I was looking forward to Dune part 2, until I realized what they did in the casting. The Fremen are all arabic and black. The evil Harkonnen and Sardaukar are White. The Harkonnen are literally albino White. The messaging couldn't be more clear. White people bad, non-whites are oppressed and good. To make it even more blunt, Paul is being played by a jewish actor, who bravely leads the non-whites against the evil Whites. This is probably why they won't (faithfully) adapt the subsequent Dune books, because it turns the first book on its head.
Even though Villeneuve claims to be a big fan of the books, he's said in recent interviews (if I remember correctly) that the female characters aren't focused on enough, and aren't strong enough as female characters, so he's going to change the story. Anyone that's read the Dune books knows that's a profound lie. The women are some of the strongest characters in the lore. The Bene Gesserit are literally immortal, if they choose, by manipulating their body chemistry, but don't for fear of being found out by the Imperium until their plan comes to fruition, and are some of the best fighters in the Imperium. Villenuive said he wants to focus on the female characters more and give them more material, which is just going to create the extremely grating modern feminist girl boss trope, in a story that doesn't need it. It's explicitly said in the first Dune book that the female Fremen fighters are extremely capable fighters, and fight with their men.
Should've seen this coming from what they did in Part 1. They race and gender swapped Liet Kynes. He was supposed to be able to blend in with both the Imperium royal houses and the Fremen. He's described as having "long sandy hair". His father was Imperial but his mother was Fremen. Black people don't have hair like that. Kynes was also supposed to be a stand in for Frank Herbert, a White man. Also, even though it's not explicitly mentioned in the books, Paul and Chani bond over the fact that both of their fathers were murdered by the Harkonnen and the Emperor. There was a lot left unsaid in the Dune books by Herbert, who left clues for his audience, enabling them to fill in the gaps, especially with regard to character motivations.
At most, the entire Dune saga revolving around spice is an allegory for oil and the Middle East, which would make the Fremen Arabic and the Imperium White, if taken at face value. However, the Fremen aren't native to Arrakis. Through thousands of years of immigration, they finally ended up there. I don't recall Fremen ever being explicitly defined in terms of race in the books. Skin color is mentioned sparsely, but only for a few key characters. There were some suggestions in the books of racial differences along planetary lines, and that there are differences between Fremen and the Imperium, but it's left just vague enough to allow other interpretations.
In any case, at the minimum, the race and gender swap of Liet Kynes was an insult to the author himself. At most, it's an insult to the author's work, characters, intentions, and story, perverting it to insert messages Herbert never intended or wanted. Nowhere in the books does Herbert chastise the evil White people and venerate the oppressed POCs, nor would it be smart. Herbert was quite intelligent, and any scifi author knows you make your allegories vague, so they have wider appeal and applicability.
The change in part 1 was a clear indication of what their priorities/subversions were, which is being dialed up in Part 2. It's annoying, because Dune would be a fantastic IP to (properly) adapt, but not in modern Hollywood. I guess I'll have to stick to the SciFi miniseries and the books.
To be fair, there are some factors that go against your narrative as well. Timothée Chalamet’s mother is Russian Jewish and Austrian Jewish, and his father is non-Jewish French. House Atreides from Caladan (Caledonia, i.e. Scotland), the obvious good-guy faction, is also white. And if anything, making the poor desert people look like the stereotypical Middle Easterners and having the faction of white saviors empower and recruit them should be more offensive to the opposing side than not.
Herbert is good because he plays around with alot of things in his books, and the one thing he doesn't mind indulging in basically amounts to the conflict between gender.
The Padishah Emperor is the most powerful man in the universe. A god in all but name, whom commands all of humanity, whom calls the Guild and the Landsraad to heel, who orchestrates the downfall of those whom oppose him without care for the repercussions -
Yet the moment he requests a male child from his Bene Gesserit witch, the basic reply is 'Lol no get fucked. We'll whore your daughter out to whom we wish to secure our genetic plan for humanity'.
Yeah. You think someone in that sort of situation is going to send a woman as his Hand and Word on Arrakis? Fuck no.
(Also he should be a thirty-something looking redhead but none of the movies ever do that, heh.)
Conversely, Dune is also a story about how love can move the universe, because when Leto asked for a son from his Bene Gesserit witch, his wife in all but name, she basically went all in and gave him what he wanted - threw away thousand years of breeding, all for love.
But Villenuive supposedly has a deep understanding of the setting. Yeah. Sure.
Freman Race
Fun fact - we get an off-hand mention of how the Saurdukar and the Fremen were both taken from the same location before being resettled on their respective planets. So... yeah.
(This is the part I love about Dune - Frank Herbert includes all these small little details just as offhand mentions that are kind of a big deal.)
I'm copying from an ebook, so excuse any whonky formatting.
His youth;
My father, the Padishah Emperor, took me by the hand one day and I sensed in the ways my mother had taught me that he was disturbed. He led me down the Hall of Portraits to the ego-likeness of the Duke Leto Atreides. I marked the strong resemblance between them—my father and this man in the portrait—bothwith thin, elegant faces and sharp features dominated by cold eyes. "Princess daughter," my father said, "I would that you’d been older when it came time for this man to choose a woman." My father was 71 at the time and looking no older than the man in the portrait, and I was but 14, yet I remember deducing in that instant that my father secretly wished the Duke had been his son, and disliked the political necessities that made them enemies.
-"In my Father’s House" by Princess Irulan
Maybe not thirty something, but still young-looking enough to be Leto's equivalent.
Red hair;
Paul thought then of prescient glimpses into the possibilities of this moment—and one time-line where Thufir carried a poisoned needle which the Emperor commanded he use against "this upstart Duke."
The entrance guards stepped aside, formed a short corridor of lances. There came a murmurous swish of garments, feet rasping the sand that had drifted into the Residency.
The Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV led his people into the hall. His burseg helmet had been lost and the red hair stood out in disarray. His uniform’s left sleeve had been ripped along the inner seam. He was beltless and without weapons, but his presence moved with him like a force-shield bubble that kept his immediate area open.
And again;
"Nobody permitted me to—"
"Stop playing the fool," Paul barked. "The Guild is like a village beside a river. They need the water, but can only dip out what they require. They cannot dam the river and control it, because that focuses attention on what they take, it brings down eventual destruction. The spice flow, that’s their river, and I have built a dam. But my dam is such that you cannot destroy it without destroying the river."
The Emperor brushed a hand through his red hair, glanced at the backs of the two Guildsmen.
"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There are other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but once they’ve used the spice liquor, the others no longer work."
So, yeah. None of the movie's really got him right.
I’ve read the first book. Should I read all the books? I still haven’t seen the sci-fi series. Just the 84 movie. I didn’t know he said all that. Race swaps serve as a red flag at least. I did hear in his defense he was forced to race swap but I didn’t know he said that about focusing on females. Didn’t know about the Fremen casting.
Read all the books by Frank. The later material by his son, Brian, and Kevin J Anderson are often considered to be little more than a cash grab and exploiting Frank's successes.
The SciFi miniseries is good. The CGI is obviously dated, but can be ignored because the rest of it is good. To be more efficient with their money, they also used massive painted/printed back drops, which give it an almost stage play like feel. They lean into this by using vibrant colors to highlight characters in specific shots. It might bother some, but I find it endearing.
It does change some aspects of the story, but they're relatively minor compared to what modern Hollywood does. The length even enabled them to add scenes, to expand some characters, like princess Irulan. Whether you agree with the changes or not, the changes are made to try and improve it, and not subvert the audience.
The first book is broken down into 3 parts in the Dune miniseries, which works really well, and doesn't condense the story drastically, or leaving a lot out like the 1984 movie, and even part 1 of the recent movie did. The "Children of Dune" miniseries is also good, and combines the 2nd and 3rd books together, but I like the first miniseries more.
I've only read up to Children of Dune. I'd like to read them all, but I prefer to buy the older hard cover books, which are ridiculously over inflated in price at the moment.
As for my impression, the first 3 books are well worth a read. A relatively minor, if largely impacting spoiler, but the first book is turned on its head. Herbert wanted to warn about messianic savior figures in the Dune saga, like Paul Muad'dib Atreides in the first book. The first book can be appreciated by itself as a classic hero's journey and revenge tail set in a great scifi universe. The Dune saga, however, explores the consequences of that, and of messianic figures in general.
To be vague, and yet clear enough to make the point, Paul's actions lead to horrific atrocities. Paul sees a far flung future problem which he sees no way to avoid, or chooses not to follow the path to avoid it. His children do, however, which affects all the subsequent books, which go much further in time than one would normally expect, and from what I've heard, get rather weird. I've also heard that Herbert intended to write one or two more books, but he knew his time was short (health problems), and wrote fairly strange final chapter, with himself and his wife inserted into the story, as ordinary yet godlike figures looking down upon the galactic story Herbert was telling, but it's really just a thinly veiled final address to his readers and fans, to thank them.
It's obvious, even in book 1, especially in Paul's spice visions, how esoteric Herbert can be. He also makes philosophical commentary throughout subsequent books, which you may or may not like. I appreciate what he's saying, but as I'm inclined that way, I noticed that he contradicts himself in some areas (philosophically), which I venture most people would miss. In any case, it doesn't affect much, because Herbert is very good at his world building, even if it's a bit unique compared to other authors, and the messages he's conveying are genuine. Some chapters/sections get quite abstract and cerebral, which can be tough to read, but overall I definitely recommend the books.
I was looking forward to Dune part 2, until I realized what they did in the casting. The Fremen are all arabic and black. The evil Harkonnen and Sardaukar are White. The Harkonnen are literally albino White. The messaging couldn't be more clear. White people bad, non-whites are oppressed and good. To make it even more blunt, Paul is being played by a jewish actor, who bravely leads the non-whites against the evil Whites. This is probably why they won't (faithfully) adapt the subsequent Dune books, because it turns the first book on its head.
Even though Villeneuve claims to be a big fan of the books, he's said in recent interviews (if I remember correctly) that the female characters aren't focused on enough, and aren't strong enough as female characters, so he's going to change the story. Anyone that's read the Dune books knows that's a profound lie. The women are some of the strongest characters in the lore. The Bene Gesserit are literally immortal, if they choose, by manipulating their body chemistry, but don't for fear of being found out by the Imperium until their plan comes to fruition, and are some of the best fighters in the Imperium. Villenuive said he wants to focus on the female characters more and give them more material, which is just going to create the extremely grating modern feminist girl boss trope, in a story that doesn't need it. It's explicitly said in the first Dune book that the female Fremen fighters are extremely capable fighters, and fight with their men.
Should've seen this coming from what they did in Part 1. They race and gender swapped Liet Kynes. He was supposed to be able to blend in with both the Imperium royal houses and the Fremen. He's described as having "long sandy hair". His father was Imperial but his mother was Fremen. Black people don't have hair like that. Kynes was also supposed to be a stand in for Frank Herbert, a White man. Also, even though it's not explicitly mentioned in the books, Paul and Chani bond over the fact that both of their fathers were murdered by the Harkonnen and the Emperor. There was a lot left unsaid in the Dune books by Herbert, who left clues for his audience, enabling them to fill in the gaps, especially with regard to character motivations.
At most, the entire Dune saga revolving around spice is an allegory for oil and the Middle East, which would make the Fremen Arabic and the Imperium White, if taken at face value. However, the Fremen aren't native to Arrakis. Through thousands of years of immigration, they finally ended up there. I don't recall Fremen ever being explicitly defined in terms of race in the books. Skin color is mentioned sparsely, but only for a few key characters. There were some suggestions in the books of racial differences along planetary lines, and that there are differences between Fremen and the Imperium, but it's left just vague enough to allow other interpretations.
In any case, at the minimum, the race and gender swap of Liet Kynes was an insult to the author himself. At most, it's an insult to the author's work, characters, intentions, and story, perverting it to insert messages Herbert never intended or wanted. Nowhere in the books does Herbert chastise the evil White people and venerate the oppressed POCs, nor would it be smart. Herbert was quite intelligent, and any scifi author knows you make your allegories vague, so they have wider appeal and applicability.
The change in part 1 was a clear indication of what their priorities/subversions were, which is being dialed up in Part 2. It's annoying, because Dune would be a fantastic IP to (properly) adapt, but not in modern Hollywood. I guess I'll have to stick to the SciFi miniseries and the books.
To be fair, there are some factors that go against your narrative as well. Timothée Chalamet’s mother is Russian Jewish and Austrian Jewish, and his father is non-Jewish French. House Atreides from Caladan (Caledonia, i.e. Scotland), the obvious good-guy faction, is also white. And if anything, making the poor desert people look like the stereotypical Middle Easterners and having the faction of white saviors empower and recruit them should be more offensive to the opposing side than not.
jews are matrilineal, if his mother is Jewish then he's Jewish
But he's only half jewish!!!
Fucking thank you.
Herbert is good because he plays around with alot of things in his books, and the one thing he doesn't mind indulging in basically amounts to the conflict between gender.
The Padishah Emperor is the most powerful man in the universe. A god in all but name, whom commands all of humanity, whom calls the Guild and the Landsraad to heel, who orchestrates the downfall of those whom oppose him without care for the repercussions -
Yet the moment he requests a male child from his Bene Gesserit witch, the basic reply is 'Lol no get fucked. We'll whore your daughter out to whom we wish to secure our genetic plan for humanity'.
Yeah. You think someone in that sort of situation is going to send a woman as his Hand and Word on Arrakis? Fuck no.
(Also he should be a thirty-something looking redhead but none of the movies ever do that, heh.)
Conversely, Dune is also a story about how love can move the universe, because when Leto asked for a son from his Bene Gesserit witch, his wife in all but name, she basically went all in and gave him what he wanted - threw away thousand years of breeding, all for love.
But Villenuive supposedly has a deep understanding of the setting. Yeah. Sure.
Fun fact - we get an off-hand mention of how the Saurdukar and the Fremen were both taken from the same location before being resettled on their respective planets. So... yeah.
I don't recall that being said about Shaddam IV. Do you have a reference for it?
I do, actually!
(This is the part I love about Dune - Frank Herbert includes all these small little details just as offhand mentions that are kind of a big deal.)
I'm copying from an ebook, so excuse any whonky formatting.
His youth;
Maybe not thirty something, but still young-looking enough to be Leto's equivalent.
Red hair;
And again;
So, yeah. None of the movie's really got him right.
I remember most of those passages now. Been a bit since I read the first book.
Thank you.
I’ve read the first book. Should I read all the books? I still haven’t seen the sci-fi series. Just the 84 movie. I didn’t know he said all that. Race swaps serve as a red flag at least. I did hear in his defense he was forced to race swap but I didn’t know he said that about focusing on females. Didn’t know about the Fremen casting.
Read all the books by Frank. The later material by his son, Brian, and Kevin J Anderson are often considered to be little more than a cash grab and exploiting Frank's successes.
Ok. I have the next 2 in the series but haven’t read them yet
I would skip Dune Messiah. You won't miss anything you can't get from a wiki, and the book is difficult and slow and does not stand on its own.
But if you like Herbert there is a limited amount of material.
Chapterhouse is actually favorite. Yes, dirty old man Herbert, but the interest is way beyond the futa BS
The SciFi miniseries is good. The CGI is obviously dated, but can be ignored because the rest of it is good. To be more efficient with their money, they also used massive painted/printed back drops, which give it an almost stage play like feel. They lean into this by using vibrant colors to highlight characters in specific shots. It might bother some, but I find it endearing.
It does change some aspects of the story, but they're relatively minor compared to what modern Hollywood does. The length even enabled them to add scenes, to expand some characters, like princess Irulan. Whether you agree with the changes or not, the changes are made to try and improve it, and not subvert the audience.
The first book is broken down into 3 parts in the Dune miniseries, which works really well, and doesn't condense the story drastically, or leaving a lot out like the 1984 movie, and even part 1 of the recent movie did. The "Children of Dune" miniseries is also good, and combines the 2nd and 3rd books together, but I like the first miniseries more.
I've only read up to Children of Dune. I'd like to read them all, but I prefer to buy the older hard cover books, which are ridiculously over inflated in price at the moment.
As for my impression, the first 3 books are well worth a read. A relatively minor, if largely impacting spoiler, but the first book is turned on its head. Herbert wanted to warn about messianic savior figures in the Dune saga, like Paul Muad'dib Atreides in the first book. The first book can be appreciated by itself as a classic hero's journey and revenge tail set in a great scifi universe. The Dune saga, however, explores the consequences of that, and of messianic figures in general.
To be vague, and yet clear enough to make the point, Paul's actions lead to horrific atrocities. Paul sees a far flung future problem which he sees no way to avoid, or chooses not to follow the path to avoid it. His children do, however, which affects all the subsequent books, which go much further in time than one would normally expect, and from what I've heard, get rather weird. I've also heard that Herbert intended to write one or two more books, but he knew his time was short (health problems), and wrote fairly strange final chapter, with himself and his wife inserted into the story, as ordinary yet godlike figures looking down upon the galactic story Herbert was telling, but it's really just a thinly veiled final address to his readers and fans, to thank them.
It's obvious, even in book 1, especially in Paul's spice visions, how esoteric Herbert can be. He also makes philosophical commentary throughout subsequent books, which you may or may not like. I appreciate what he's saying, but as I'm inclined that way, I noticed that he contradicts himself in some areas (philosophically), which I venture most people would miss. In any case, it doesn't affect much, because Herbert is very good at his world building, even if it's a bit unique compared to other authors, and the messages he's conveying are genuine. Some chapters/sections get quite abstract and cerebral, which can be tough to read, but overall I definitely recommend the books.