Alright may as well talk about it, the recent Archcast brought this to light but everything from trans pushes to how people apply social media to the real world this is something that's been on my mind a lot.
We should have in our heads a clear distinction between what is fiction and what is reality. Reality is the empirical, from our senses, experience and anaylsis of the environment. Fiction is the opposite, it be based on aspects of reality but isn't required and should have little to no consequences on reality.
We've always had issues with the two with superstitions and mysticism but usually they were either because of lack of knowledge or to remember real world dangers (a tale of a monster attacking if you build there is a warning tsunamis hit this area)
But now it's gone nuts. We have a media encouraging delusions on sex, right and left saying drawings are immoral yet the left say that teaching kids about sex positions is fine and that a woman can beat up a man twice her size.
If I were to pin point when the acceleration pedal was pushed down on this, I'd say it's when normies hit the Internet. They were used to every communication being with an actual person that when they got on the Internet, they didn't understand the etiquette that you can be whatever you want here. They have never caught onto that distinction and it's why we see so many pushes to remove anonymity.
Then there's the lolicon 'debate', it's more a canary in the coal mine for us all than a hill not to die on. Look at everything that happened to it first, payment processors refusing service, refusal to allow content despite meeting tos, criminalisation in some countries of a drawing. This started with fictional content but has bled so easily into speech laws, the fictional was the thin edge of the wedge to then target the real.
I'll stop here to not go too long tldr; The West at large has lost a lot of it's ability to tell fiction from reality and it's led to the mass adoptions of delusions along with using fictional content to target the real world
I realized some of the push around the hating on lolicon was just an attempt to destroy anime and manga when I saw these sort of people calling Uzaki-Chan a "loli."
She is canonically a 20's aged college student, not a child.
She has fairly large tits, which are the last thing a pedo or lolicon would want.
But she is a "loli" because she is short. That was the moment I realized this was another push to try and destroy a medium that still gives customers what they want and is pulling people way from the grip of Hollywood and other "Western" entertainment. The say way they hate video games for generally being fan pleasers instead of message pushers (especially as Indies are on the rise over AAA).
What's funny was seeing how subjective this is as they were tieing themselves in knots to justify Rebecca from Cyberpunk Edgerunners because they liked her but Uzaku-Chan was a loli as they didn't like her.
Which is silly, especially since she reminds me of a VERY adult woman in real life...
Yeah, I wouldnt say that Rebecca is even a loli either, just a very petite woman. I dislike her as a character and think that Luci was infinitely better, but she is still an adult.
Honestly, I think that like many other issues, it is them projecting their own biases and strange delusions onto other things because they cant separate reality and fiction, and they are usually as bigoted as they claim we are (see also: "Orcs are black people").
I think the actual creators behind the anime called Rebecca a loli so she's officially a loli
Very true, they can't seperate reality from fiction so are calling orcs blacks (wtf you Woodrow Wilson projectionist!), I wouldn't put it past them to call the High Elves from Skyrim the true white people!
Fortunately most of us here can seperate it so can just enjoy the content.
Edit: also anyone wanting to know who Uzaki-Chan reminded me of, look up Kaho Shibuya cosplay, there's NO WAY you can confuse that for a child lol
Fair point. Just making a point about the fact that she is also an adult. But Studio Trigger gonna Studio Trigger, so we can run with it.
I should also note they bashed a voice actor who made a post refrencing how she did voice work for daphine and that one avatar character despite the fact BOTH characters LOOK like adults and are treated as such by the fans.
Not to mention the double standards when it comes to controversies like Cuties and the Balenciaga photoshoots. These two situations involved actual minors doing sexual acts on camera (Cuties) and posing in presence of BDSM equipment (Balenciaga). But drawings? That's a big no-no.
Yeah because it's impossible to hate them all apparently
I would counter-point, they know reality, they just don't care or accept it because they have the collective mindset of children. No one has forced them to grow up and the comfortable living in the west has only served to coddle them further. Until these people face absolute hopelessness, reality will never be a drug they ascribe to.
I would agree with this slightly but argue that at least they still don't understand the Internet by this example
Onlyfans and adult streaming sites
Women go on there, make money showing off their bodies and then wonder why no man wants to date them because that was something they did online.
They don't understand that while you can be anonymous on the Internet, what they effectively did was dox themselves so they lost all that anonymity and face the same repercussions as being known as that easy chick in college. It's also why they were mad at virtual stream girls as THEY understood the Internet of you need a barrier between you and everyone else to maintain anonymity.
That is product of the Peter Pan syndrome. They are still living in the mindset of having 'Daddy' pay for everything. That is the problem with the modern person, but especially most women. They believe there are no consequences once you achieve the goal of money coming in. The easiest way to do it is the best.
Unfortunately, at this point, when they do come crashing down, they still won't face reality and will find something else to blame their fortunes upon. The window to learn has passed, it's a continued child-like mindset for the rest of their lives.
As I've said many times, we are going to get a sudden increase of bitter 40 year old women with no meaningful relationships very soon thanks to this mindset
Pretty much, social media was like rocket fuel for a lot of the issues we had and in the short span of years we went from people playing a character online to people maiming themselves to become their fictional self
The superstition mysticism stuff was made up by bored rich people. They could act like minorities while holding tons of money. It's why so many rich girls want to be 'spiritual'.
The actual study of mysticism and whether someone was a witch has been surprisingly the opposite of what it is purported. The first major use of evidence and procedural investigation was done for witch trials. The Spanish inquisition had very few deaths or tortures and led to a lot of modern thinking on how to deal with situations where a lot of people are using accusation to gain power.
I've met people who were in the actual military study of mental abilities. They did try drugs, and found it didn't help. Then they just tried telling someone to imagine something, and they had a 1 in 3 chance of actually describing the place or thing. It had really low funding and was located in a ghetto. They found that yes, mental powers do exist, but there was no real way to increase or use them correctly. That's way different than Stranger Things or the complete disbelief. It exists but is unknown is how most of the planets in the solar system were described before we could actually find them.
I bring this up because the promoted reality is rarely the truth, and those trying to alter it have no real sense of it either.
I always like hearing these snippets of knowledge, just cause you realise more how crazy the world is lol
History is a complete study in absurdity.
Very true lol, though love reading about those events for a laugh
Like the 'temper, temper' incident during the Korean War, both badass and hilarious.
Do you mind going into more detail in where I might be 'behind the curve' thinking this way?
Very true and I'll be honest I was trying to simplify it too much to avoid a bigger essay
That definition more applies to fiction created through drawings or literature that doesn't involve real people or events. It's the difference between Harry Potter and a film about Houdini
There is a massive difference between the two and unfortunately especially with anime and manga, there's been many attempts to conflate the two. Then we get to loli and I think I get more frustrated than anything when people compare that to actual CP as it seems a lot easier to create your hyper-reality with actual people (actors) than it is with a drawn picture or cartoon.
Leftists finally realized to get complete control they needed to put their messaging into pure fantasy fiction too. There can be no escapism without bending a knee.
Which is why they start with loli content through the payment processors, they expand it from there to anime and manga by saying 'these characters are clearly designed to look underage, you must stop working with these businesses!'
They unfortunately are having limited success (I'd like no success and a fuck you) as I can see on some streaming sites censorship but then again there's a lot of loli content so hard to gauge. Manga though seems a complete failure for them.
It is no different from how it used to be with faggotry, troonery, etc. Be perverted all you want in private, expect social or stronger sanction when you try to bring it public. The fact that there isnt any sanction against public faggotry is part of why everything is so messed up.
You are on the wrong track with be "bbut its fiction" whine and pretty much every other comparison "but this (bad thing) is ok, why isnt cartoon kids gettin railed ok?".
Because its the idea ok kids getting railed. Its gross. Some people find it gross enough to act against. Almost nobody finds it worth degending.
I'd argue that is a false equivalency, with homosexuality that was always a real world thing, as is pedophilia. It can be argued since child brides were a thing back when we only lived to 30, that pedophiles are a regressive mindset that did not change with the times similar to flat earthers and believing that a touch from a king can cure you of a sickness caused by potatoes.
You can say you don't like it, you can find it disgusting and degenerate but do not give a green light to censorship. Once it was allowed in one case of fiction, no actual children were abused to make loli content compared to the fashion industry, the parties in power so an opportunity to start pushing the wedge in to expand it to more content like speech, like art, like even opinions.
It's not a matter of 'should it be censored' but ' are you willing to sacrifice your own freedoms to stop fictional content you don't consume?'
I don't understand what your point is. Do you want cartoon child porn on billboards at the center of town? If not then you are also for "censorship". Do you expect to be able to post pictures of cartoon child porn and not get banned or worse?
And as for the "powers that be" they don't need our permission, they do whatever they hell they want. They are already censoring ideas and art and opinions through social and economic violence.
What "freedoms" am I giving up when I say cartoon child porn shouldn't be allowed on public forums?
This is all going to be a moot discussion anyway because art AI is almost so good that it can produce as much cartoon child porn as any pervert could possibly desire in the privacy of his own home.
I did make the distinction of FICTIONAL content such as drawings, I don't have a clothing brand and Kim Kardashin to get away with that?
And as I was saying before, it's the thin edge of the wedge, it's very easy to get upset or disgusted with loli content, completely understable for both the right and left. That is then used by people exploiting those emotions to go 'this content is disgusting and the people that view it for their sick enjoyment will eventually go even further for their kicks! Tell you what, you leave this to us and we'll make sure you never see it."
And then you end up in a Canada situation, it's VERY easy to not see loli content. The creators themselves tag it as such, all you need to do on most if not all platforms is just mark 'i don't want to see this content' and BOOM, no loli content. If all it takes is a little personal action to stop the content be seen by you or your family/children, why would you willing give governments and companies more control instead?
I still don't understand what your point is.
Your slippery slope argument has happened and is currently happening for any number of right-leaning positions. On various platforms you will get warned/suspended/banned. Jewish holocaust questioning, saying gays are much more likely to be pedophiles, saying blacks have lower iq and poor impulse control compared to other ethnic groups, having the opinion that trannies are disgusting, saying women shouldn't be allowed to hold leadership positions or vote etc. Do you think not saying anything against cartoon child porn will magically make these other ideas allowed to be publicly discussed?
I also reject your premise that I should be the one to declare I don't want to see cartoon child porn. The cartoon child porn enthusiast needs to be the one who makes the effort to not put it in front of me.
Depends on if I'm an elementary teacher or not
Away from me glib, to avoid this going down the rabbit hole of 'supporting cartoon child porn' I'm going to set out some positions before I answer
Child porn is any content involving and using REAL children, film, video I'd even include audio, you used children to make it then you deserve life in prison worried about bubba coming into your cell.
Cartoon child porn is an oxymoron, it's a drawing. No children were involved in it so I just don't engage with it and get on with my life. It doesn't have rights, emotions, consciousness or action, it's a drawing. If we start treating that the same as actual child porn, what you have done is FLOODED the police services with so much more work it gets hard to track down actual pedophiles (which currently already happens)
Now as for the person putting it front of you, block them. If they try to invade your space and what you actually want, block them and never deal with them again. Fictional content is at this point a diversion as while trying to get the public engaged about loli's, the same people say how wonderful and artistic Cuties was...
You don't get to handwave that away.
Is it porn? Yes because it depicts sexual acts. We aren't talking about cute characters walking through a field of flowers here.
Is it a depiction of children, yes. It is intended to portray the properties of children in the characters in such a way as to engage the viewers' abstract concept of what a child is.
Therefore it is child porn. But because the depictions are drawings or renderings and not photographs it is cartoon child porn.
Thats cool and all but that isn't the issue. The question is what should happen to those who fail to exercise due diligence in concealing their proclivities from the general public?
I say they should be banned from the platforms they abuse and repeat offenders should be referred to law enforcement.
I'd be careful trying to go with that definition because they tried to call Uzaki-Chan a loli despite she's in college with MASSIVE tits. At least if we differentiate by going "this is a drawing" we can they just go "ensure it's tagged appropriately and they display it on the appropriate place" depending on how adult it is.
Thanks to the lefts trans and let's be honest pedo push, I've seen way more (and too many) REAL children in adult situations, not CP (thank god) but children in strip clubs, around sex toys and encouraged to copy sexual dance moves.
I have not encountered sexual loli content without warnings, like it was just pushed on me. They actually self register themselves and so it isn't an issue as most of the time what people get outraged by on twitter is a drawing of a short woman (a shortstack) that has big tits that they claim is a child.
At least with the drawing distinction we can just make that a content categorisation issue and then you can report if they fail to tag it appropriately. Doing more WILL flood law enforcement to the point real pedos get away and looking at the west currently, they do, A LOT.