to. Mere Christianity is a great place to start, but almost all of his writing is insightful.
Michael Heiser: Unseen Realm is my current kick. I'm trying to get everyone I know to read it. The density of information is incredible. Almost every chapter in that book is a revelation. Here's a seminar he did, but it really only highlights the topics. The book goes into detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jx1ZtZlcCk
After those three, the rest come in no particular order:
Aquinas: A bit more of a challenging read, but up there with Lewis. I've read (and can recommend) his Compendium.
Jordan Peterson's Genesis Lectures: I found these insightful from a quasi-secular point of view. Keep in mind that the man spent a long time claiming he was a "Christian" who believed in a "life-force" God and as soon as he started to come around to a wilful God, his life fell apart. Still, his read on Cain & Abel in particular floored me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w
I haven't watched his Exodus series, but I somehow (((doubt))) it will be as good: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmhG1VdOO49/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Doug Wilson: I don't listen to a lot of his stuff, mostly because I'm not much for podcasts. What I have heard, he appears to be the genuine article. Tellingly, the world hates him for how he lives his belief. Most pastors should cultivate community like he does. https://dougwils.com
Misc.: Kierkeegard's Fear and Trembling: for a book that I ended up skimming in certain sections, it made an impact on me. A beautiful expression of awe at how terrifying the faith of Abraham must have been.
Unraveling the End by John Noe: I strongly recommend not getting caught up in endtimes nonsense. My personal belief is that if we were intended to be knowledgeable about what is to come, God would have seen that it's explicitly laid out. That said, this is an interesting primer on various endtime views.
A lot of what I find insightful is because of my own deficiencies growing up in an American Protestant environment, where Biblical scholarship is rather unheard of. If you don't have the same background, you may not find all of this stuff as mind-blowing as I did.
Good luck out there, brother. Let me know if I can help.
Also, reading philosophy books OUTSIDE the Bible is important. Because a lot of people read the Bible and just don't get it. None of it makes sense. It's because it's for people seeking answers AFTER they've already asked the hard questions.
Personally speaking, the Bible made a lot more sense after reading through
Having a basic understanding of what sort of questions and philosophical hurdles they faced, as well as how they arrived at their own understanding of things, it helps preface what you'll eventually encounter with the Bible. Because one thing I've always told people over the years who say that they don't get philosophy is that they should start with the Greek philosophers, work through the English, French and then German philosophers, and then finally finish with the Bible.
The reason for that is because what I learned is that you'll have all your questions posed reading through each of the works of the classic philosophers first, but you'll get almost all of your answers reading through the Bible last.
I have found a lot of interesting points from examining the words of Christ in the Gospels from the perspective of Christ as astoundingly informed on matters of (classical Jewish) faith, as seen in His first public outing at the temple.
For example, when the Almighty designated mankind stewards of his creation, the meaning of that is more strongly defined in the parable of the Talents - the stewards who did not leverage their charge to create something greater than what they were given were condemned.
Uh yeah no shit. This is basic doctrine...
What "pastor" have you been talking to?
I assume he is referring to the Lutheran pastor in the article.
The article is even worse as the kid was encouraged since he was 8 by the pastor and his wife.
He should be fed posted. I left my a church because the pastors wife is a leftist. I'd have gone to prison if he were like this dude
I've only seen the "perfect the way you are" heresy online, thankfully. But make no mistake, seminary is suffering the same collapse as general education.
I'm really into kingdom theology right now, specifically ongoing spiritual warfare and the need to build communities. I tried bringing the community aspect up with my current pastor (an "America is the greatest country on earth" boomer) and he more or less dismissed it. He said every few years in state-wide pastors conference, someone brings that up and everyone else shoots it down because building an interdependent community with a semblance of independence from the world doesn't feel "churchy" enough. The other pastors are afraid they'd lose congregations.
Meanwhile, those same congregations have not a single member under 40. It's a complete failure to pass on a functioning system, let alone spread the Kingdom. I'm starting to resent pastors as a class for their failures.
I help with the youth group at church and they are bombarded with this stuff at school and other places. A lot of younger ppl will say “God loves everyone”. The idea that everything must be condoned is growing rabidly in the church.
I used to joke that if you love your kids, you'll homeschool them. It's not a joke anymore.
God does love everyone--that doesn't preclude him from being dissapointed or meting out justice. A father who disciplines a child doesn't stop loving his child for the duration of the discipline. A father, a good one, attempts to raise his child well because of love for his child, not despite it.
It is a mark of how poorly many children have been raised that they think "God loves me" is a justification to make no attempt at betterment--or that Gods love (being infinite) somehow precludes them from also being sinful.