You don't even know the extent of the claims about that. Do you know about the supposed masturbation machines, hooking people up to car exhaust, making soap and lampshades out of people, shrunken heads, sticking guns into walls where the barrel bends and they shoot themselves. I could go on for a while.
And most of that is shit that is completely fictitious and seems to exist only within the stories of the Holocaust Deniers themselves.
supposed masturbation machines
Never heard of that
making soap and lampshades out of people
Only ever heard from HD'ers.
shrunken heads
Not part of any Nazi program, wouldn't make sense anyways
sticking guns into walls where the barrel bends and they shoot themselves
Shit you got from Looney Toons.
Find basically any of this from any site that goes over the history of the Holocaust.
The only thing that actually has merit is:
hooking people up to car exhaust
This is actually a way of killing people, and this was actually used to push carbon monoxide into Viet Kong tunnel systems in Vietnam. While the National Socialists had Gas Trucks, this was not how those Gas Trucks were used.
I have never heard of that either. The only gun I have ever heard of with the Nazis that involved a bent barrel was an SMG prototype for tank crews where the idea was that they could spray it out at anyone on their tank while still being protected inside. But it was abandoned because the forces put on the bullets caused them to effectively "explode" inside the barrel.
Other than that, I dont understand why this is still a problem, other than people having an agenda to do Holocaust Denial. We found the camps in American territory as well, and those werent even the true death camps like Auschwitz. American soldiers had to be stopped by their officers on more than one occasion from dishing out retribution because even at the time they wanted it all documented so it could be put to record in a court of law, and killing the camp guards right then and there kind of made that difficult to do, no matter how much they deserved it.
We made sure to to meticulously document all of this shit, and I have straight up seen people say "The abundance of evidence proves its false." And that its now making a comeback among a lot of people my age is infuriating to me as a student of history. That you can have all of the evidence in the world, and still dare to claim "That never happened" because its convenient for a totally separate and unrelated political narrative of yours.
The only gun I have ever heard of with the Nazis that involved a bent barrel was an SMG prototype for tank crews where the idea was that they could spray it out at anyone on their tank while still being protected inside.
Forgotten Weapons has a video about it - mainly about the less extreme 30 degree bend version for urban combat, but also mentions the 90 degree bend version intended to be installed in vehicles.
The worst part is, I don't even think many of them believe their own bullshit.
It's similar to January 6th: you're not upset about it. You're glad about what happened: 4 dead Trump supporters and 1 dead cop. The Left considers that a win-win.
Not one Holocaust Denier would object to the Holocaust if it were happening in front of him. They're just not being honest.
The official figures are as easy to dispute as pointing out that there's no way to burn that many bodies that fast.
What likely happened is they simply took large numbers of Jews as political prisoners and as the war effort soured their ability to sustain the camps diminished, which resulted in the most prisoner deaths (which probably only broke into the hundreds of thousands, if that). They weren't actually coming up with Rube Goldberg contraptions to execute Jews with, much less burning millions of corpses.
They were taking political prisoners, however. That much is undeniable. It was an authoritarian regime but so much about it has been completely blown out of proportion.
The official figures are as easy to dispute as pointing out that there's no way to burn that many bodies that fast.
If you don't know what the Holocaust is, sure.
I can't believe I have to do this again, but if you're saying "6 million Jews 7 furnaces", then you literally have no idea what the Holocaust is or how it happened.
You must have a basic, elementary, level grasp on the topic in order to dispute it.
If you're saying Nazis injected hydrogen cyanide from the ceiling to mass kill people, I got some questions. Not even disputing the numbers. The idea is just so asinine on its face.
They claim that 1.1 million people were killed in gas chambers by using a pellet based insecticide. Where are the piles of bodies, the ashes? And no, using Soviet accounts is not reliable.
Whatever "original claim"? Concentration camp was always the official name. Extermination camp was the unofficial name, the whole operation was secret. The official purpose was these were just transit camps in the "resettlement to the East". They were also told they were being sent to work.
The reason why Poland, besides the place that had most Jews in the world so logistic side was obvious, was that Poland (like I just mentioned in https://kotakuinaction2.win/p/12jJUaaUH1/x/c/4JAfAZNrtzc) just didn't exist at all anymore, and so it was a "black hole" where neither German nor any other laws applied.
(Actually the Americans later used a similar logic to set up the X-Ray Camp not anywhere on the American soil but at Guantanamo Bay in a legal loophole.)
In the USSR they needed no camps to rid of the Jews because they just either shot them or instigated the locals to pogroms. But they took many of the Soviet POWs to Poland in order to to kill them, including at the newly build Birkenau Camp that later became Auschwitz II (http://auschwitz.org/en/history/categories-of-prisoners/soviet-pows/).
They claim that 1.1 million people were killed in gas chambers by using a pellet based insecticide.
No, they claim that 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz during the entirety of it's operation, in total. Gas Chambers, shootings, starvation, disease, etc.
Obviously the Soviet numbers aren't reliable, the did some 'back of the envelope' math and didn't even bother to consider maintenance windows, which is why the Camp Commandant of Auschwitz had to correct them at Nuremberg in his own trial.
Where are the piles of bodies, the ashes?
Where's all the ash from my fire place?
I have a chimney. That's where a portion of it goes. The hotter I burn it, the less ash will be left over. For the remainder that I do have, I can literally just toss it out as fertilizer. Steel nails and all. The ash will get absorbed relatively quickly, and dispersed very easily.
I've been burning wood for decades. There are no visible ash piles anywhere on my property, good lord, why would there be. It snows and rains and ash is light.
If I really cared and wanted to bury it, I could do that too and really nothing would be damaged or altered.
An awkward topic. You're aware of how this subject is taught in schools, I assume. The well has been not only poisoned but turned into a toxic dump. I have questions about both sides of the coin, but I'm too tired of the subject to ask.
I've pretty much settled on "it doesn't matter one way or the other". It's taught for political purposes rather than historical understanding, and I don't think propaganda deserves serious consideration (though it can help people understand how much of a farce school is).
Even if it didn't happen, it doesn't change the context of the war. It doesn't even change the aftermath. Things were fucked, for sure, and I mostly find myself annoyed by this distraction that impedes my understanding of the relevant events.
Personally, I blame the laws banning holocaust denial over there. Negative reinforcement is easy because it works poorly. Similarly, if we were encouraged to understand instead of simply memorize, I think most people wouldn't give it so much weight.
You're aware of how this subject is taught in schools, I assume.
I am, but it's normally never as crazy as the HD'ers claim.
In my experience it's basically doing a project, reading Night, and reading Maus. It's not really any better than any other particular topic the public school likes to focus on. Most people hardly know anything about it because the school covered it for 2-4 weeks, including WW2, and that's about it.
Being a fan of history, nobody knows shit from history about public school. I took my friends to go see "Dunkirk" and I had to give them a quick history lesson before the movie started, just so they got the idea of who was fighting, where, and why. All their knowledge of history basically comes from public school... so they didn't know shit. They guess WW2 started in 1937, and I was just glad they got around a good date.
Actually watching documentaries, listening to recordings, reviewing some court documents brought to Nuremburg, and JFC seeing Night And Fog, it's a whole different story.
I've pretty much settled on "it doesn't matter one way or the other".
Unfortunately, this genocide matters for 2 important reasons:
One: It is a fundamental aspect to National Socialism. The Holocaust had to occur because of National Socialism. If Germany had been Fascist instead of National Socialist, it wouldn't have happened. The war still would have been bloody, but the explicit extermination of the Jewish race was an imperative to National Socialism and Nazi argument of Judeo-Bolshevism, the Racial Theory of History, and Socialism as applied to race. That should concern the fuck out of you given how many Racial Socialists are appearing on the right and are making all the same claims.
Two: It's methodology was vastly different from most depopulation efforts. Genocide isn't even the typical method of depopulation, although war is. The National Socialists didn't let Jews out. They wanted to eradicate all of them to save Europe. Most of the time, conquering forces push people out before them. Even in Genocides, people flee. The National Socialists made sure they couldn't. This was a very deliberate effort of total extermination on a supra-national scale. The amount of Jews that the National Socialists had to kill was extreme. And they knew it. That's why they developed an infrastructure to do it. What HD'ers will run with sometimes is they will ask why the National Socialists didn't just shoot everyone. They were! But it wasn't fast enough, wasn't orderly enough, and used too much resources.
This why they had to use extermination camps. In economics it's called "Capital Investment". You make an investment in assets to make your production flow more efficient. Instead of having 10 people make widgets as fast as they can and producing 50 /hr. Make a widget machine that requires 5 people to operate and maintain, that makes 100 /hr. Without capital investment, maybe the best you can do is 100 people making 1000 widgits an hour. With capital investment in widget machines, you can hire might not hit that point of diminishing return until you get 200 people making 10,000 widgits an hour. That's the sinister part of this. These are factories of death. Murder is the commodity that the factory is producing. They made a capital investment in murder, and a logistical system to support it. They had an agenda to kill every single Jew in Europe without exception, and they were building a logistical system to do exactly that. It was the commodification of death that makes the Holocaust truly unique.
Personally, I blame the laws banning holocaust denial over there. Negative reinforcement is easy because it works poorly. Similarly, if we were encouraged to understand instead of simply memorize, I think most people wouldn't give it so much weight.
I don't think you're wrong. Censorship doesn't fix the problem. But there's also the fact that the National Socialists want to deny it because
a) Stating that it is a moral imperative, as the National Socialists concluded, is really intolerable to all moral creatures
b) It's a way of hoisting the Marxists and Communists on their own petard. They would like the systemic extermination of the Capitalist bourgeoisie. The National Socialists are asserting the Jews are the Capitalist bourgeoisie. It's a trap: if the National Socialists are Socialists, the Marxists have to admit they want a Holocaust of the rich... which happens to also include a lot of names that end in -stein. If the National Socialists are not Socialists, then they would never call for the extermination ... of bourgeoisie. To deny Socialism is to deny the Holocaust, to deny the Holocaust is to deny Socialism.
In the end, the National Socialists are straight up lying about the Holocaust which is something they think is a moral imperative, and their Useful Idiots are normally so ignorant of Holocaust in an even rudimentary way that there's rarely anything to talk about with them.
These doors were installed by the Soviets. The original doors weren't there anymore at all, as the places have been either demolished or converted to air raid shelters back in 1944.
There is enough evidence it did happen, and whatever did was horrific enough to be treated with the distaste it gets.
But listening to their claims about it can make anyone a denier, because its never enough to have the truth. It has to be the most uniquely terrible event in history, even if that means exaggerating and one upping everything else.
It is in fact a very good comparison narratively speaking to what we are seeing in real time.
The degree to which democrats have lied about January 6th has made me much more open to Holocaust denial.
You don't even know the extent of the claims about that. Do you know about the supposed masturbation machines, hooking people up to car exhaust, making soap and lampshades out of people, shrunken heads, sticking guns into walls where the barrel bends and they shoot themselves. I could go on for a while.
I think people combine the Japanese Unit 731 and the holocaust in their heads
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Mine cars that top them over into a giant furnace.
You mean.. the Nazis engaged in buck breaking?
A truck, or even a Soviet tank engine (https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25742), isn't what I'd call "car".
deathcoasters straight into the cremators. highly efficient german engineering.
And most of that is shit that is completely fictitious and seems to exist only within the stories of the Holocaust Deniers themselves.
Never heard of that
Only ever heard from HD'ers.
Not part of any Nazi program, wouldn't make sense anyways
Shit you got from Looney Toons.
Find basically any of this from any site that goes over the history of the Holocaust.
The only thing that actually has merit is:
This is actually a way of killing people, and this was actually used to push carbon monoxide into Viet Kong tunnel systems in Vietnam. While the National Socialists had Gas Trucks, this was not how those Gas Trucks were used.
I have never heard of that either. The only gun I have ever heard of with the Nazis that involved a bent barrel was an SMG prototype for tank crews where the idea was that they could spray it out at anyone on their tank while still being protected inside. But it was abandoned because the forces put on the bullets caused them to effectively "explode" inside the barrel.
Other than that, I dont understand why this is still a problem, other than people having an agenda to do Holocaust Denial. We found the camps in American territory as well, and those werent even the true death camps like Auschwitz. American soldiers had to be stopped by their officers on more than one occasion from dishing out retribution because even at the time they wanted it all documented so it could be put to record in a court of law, and killing the camp guards right then and there kind of made that difficult to do, no matter how much they deserved it.
We made sure to to meticulously document all of this shit, and I have straight up seen people say "The abundance of evidence proves its false." And that its now making a comeback among a lot of people my age is infuriating to me as a student of history. That you can have all of the evidence in the world, and still dare to claim "That never happened" because its convenient for a totally separate and unrelated political narrative of yours.
Literal assault rifle (Sturmgewehr), just originally named a machine pistol before this term was coined by Literally Hitler.
Forgotten Weapons has a video about it - mainly about the less extreme 30 degree bend version for urban combat, but also mentions the 90 degree bend version intended to be installed in vehicles.
The worst part is, I don't even think many of them believe their own bullshit.
It's similar to January 6th: you're not upset about it. You're glad about what happened: 4 dead Trump supporters and 1 dead cop. The Left considers that a win-win.
Not one Holocaust Denier would object to the Holocaust if it were happening in front of him. They're just not being honest.
The official figures are as easy to dispute as pointing out that there's no way to burn that many bodies that fast.
What likely happened is they simply took large numbers of Jews as political prisoners and as the war effort soured their ability to sustain the camps diminished, which resulted in the most prisoner deaths (which probably only broke into the hundreds of thousands, if that). They weren't actually coming up with Rube Goldberg contraptions to execute Jews with, much less burning millions of corpses.
They were taking political prisoners, however. That much is undeniable. It was an authoritarian regime but so much about it has been completely blown out of proportion.
If you don't know what the Holocaust is, sure.
I can't believe I have to do this again, but if you're saying "6 million Jews 7 furnaces", then you literally have no idea what the Holocaust is or how it happened.
You must have a basic, elementary, level grasp on the topic in order to dispute it.
If you're saying Nazis injected hydrogen cyanide from the ceiling to mass kill people, I got some questions. Not even disputing the numbers. The idea is just so asinine on its face.
What are you going to argue, hydrogen cyanide doesn't lead to cyanide poisoning?
They claim that 1.1 million people were killed in gas chambers by using a pellet based insecticide. Where are the piles of bodies, the ashes? And no, using Soviet accounts is not reliable.
Whatever "original claim"? Concentration camp was always the official name. Extermination camp was the unofficial name, the whole operation was secret. The official purpose was these were just transit camps in the "resettlement to the East". They were also told they were being sent to work.
The reason why Poland, besides the place that had most Jews in the world so logistic side was obvious, was that Poland (like I just mentioned in https://kotakuinaction2.win/p/12jJUaaUH1/x/c/4JAfAZNrtzc) just didn't exist at all anymore, and so it was a "black hole" where neither German nor any other laws applied.
(Actually the Americans later used a similar logic to set up the X-Ray Camp not anywhere on the American soil but at Guantanamo Bay in a legal loophole.)
In the USSR they needed no camps to rid of the Jews because they just either shot them or instigated the locals to pogroms. But they took many of the Soviet POWs to Poland in order to to kill them, including at the newly build Birkenau Camp that later became Auschwitz II (http://auschwitz.org/en/history/categories-of-prisoners/soviet-pows/).
No, they claim that 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz during the entirety of it's operation, in total. Gas Chambers, shootings, starvation, disease, etc.
Obviously the Soviet numbers aren't reliable, the did some 'back of the envelope' math and didn't even bother to consider maintenance windows, which is why the Camp Commandant of Auschwitz had to correct them at Nuremberg in his own trial.
Where's all the ash from my fire place?
I have a chimney. That's where a portion of it goes. The hotter I burn it, the less ash will be left over. For the remainder that I do have, I can literally just toss it out as fertilizer. Steel nails and all. The ash will get absorbed relatively quickly, and dispersed very easily.
I've been burning wood for decades. There are no visible ash piles anywhere on my property, good lord, why would there be. It snows and rains and ash is light.
If I really cared and wanted to bury it, I could do that too and really nothing would be damaged or altered.
No no no no, not six million Jews and seven furnaces?
I'm saying six million pizzas and only four ovens.
Sit down, fatty.
An awkward topic. You're aware of how this subject is taught in schools, I assume. The well has been not only poisoned but turned into a toxic dump. I have questions about both sides of the coin, but I'm too tired of the subject to ask.
I've pretty much settled on "it doesn't matter one way or the other". It's taught for political purposes rather than historical understanding, and I don't think propaganda deserves serious consideration (though it can help people understand how much of a farce school is).
Even if it didn't happen, it doesn't change the context of the war. It doesn't even change the aftermath. Things were fucked, for sure, and I mostly find myself annoyed by this distraction that impedes my understanding of the relevant events.
Personally, I blame the laws banning holocaust denial over there. Negative reinforcement is easy because it works poorly. Similarly, if we were encouraged to understand instead of simply memorize, I think most people wouldn't give it so much weight.
I am, but it's normally never as crazy as the HD'ers claim.
In my experience it's basically doing a project, reading Night, and reading Maus. It's not really any better than any other particular topic the public school likes to focus on. Most people hardly know anything about it because the school covered it for 2-4 weeks, including WW2, and that's about it.
Being a fan of history, nobody knows shit from history about public school. I took my friends to go see "Dunkirk" and I had to give them a quick history lesson before the movie started, just so they got the idea of who was fighting, where, and why. All their knowledge of history basically comes from public school... so they didn't know shit. They guess WW2 started in 1937, and I was just glad they got around a good date.
Actually watching documentaries, listening to recordings, reviewing some court documents brought to Nuremburg, and JFC seeing Night And Fog, it's a whole different story.
Unfortunately, this genocide matters for 2 important reasons:
One: It is a fundamental aspect to National Socialism. The Holocaust had to occur because of National Socialism. If Germany had been Fascist instead of National Socialist, it wouldn't have happened. The war still would have been bloody, but the explicit extermination of the Jewish race was an imperative to National Socialism and Nazi argument of Judeo-Bolshevism, the Racial Theory of History, and Socialism as applied to race. That should concern the fuck out of you given how many Racial Socialists are appearing on the right and are making all the same claims.
Two: It's methodology was vastly different from most depopulation efforts. Genocide isn't even the typical method of depopulation, although war is. The National Socialists didn't let Jews out. They wanted to eradicate all of them to save Europe. Most of the time, conquering forces push people out before them. Even in Genocides, people flee. The National Socialists made sure they couldn't. This was a very deliberate effort of total extermination on a supra-national scale. The amount of Jews that the National Socialists had to kill was extreme. And they knew it. That's why they developed an infrastructure to do it. What HD'ers will run with sometimes is they will ask why the National Socialists didn't just shoot everyone. They were! But it wasn't fast enough, wasn't orderly enough, and used too much resources.
This why they had to use extermination camps. In economics it's called "Capital Investment". You make an investment in assets to make your production flow more efficient. Instead of having 10 people make widgets as fast as they can and producing 50 /hr. Make a widget machine that requires 5 people to operate and maintain, that makes 100 /hr. Without capital investment, maybe the best you can do is 100 people making 1000 widgits an hour. With capital investment in widget machines, you can hire might not hit that point of diminishing return until you get 200 people making 10,000 widgits an hour. That's the sinister part of this. These are factories of death. Murder is the commodity that the factory is producing. They made a capital investment in murder, and a logistical system to support it. They had an agenda to kill every single Jew in Europe without exception, and they were building a logistical system to do exactly that. It was the commodification of death that makes the Holocaust truly unique.
I don't think you're wrong. Censorship doesn't fix the problem. But there's also the fact that the National Socialists want to deny it because
a) Stating that it is a moral imperative, as the National Socialists concluded, is really intolerable to all moral creatures
b) It's a way of hoisting the Marxists and Communists on their own petard. They would like the systemic extermination of the Capitalist bourgeoisie. The National Socialists are asserting the Jews are the Capitalist bourgeoisie. It's a trap: if the National Socialists are Socialists, the Marxists have to admit they want a Holocaust of the rich... which happens to also include a lot of names that end in -stein. If the National Socialists are not Socialists, then they would never call for the extermination ... of bourgeoisie. To deny Socialism is to deny the Holocaust, to deny the Holocaust is to deny Socialism.
In the end, the National Socialists are straight up lying about the Holocaust which is something they think is a moral imperative, and their Useful Idiots are normally so ignorant of Holocaust in an even rudimentary way that there's rarely anything to talk about with them.
Yep, me too. I am now 100% convinced No gassing of Jews occured.
False, at least one person has farted in the vicinity of a Jew.
even ann francks sister admits the hoax. you know that girl that wrote the diary her father finshed and tried to pass it off as his daughters
Ay tone... these doors are all wooden, this shit aint adding up
These doors were installed by the Soviets. The original doors weren't there anymore at all, as the places have been either demolished or converted to air raid shelters back in 1944.
There is enough evidence it did happen, and whatever did was horrific enough to be treated with the distaste it gets.
But listening to their claims about it can make anyone a denier, because its never enough to have the truth. It has to be the most uniquely terrible event in history, even if that means exaggerating and one upping everything else.
It is in fact a very good comparison narratively speaking to what we are seeing in real time.
Check out the comment by u/KirbyMorph in this thread:
https://communities.win/c/ConsumeProduct/p/12j0VySY0e/
Is this the best the American Right has to offer?
After having enough personal experience to point this out, Holocaust Denial is purely based on ignorance and based on motivated reasoning.
It's honestly not any different than what the media and most Leftists do with January 6. It's just more well accepted.
even anne franks sister admits it was a hoax