So those people that you think lie about everything with regards to the way domestic politics works are completely honest about the way foreign politics works? Fascinating.

It's not a "lib" position to be in NATO. That's a mainstream conservative position, too. Pretty much every Republican, including Trump, agreed. The only person who might disagree would be someone like Rand Paul, and I doubt even he would try. Republicans and conservatives are not libs.

It's funny how you acknowledge that those bases are operated in support of the empire, but then deny the territory is part of the empire. The liberal delusion gets worse.

You keep using that word "empire" I do not think it means what you think it means.

As far as I'm concerned, people like you who keep pushing this delusion that the word "empire" is basically a meaningless word, are authoritarian shills trying to give cover to the only two remaining evil empire-building nations left on earth: Russia and China.

Spez: Next you're going to tell me the Delian League was just a voluntary association of Athens's good friends.

It could have been, but historically, Athens chose to abuse its position of power to try to turn it into a de-facto empire instead of a voluntary coalition. If America behaved the same way Athens did, maybe you'd have an argument. America does not, however, and so you do not.

• Membership in the Delian League was not voluntary. Many cities were forced to join whether they wanted to or not. Cities that rebelled against membership were attacked and subjugated through military force. America does none of these things. When Turkey backstabbed America in the Gulf War, America did not respond by invading Turkey and subjugating it to puppet status the way Athens would have. When other countries tell America "no" when it asks them to join coalitions, America just says "oh, okay" and does nothing about it.

• America's primary foreign policy tool is paying large bribes, which is not what "empires" do. Just look at all the money the US gives to Israel, to muslim countries so they'll actually cooperate against terrorism, and to hispanic countries to cooperate against drug cartels. An empire wouldn't fuck around with any of this. Empires do not entice consent, they impose will through force.

• "By 454 BC, the Delian League could be fairly characterised as an Athenian Empire; a key event of 454 BC was the moving of the treasury of the Delian League from Delos to Athens."

• Athens maintained garrisons for the purpose of controlling the occupied state.

• Athens extracted tributes.