This whole fucking tragedy would have been avoided if Ukrainian leadership had the common sense to stay neutral and if they didn't play along with NATO's attempt to use Ukraine as a bargaining chip against Russia.
Zelensky is a corrupt little bastard who is constantly using emotional appeals to try to rope the U.S into another world war.
A no fly zone means American planes downing Russian planes.
It is a declaration of war between nuclear powers.
Russian speakers (meaning preferring Russian, because everyone speaks Russian) are majority in Ukraine. It was Lenin-defender minority (and the "vacationers" from Russia).
Of course it's the most right wing thing to sympathise with people who took up arms to defend Lenin statues while flying Soviet flags.
A no fly zone means American planes downing Russian planes.
I'm not sure the US can. The US has generally achieved aerial dominance with fighters, not SAM systems. Russia has focused on SAM systems in opposition to this.
What will the US do about S-300 and S-400 systems, and god knows what else on the Russian side of the border?
What's your point? If we're shooting down their planes we've already committed to war against them. Doesn't really matter where the SAMs are at that point.
Or if Ukraine didn’t buy that nato and russia would actually protect them if they gave up their own nukes. It’s unlikely russia would have invaded if they thought a retaliation on their own soil would have been possible
"Their" nukes didn't have keys or launch codes, because the Soviets made sure to take those with them. Those were bargaining chips and nothing more, the Ukraine never could have used them.
Yeah, no way of removing weapons grade nuclear material and putting it into their own weapons. If they were useless no reason to make a deal with them to give them up.
Ukrainian leadership had the common sense to stay neutral
Define "neutral". If you think Russian imperial ambition can be negated by staying neutral, you are making the same mistake Zelenskiy did.
I agree that no fly zone is stupid though.
P. S. If you are scared of nuclear war, you are better off preparing some ways to annex or negate threat from Russian territories with nukes when Russia inevitably falls apart.
It would have been avoided if he did act on the American intelligence and warnings, instead of ignoring and even publicly 'refuting' them, by preparing his country to repel the invasion in time and not starting only 12 hours minus the Z-day.
There were people here too who were taking his 'peace in our time' naive stupid bullshit as supposed evidence this was all really just the very prolonged Zapad-2021 exercises.
It was incredibly frustrating. I've seen a lot of people believe he's a Russian plant, conciously sabotaging all defense only to surrender then.
KYIV, Ukraine — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said on Saturday that warnings of an imminent Russian attack on his country were stoking “panic” and demanded to see firm proof of a planned invasion.
Zelensky’s comments came a day after US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan warned that a Russian attack on its western neighbor could “begin at any time.”
Ukrainian leaders have been trying to talk down the prospects of an all-out war because of the damaging effect it was having on the country’s teetering economy and public morale.
But it was also generally the mood and belief in Ukraine all through the country that nothing will happen, and so very few were preparing in any way whatsoever. They had so much time to do so much, it's just painful.
Ukraine’s government dismissed leaks from American intelligence officials that Russia was transporting supplies of blood to its troops at the Ukrainian border to treat potential casualties of war. “The purpose of such information is to spread panic and fear in our society,” wrote the deputy defence minister, Hanna Maliar, in a Facebook post. A rhetorical and analytical rift has opened between Ukraine and America.
Just pain.
In a way it reminded me of how the Soviets ignored all the warnings about the millions of soldiers gathered at their borders in 1941. Refused to "panic" too. A long tradition that works wonders.
Indeed! A long tradition that works wonders, akin to the very old tradition of appeasement. Reminds me of the 1973 war in Israel and what happens when most of the forces are on holiday as well.
This whole fucking tragedy would have been avoided if Ukrainian leadership had the common sense to stay neutral and if they didn't play along with NATO's attempt to use Ukraine as a bargaining chip against Russia.
Zelensky is a corrupt little bastard who is constantly using emotional appeals to try to rope the U.S into another world war.
A no fly zone means American planes downing Russian planes.
It is a declaration of war between nuclear powers.
It must be avoided.
This whole tragedy would have been avoided if Victoria Nuland and friends hadn't overthrown the pro-nuetrality Yanukovych regime.
This. Not joining NATO isn't enough when the Ukrainian revolutionary government has been fighting a war against its Russian minority for eight years.
Russian speakers (meaning preferring Russian, because everyone speaks Russian) are majority in Ukraine. It was Lenin-defender minority (and the "vacationers" from Russia).
Of course it's the most right wing thing to sympathise with people who took up arms to defend Lenin statues while flying Soviet flags.
According to the 2001 census there were about twice as many Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians as Russian-speaking Ukrainians, and 4.5 times as many ethnic Ukrainians as ethnic Russians.
I'm not sure the US can. The US has generally achieved aerial dominance with fighters, not SAM systems. Russia has focused on SAM systems in opposition to this.
What will the US do about S-300 and S-400 systems, and god knows what else on the Russian side of the border?
If we actually committed to this war? Destroy them with long range missle attacks like we did in Vietnam
"On the russian side of the border"
What's your point? If we're shooting down their planes we've already committed to war against them. Doesn't really matter where the SAMs are at that point.
By the same token, America is extremely well prepared for the mission of SAM suppression.
"On the russian side of the border"
Or if Ukraine didn’t buy that nato and russia would actually protect them if they gave up their own nukes. It’s unlikely russia would have invaded if they thought a retaliation on their own soil would have been possible
"Their" nukes didn't have keys or launch codes, because the Soviets made sure to take those with them. Those were bargaining chips and nothing more, the Ukraine never could have used them.
Yeah, no way of removing weapons grade nuclear material and putting it into their own weapons. If they were useless no reason to make a deal with them to give them up.
If they were usable there wouldn't have been a deal necessary in either direction.
Define "neutral". If you think Russian imperial ambition can be negated by staying neutral, you are making the same mistake Zelenskiy did.
I agree that no fly zone is stupid though.
P. S. If you are scared of nuclear war, you are better off preparing some ways to annex or negate threat from Russian territories with nukes when Russia inevitably falls apart.
It would have been avoided if he did act on the American intelligence and warnings, instead of ignoring and even publicly 'refuting' them, by preparing his country to repel the invasion in time and not starting only 12 hours minus the Z-day.
There were people here too who were taking his 'peace in our time' naive stupid bullshit as supposed evidence this was all really just the very prolonged Zapad-2021 exercises.
^^ This
It was incredibly frustrating. I've seen a lot of people believe he's a Russian plant, conciously sabotaging all defense only to surrender then.
But it was also generally the mood and belief in Ukraine all through the country that nothing will happen, and so very few were preparing in any way whatsoever. They had so much time to do so much, it's just painful.
Just pain.
In a way it reminded me of how the Soviets ignored all the warnings about the millions of soldiers gathered at their borders in 1941. Refused to "panic" too. A long tradition that works wonders.
They've already accused two of their last three elected presidents of treason, so they might as well make it a triple.
Indeed! A long tradition that works wonders, akin to the very old tradition of appeasement. Reminds me of the 1973 war in Israel and what happens when most of the forces are on holiday as well.